2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

sportsfan90

Last Stop wrote: »

Finally someone talking sense.

I definitely didn't think I'd be getting a positive response from you considering I've disagreed with pretty much everything you've posted on the subject. Maybe I didn't expand my thoughts enough.

Anyway, what I meant was that the GAA are giving every advantage possible to Dublin. While this is not Dublins fault, there is a huge imbalance as a result. They're an incredible team who don't need all these unfair advantages as they'd probably win regardless where they play. But it's a question of fairness, and it's a GAA issue, not Dublin.

My suggestion of the other 7 counties nominating Croker as their home venue out of protest was that it would give the GAA a major fixtures headache that wouldn't be possible to overcome. It might finally open their eyes and give them no choice but to change the current lack of fairness.

ClanofLams

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m not arguing it’s a neutral ground, I’m arguing that it’s a game in Croke Park. That doesn’t make it a home game for Dublin as you are suggesting.
It just so happens the Dublin have played there more times. Meath have played there more times than Kerry this year so at you suggesting it’s a home game for Meath? If no then it’s back to the London argument, because of the simply geography of the country Dublin play matches closer to home. Yes no one is denying that but that does not make them designated home games.

When the Dublin football team plays at home in the league where do they play? Reality is that when Dublin footballers play games in Dublin they play in Croke Park. It is their home ground.

Arguing Parnell Park is their actual home ground because that’s been designated in some paperwork ignores reality and is willfully ignorant.

Powerhouse

ClanofLams wrote: »

Also if memory serves me correctly, there was six players on the 2018 all Ireland winning team that weren’t on the 2015 team, certainly not the same team at all. That’s significantly different than the Kerry team that won four in row in 78-81 who had the same 15 in ‘81 as ‘78 with the exception of one injury enforced change.

Am never quite sure about the value of this often-cited fact. It ignores the context. These were the ages of the Kerry team in the 1978 All-Ireland Final:

Charlie Nelligan 21

Jimmy Deenihan 26
John O'Keeffe 27
Mick Spillane 21

Paidí Ó Sé 23
Tim Kennelly 24
Paudie Lynch 26

Jack O'Shea 20
Seán Walsh 21

Ger Power 26
Denis Moran 22
Pat Spillane 22

Mikey Sheehy 24
Eoin Liston 20
John Egan 26

This was an exceptionally young Kerry team. There are not many back in 1978, I would say, who would not have expected more or less the same Kerry team to last for several years.

After all this was in an era when training was less demanding and constant and there were only fifteen games for Kerry to play to complete four in a row. Only four of these fifteen games saw Kerry held to less than a double-figure margin. Why would there be any great push to change the team? I reckon, since they had won four of the five All-Ireland Under-21 championships played directly before 1978 they would have had options if needed but they weren't.

In contrast Dublin, in 2015, had the following players on the starting team:

Denis Bastick - 34.
Bernard Brogan - 31.
Stephen Cluxton - 33.
Cian O'Sullivan - 27.
Paul Flynn - 29.
Diarmuid Connolly - 28.
Paddy Andrews - 27.
Philly MacMahon - 28.
Michael Darragh McAuley (A playing sub) was 28.
Alan Brogan (a playing sub) was 33.
Dean Rock who nobody would have considered old by any means in 2015 was older than ten of that Kerry team.

Maybe this comparison will create some perspective around this particular observation about the unchanging Kerry team, and demonstrate that Dublin's changes are to a fair extent a function of age and natural attrition.

Some key men in the current Dublin team such as O'Sullivan, Cluxton, McAuley & MacMahon have seen their 30th birthdays. If we are to assume that Dublin has an ever-springing well of interchangeable talent these players surely should be out to pasture by now?

ToBeFrank123

There's potential in that Cork team. But they were wide open at the back. Like a lot of counties they competed with Dublin for 60 minutes but once they empty the bench and with a bit more s&c plus home advantage they pull clear.

Last Stop

sportsfan90 wrote: »

I definitely didn't think I'd be getting a positive response from you considering I've disagreed with pretty much everything you've posted on the subject. Maybe I didn't expand my thoughts enough.

Anyway, what I meant was that the GAA are giving every advantage possible to Dublin. While this is not Dublins fault, there is a huge imbalance as a result. They're an incredible team who don't need all these unfair advantages as they'd probably win regardless where they play. But it's a question of fairness, and it's a GAA issue, not Dublin.

My suggestion of the other 7 counties nominating Croker as their home venue out of protest was that it would give the GAA a major fixtures headache that wouldn't be possible to overcome. It might finally open their eyes and give them no choice but to change the current lack of fairness.

And I completely agree with this. But moving Dublin’s home super 8 match out of Croke Park won’t change the fact that Dublin will play 5 other games in Croke Park to win an All Ireland through no choice of their own.

Powerhouse

sportsfan90 wrote: »

My suggestion of the other 7 counties nominating Croker as their home venue out of protest was that it would give the GAA a major fixtures headache that wouldn't be possible to overcome.

God be with the days when Kerry used to boast that their players only truly came to life in Croke Park. Now Dublin's rivals play there under protest? Not half as much fun when you're not winning is it? :rolleyes:

ToBeFrank123

Last Stop wrote: »

And I completely agree with this. But moving Dublin’s home super 8 match out of Croke Park won’t change the fact that Dublin will play 5 other games in Croke Park to win an All Ireland through no choice of their own.

The fault is mainly the GAA's who seem incapable of running a fair and balanced competition in every regard. But Dublin supporters should be honest about the advantages they have gained.

Last Stop

ClanofLams wrote: »

When the Dublin football team plays at home in the league where do they play? Reality is that when Dublin footballers play games in Dublin they play in Croke Park. It is their home ground.

Arguing Parnell Park is their actual home ground because that’s been designated in some paperwork ignores reality and is willfully ignorant.

And Kerry played most of their home league games in Tralee?
It doesn’t ignore reality; IT IS REALITY.

I’ve never once denied it is an advantage to Dublin but of all the advantages they have, this is not the biggest one.
The biggest one being that the majority of players for Dublin work/live in Dublin meaning they spend less time commuting to training etc. Compare that to the likes of Mayo where a significant number of players have to travel 3/4 hours to training and there is no doubt it effects performance. Look at Beuaden Barrett choosing to move clubs over commuting.
Throw in population and the money bias and it is clear why Dublin are winning so many football All-Ireland’s.

Happyilylost

Powerhouse wrote:

Some key men in the current Dublin team such as O'Sullivan, Cluxton, McAuley & MacMahon have seen their 30th birthdays. If we are to assume that Dublin has an ever-springing well of interchangeable talent these players surely should be out to pasture by now?

Other than Cluxton it's a stretch to say the rest are key.

bucketybuck

Powerhouse wrote: »

Some key men in the current Dublin team such as O'Sullivan, Cluxton, McAuley & MacMahon have seen their 30th birthdays. If we are to assume that Dublin has an ever-springing well of interchangeable talent these players surely should be out to pasture by now?

Thats a bit disingenuous. The likes of Connolly, the Brogans, Flynn, Bastick, McMenaman etc etc have been phased out for the likes of Small, Howard, Mannion, Costello, Murchan, O'Callaghan, but because some of the older players still remain then Dublin aren't making any changes?

Never mind that it would simply be good practice to retain older players alongside the new, its simply a fact that Dublin have organically changed their team without losing any effectiveness whatsoever.

Last Stop

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The fault is mainly the GAA's who seem incapable of running a fair and balanced competition in every regard. But Dublin supporters should be honest about the advantages they have gained.

Again completely agree with this and there is an ignorance amongst some Dublin supporters regarding the funding bias.
What should ideally happen is that similar to the US, all kit and sponsorship money is pooled and more evenly distributed amongst the counties. Even if there was 10% put back into a central pot it would make a huge difference to the smaller counties. Of course then you would have acknowledge the unofficial money (e.g. JP in Limerick) and payments to managers etc. that undermines the whole philosophy of the GAA.

BTW to clarify I’m not from Dublin :pac:

ClanofLams

Powerhouse, the point with that Kerry team v Dublin team is that Dublin have been able to replace close to half their team and be unaffected. They lost arguably the best full back in the country, they lost one of the best footballers in the country at the peak of his powers and it did not impact their dominance. In fact their most recent All Ireland was their easiest won by far

Your own post actually makes this argument. Kerry had a very young team in 1978 of exceptional footballers. The team more or less didn’t change and was good enough to win four All Irelands in a row. Dublin despite not having an especially young team in 2015 and losing some key players from that team was capable of winning four All Irelands.

The dominance of Kerry was due to an exceptional 15 or so footballers. The dominance of Dublin is rooted in unparalleled depth.

Powerhouse

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's potential in that Cork team. But they were wide open at the back. Like a lot of counties they competed with Dublin for 60 minutes but once they empty the bench and with a bit more s&c plus home advantage they pull clear.

Why does the "home advantage" kick in only after 60 minutes? Dublin led by five points going into the final quarter of the 2010 semi-final against Cork and lost. Why did home advantage not matter that day but was a factor today, do you reckon?

RedDevil55

Last Stop wrote: »

And Kerry played most of their home league games in Tralee?
It doesn’t ignore reality; IT IS REALITY.

I’ve never once denied it is an advantage to Dublin but of all the advantages they have, this is not the biggest one.
The biggest one being that the majority of players for Dublin work/live in Dublin meaning they spend less time commuting to training etc. Compare that to the likes of Mayo where a significant number of players have to travel 3/4 hours to training and there is no doubt it effects performance. Look at Beuaden Barrett choosing to move clubs over commuting.
Throw in population and the money bias and it is clear why Dublin are winning so many football All-Ireland’s.

It may not be the biggest advantage but it's the easiest one to fix. Dublin play all home league games in Croker, 2 Leinster championship games and 2 super 8 games. In all of those games they get the same dressing room and get to warm up in front of the hill.

It's completely outrageous the GAA have allowed these comforts in the national stadium.

BonnieSituation

beggars_bush wrote: »

All the Dubs 30 mimns away by public transport from Croke Park and they don't bother turning up

Jesus. You'd be doing well to get from Lucan to Croker in 30min.

ClanofLams

Last Stop wrote: »

And Kerry played most of their home league games in Tralee?
It doesn’t ignore reality; IT IS REALITY.

I’ve never once denied it is an advantage to Dublin but of all the advantages they have, this is not the biggest one.
The biggest one being that the majority of players for Dublin work/live in Dublin meaning they spend less time commuting to training etc. Compare that to the likes of Mayo where a significant number of players have to travel 3/4 hours to training and there is no doubt it effects performance. Look at Beuaden Barrett choosing to move clubs over commuting.
Throw in population and the money bias and it is clear why Dublin are winning so many football All-Ireland’s.

When is the last time Dublin played a home game out of Croke Park? Why is Parnell Park their home ground? Because that’s what written down in some paperwork filed somewhere?

Whether Kerry play in Tralee or Killarney they are playing at home, what is the relevance of that?

Powerhouse

ClanofLams wrote: »

The dominance of Kerry was due to an exceptional 15 or so footballers. The dominance of Dublin is rooted in unparalleled depth.

I made no attempt to explain either team's dominance. I simply pointed out that the exceptionally young age of that Kerry renders this particular angle of attack on Dublin less potent. I never commented on reasons for dominance at all. I just dealt with definitive facts (players' ages) as trying to answer opinions is a waste of time.

C__MC

ClanofLams wrote: »

When is the last time Dublin played a home game out of Croke Park? Why is Parnell Park their home ground? Because that’s what written down in some paperwork filed somewhere?

Whether Kerry play in Tralee or Killarney they are playing at home, what is the relevance of that?

I'm guessing 2010 or 2004. RE CHAMPIONSHIP
Last league game was 2010 I think.

jmayo

STB. wrote: »

Up to other counties to match them and stop whinging.

All of those lads have day jobs.

Would you ever just ...

As LuckyGent88 points out Dublin have a huge fooking advantage when it comes to access to their players and when it come to those players having access to the best facilities in the country.

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Generally within 30 mins of the training pitch and all work in professional environments where a lot have there own gym. That is in no way the same with a lot of other counties where long commutes to training is necessary.

In 2017 when Mayo had to replay Kerry Stephen Rochford's worry was about access to his players.

Yes because the following Mayo players lived and work in Dublin and have to make the trip across the country for training.
Tom Parsons, Seamie O'Shea, Jason Doherty, Chris Barrett, Rob Hennelly in 2017 were all working and living in Dublin.

And at the time 5 panel members: Conor Loftus, Stephen Coen, Paddy Durcan, Conor O'Shea, Diarmuid O'Connor were in college in Dublin.

I remember listening to Tom Parson talk about twice a week trips down for training and after leaving work early he would get back at nearly 1 o'clock in morning. then back in to early the next morning.
And then down at weekend or somewhere else for matches.

How many of the fooking Dublin team have to do that ?
Hell they don't even have to leave their own beds or traipse across the country to go to 90% of their championship matches.

And it isn't just Mayo, but probably most teams outside Dublin including the likes of Cork and Kerry who have players that usually have commute quite an amount for every training session.
Then if they get injured they may have to travel to get specialist treatment.

Also anyone with half a brain, bar it seems a lot of the Dubs, can see there are a lot of problems in GAA.
A lot of clubs are having problems around the country with numbers whereas new club have appeared in Dublin over the last couple of decades and the numbers of underage players is freaking massive.

Yes this Dublin team has some great players, has a very astute manager and almost professionally run county setup behind them.
But that has been achieved not alone through hard work and smart decisions, but with a shed load of money.

Claiming otherwise is like pi**ing down our backs and telling us it is raining.

Powerhouse

Happyilylost wrote: »

Other than Cluxton it's a stretch to say the rest are key.

It's just a word. Take it out if you wish. You could get a hundred people and they'd all define it differently depending on the opinion they are trying to defend.

But despite their ages they all started the match tonight in a county which is by all accounts teeming with players. It must count for something.

ClanofLams

Powerhouse wrote: »

I made no attempt to explain either team's dominance. I simply pointed out that the exceptionally young age of that Kerry renders this particular angle of attack on Dublin less potent. I never commented on reasons for dominance at all. I just dealt with definitive facts (players' ages) as trying to answer opinions is a waste of time.

Fair enough although I’m not sure what the relevance of your comment was so.

Clearly the comparison between the two four in a row runs is made to highlight the significant differences between them. One involved an exceptional team of fifteen or so footballers and the other involved an exceptional squad with such staggering depth and underlying depth outside the senior squad that the loss of key players from the first All Ireland win did not affect their dominance.

Last Stop

I think that a couple of points should be noted about this Dublin team
1. Success breathes success and the new guys coming in know exactly what is expected to win an All-Ireland plus have the drive to fit in by winning. This is a massive advantage to have and removes any egos etc.

2. The majority of teams have a life span of 6 years. 2 years on the way up. 2 years at the top and 2 years on the way down. This current Dublin team in my opinion are moving towards the end of that cycle. Yes Dublin may continue to dominate but the main team will have changed. Why I believe they are on the way down is because of the league and the way Cork and to a less extent Meath put it up to them. I know the league is meaningless etc. but remember when Dublin couldn’t be bet in the league? Also remember that the great KK team really only hit their peak in the 2010 league getting standing ovations at half time against both Tipp and Cork. Compare that to this Dublin team and it would suggest they are on the wain.

3. It is very difficult to argue that this Dublin team are the greatest football team ever. Yes they are a great team but I wouldn’t consider them the best footballers. MDM for example is incapable of scoring a simple point. Would he get in the Kerry team if he wasn’t a household name? I don’t think so. Add in the fact that they have failed to reach their full potential in an All Ireland, winning several by small margins (yes the sign of a good team) but not the sign of one of the greatest.
I think this fact highlights the problem with Dublin within the GAA in that they are about to do something 2 of the greatest teams of all time couldn’t and it is unlikely more than a handful will be picked on the team of the century despite potentially having the most medals in history.

Powerhouse

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fair enough although I’m not sure what the relevance of your comment was so.

The relevance of my comment was made clear in the post. It was meant to provide context regarding that Kerry team. The unchanging aspect of the Kerry team is often presented implicitly as a sign of a lack of options. But the age profile was remarkable. In that context and the success of the team it is less surprising that it changed so little. Dublin's team of 2015 was far more advanced in years. I just highlighted that. That's the relevance.

gaffer91

One thing to take from today is to not be sucked in by arguments about how "it was competitive for 65 minutes, Dublin just pulled away in the end" or "the scoreline wasn't a true reflection".

The fact is that because of Dublin's financial doping and other advantages, they will basically always have the beating of their opponents in the crucial last 5-10 minutes because of their professional strength and conditioning training and their ability to empty an oustanding bench of substitutes.

Last Stop

RedDevil55 wrote: »

It may not be the biggest advantage but it's the easiest one to fix. Dublin play all home league games in Croker, 2 Leinster championship games and 2 super 8 games. In all of those games they get the same dressing room and get to warm up in front of the hill.

It's completely outrageous the GAA have allowed these comforts in the national stadium.

But the GAA can only really change 1 of those championship games without being disingenuous to the other teams right to play in the national stadium

sportsfan90

Last Stop wrote: »

Again completely agree with this and there is an ignorance amongst some Dublin supporters regarding the funding bias.
What should ideally happen is that similar to the US, all kit and sponsorship money is pooled and more evenly distributed amongst the counties. Even if there was 10% put back into a central pot it would make a huge difference to the smaller counties. Of course then you would have acknowledge the unofficial money (e.g. JP in Limerick) and payments to managers etc. that undermines the whole philosophy of the GAA.

BTW to clarify I’m not from Dublin :pac:

I'm probably in the minority on this but I actually disagree with the idea of pooling and redistribution of sponsorship money. If Dublin can attract millions from AIG or Vodafone then fair play to them.

It's the money Dublin get from the GAA is what annoys me. While it's great that the game is popular in our largest city, the GAA has effectively fixed the competition so that one team has the by far the best chance of winning. And with John Horan in charge I can't any effort in changing unfortunately.

Dirkziggler

I heard it today cork fans in first 10 mins come on we have them, to them no chance we will ****ing see dublin travel outside Croker

RedDevil55

Last Stop wrote: »

But the GAA can only really change 1 of those championship games without being disingenuous to the other teams right to play in the national stadium

Then give the opposition a choice of playing the neutral game in Croke Park or an actual neutral venue. I think we all know what Roscommon would choose next week.

Powerhouse

Last Stop wrote: »

It is very difficult to argue that this Dublin team are the greatest football team ever.

On the contrary...………..it's actually very easy. It's a matter of opinion. Nobody can take that away as it can never be disproven.

Not sure talking abut a Kilkenny hurling team getting a standing ovation at half-time in a League match move the argument on very much either though?

ClanofLams

Powerhouse wrote: »

The relevance of my comment was made clear in the post. It was meant to provide context regarding that Kerry team. The unchanging aspect of the Kerry team is often presented implicitly as a sign of a lack of options. But the age profile was remarkable. In that context and the success of the team it is less surprising that it changed so little. Dublin's team of 2015 was far more advanced in years. I just highlighted that. That's the relevance.

I didn’t highlight it to suggest Kerry had a lack of options and I don’t think anyone does so.

It is highlighted to reflect that the nature of the runs were vastly different. As I have stated one involved the same group of 15 or so footballers whilst the other involved a team which had undergone substantial changes losing an all star full back, one of the best forwards in the country at his peak etc in the course of their four championships.