2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

Last Stop

ClanofLams wrote: »

When is the last time Dublin played a home game out of Croke Park? Why is Parnell Park their home ground? Because that’s what written down in some paperwork filed somewhere?

Whether Kerry play in Tralee or Killarney they are playing at home, what is the relevance of that?

The hurlers played there a few weeks ago...
Parnell Park is their home ground because it is owned by a Dublin GAA and where Dublin GAA offices are based. That is a fact.
Just because the choose to play matches in an 80,000 stadium because their home ground doesn’t meet the standards does not make it their home ground. That’s like saying Leinster's home ground is the Aviva. It isn’t.

It’s the exact same analogy and Kerry choose to designate one as their home ground when as pointed out, Tralee is their official home ground.

gaffer91

sportsfan90 wrote: »

I'm probably in the minority on this but I actually disagree with the idea of pooling and redistribution of sponsorship money. If Dublin can attract millions from AIG or Vodafone then fair play to them.

It's the money Dublin get from the GAA is what annoys me. While it's great that the game is popular in our largest city, the GAA has effectively fixed the competition so that one team has the by far the best chance of winning. And with John Horan in charge I can't any effort in changing unfortunately.

Nah the sponsorship money should be split as well. It's completely unfair to other counties for Dublin to get millions more a year. Dublin are deemed a valuable proposition by advertisers because of the GAA and its supporters in all counties, not just in Dublin, and they should see some of that money too.

Happyilylost

Last Stop wrote:

But the GAA can only really change 1 of those championship games without being disingenuous to the other teams right to play in the national stadium

Dublin should play no league game in Croke Park. They should play the Leinster Final in Croke Park if they reach it. If they reach the super eights they should play one game in Croke Park as is set by Congress. They should play an All Ireland Semi final and Final in Croke Park if they reach them. Do you know who they would be similar to then? Every other team in the country.

Powerhouse

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats a bit disingenuous. The likes of Connolly, the Brogans, Flynn, Bastick, McMenaman etc etc have been phased out for the likes of Small, Howard, Mannion, Costello, Murchan, O'Callaghan, but because some of the older players still remain then Dublin aren't making any changes?

Never mind that it would simply be good practice to retain older players alongside the new, its simply a fact that Dublin have organically changed their team without losing any effectiveness whatsoever.

Where did I say Dublin aren't making any changes? I didn't even threaten to say that. Quite the opposite in fact, I was pointing out an obvious reason why they made changes. Hard to be disingenuous about something I didn't actually say.

Last Stop

Happyilylost wrote: »

Dublin should play no league game in Croke Park. They should play the Leinster Final in Croke Park if they reach it. If they reach the super eights they should play one game in Croke Park as is set by Congress. They should play an All Ireland Semi final and Final in Croke Park if they reach them. Do you know who they would be similar to then? Every other team in the country.

By pure coincidence yes you are right.
But for the 1000th time, playing the Leinster semi finals at Croke Park is a gesture to the weaker teams not Dublin.

Last Stop

Powerhouse wrote: »

On the contrary...………..it's actually very easy. It's a matter of opinion. Nobody can take that away as it can never be disproven.

Not sure talking abut a Kilkenny hurling team getting a standing ovation at half-time in a League match move the argument on very much either though?

Well my point is that making such an argument would be going against the general consensus.

I was referring to the fact that it was only then that Kilkenny were at their peak having won 4 in a row where as Dublin appear to be slowing down since winning 3 in a row...

corny

Last Stop wrote: »

I think that a couple of points should be noted about this Dublin team
1. Success breathes success and the new guys coming in know exactly what is expected to win an All-Ireland plus have the drive to fit in by winning. This is a massive advantage to have and removes any egos etc.

2. The majority of teams have a life span of 6 years. 2 years on the way up. 2 years at the top and 2 years on the way down. This current Dublin team in my opinion are moving towards the end of that cycle. Yes Dublin may continue to dominate but the main team will have changed. Why I believe they are on the way down is because of the league and the way Cork and to a less extent Meath put it up to them. I know the league is meaningless etc. but remember when Dublin couldn’t be bet in the league? Also remember that the great KK team really only hit their peak in the 2010 league getting standing ovations at half time against both Tipp and Cork. Compare that to this Dublin team and it would suggest they are on the wain.

3. It is very difficult to argue that this Dublin team are the greatest football team ever. Yes they are a great team but I wouldn’t consider them the best footballers. MDM for example is incapable of scoring a simple point. Would he get in the Kerry team if he wasn’t a household name? I don’t think so. Add in the fact that they have failed to reach their full potential in an All Ireland, winning several by small margins (yes the sign of a good team) but not the sign of one of the greatest.
I think this fact highlights the problem with Dublin within the GAA in that they are about to do something 2 of the greatest teams of all time couldn’t and it is unlikely more than a handful will be picked on the team of the century despite potentially having the most medals in history.

All just cliched ****e talk.

ClanofLams

Last Stop wrote: »

The hurlers played there a few weeks ago...
Parnell Park is their home ground because it is owned by a Dublin GAA and where Dublin GAA offices are based. That is a fact.
Just because the choose to play matches in an 80,000 stadium because their home ground doesn’t meet the standards does not make it their home ground. That’s like saying Leinster's home ground is the Aviva. It isn’t.

It’s the exact same analogy and Kerry choose to designate one as their home ground when as pointed out, Tralee is their official home ground.

Both grounds are home grounds for Kerry, that is irrelevant.
The hurling is irrelevant too, that is not only a different team but a different sport.

Arguing a team who plays all their home games at a stadium in the heart of their city and has not played a home game anywhere else in close to a decade, has not played a home championship game anywhere else in god knows how long are not playing in a home ground on ownership grounds is wilful ignorance.

Powerhouse

ClanofLams wrote: »

I didn’t highlight it to suggest Kerry had a lack of options and I don’t think anyone does so.

It is highlighted to reflect that the nature of the runs were vastly different. As I have stated one involved the same group of 15 or so footballers whilst the other involved a team which had undergone substantial changes losing an all star full back, one of the best forwards in the country at his peak etc in the course of their four championships.

The nature of the runs actually weren't that different except that Dublin's All-Ireland Finals have been far more competitive than Kerry's. The majority of Kerry's games were cakewalks too.

The nature of the teams of players involved were different. I have proffered one very obvious explanation for this i.e. the age profile of the Kerry team versus that of Dublin. Nothing you say here contradicts that.

RedDevil55

Last Stop wrote: »

By pure coincidence yes you are right.
But for the 1000th time, playing the Leinster semi finals at Croke Park is a gesture to the weaker teams not Dublin.

Do you actually believe the Kildare players wanted to play Dublin in Croke Park over a neutral venue like Tullamore?!

Happyilylost

Last Stop wrote:

By pure coincidence yes you are right. But for the 1000th time, playing the Leinster semi finals at Croke Park is a gesture to the weaker teams not Dublin.

Maybe the weaker county should be asked whether they accept this kind gesture or not. I think I already know the answer though.

beggars_bush

What other county has made use of Croker as a home venue?
For league or championship?

None.
Because the stadium is in Dublin

Powerhouse

jmayo wrote: »

Would you ever just ...

As LuckyGent88 points out Dublin have a huge fooking advantage when it comes to access to their players and when it come to those players having access to the best facilities in the country.



In 2017 when Mayo had to replay Kerry Stephen Rochford's worry was about access to his players.

Yes because the following Mayo players lived and work in Dublin and have to make the trip across the country for training.
Tom Parsons, Seamie O'Shea, Jason Doherty, Chris Barrett, Rob Hennelly in 2017 were all working and living in Dublin.

And at the time 5 panel members: Conor Loftus, Stephen Coen, Paddy Durcan, Conor O'Shea, Diarmuid O'Connor were in college in Dublin.

I remember listening to Tom Parson talk about twice a week trips down for training and after leaving work early he would get back at nearly 1 o'clock in morning. then back in to early the next morning.
And then down at weekend or somewhere else for matches.

How many of the fooking Dublin team have to do that ?
Hell they don't even have to leave their own beds or traipse across the country to go to 90% of their championship matches.

And it isn't just Mayo, but probably most teams outside Dublin including the likes of Cork and Kerry who have players that usually have commute quite an amount for every training session.
Then if they get injured they may have to travel to get specialist treatment.

Also anyone with half a brain, bar it seems a lot of the Dubs, can see there are a lot of problems in GAA.
A lot of clubs are having problems around the country with numbers whereas new club have appeared in Dublin over the last couple of decades and the numbers of underage players is freaking massive.

Yes this Dublin team has some great players, has a very astute manager and almost professionally run county setup behind them.
But that has been achieved not alone through hard work and smart decisions, but with a shed load of money.

Claiming otherwise is like pi**ing down our backs and telling us it is raining.

Not sure there's a GAA solution for the problems you mention. Jobs for Mayo is the answer. And build a gym. And what's wrong with Galway University? How many Kerry players have to travel from Dublin to training?

ClanofLams

Powerhouse wrote: »

The nature of the runs actually weren't that different except that Dublin's All-Ireland Finals have been far more competitive than Kerry's. The majority of Kerry's games were cakewalks too.

The nature of the teams of players involved were different. I have proffered one very obvious explanation for this i.e. the age profile of the Kerry team versus that of Dublin. Nothing you say here contradicts that.

One involved more or less the same fifteen. It was one team.

The other involved a squad and different teams from the first win to the last. Dublin replaced 40% of their team losing exceptional footballers along the way. That is a level of depth which is unprecedented.

Of course Kerry were a young team when they won their first All Ireland. Otherwise there would have been more changes. This is a fairly obvious point. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Kerry would have had the capacity to do what Dublin did in replacing close to half a team and still win All Irelands. That is the fundamental difference in the nature of the two four in a rows.

doc_17

It’s a pity all them wonderful volunteers that Jim Gavin mentioned didn’t bother to try and secure a home venue for Dublin that would accommodate their 30k supporters. Just not up to the calibre of other county boards I suppose.

The only games Dublin should play in CP are the Leinster final, the AI SF and theAI Final. The super 8 concept is dead in the water. Supporters haven’t bought into it as they can’t afford to run around the country for 5 out of 6 weekends. CP barely 1/3 full. Hyde not sold out, MacCumhaill Park not sold out. Yes, Killarney will be but that should be a QF, home advantage to Kerry for winning the Munster play off.

Whole thing is a joke at this stage and the only ones defending it are Dublin. And Dick Clerkin.

BonnieSituation

RedDevil55 wrote: »

It may not be the biggest advantage but it's the easiest one to fix. Dublin play all home league games in Croker, 2 Leinster championship games and 2 super 8 games. In all of those games they get the same dressing room and get to warm up in front of the hill.

It's completely outrageous the GAA have allowed these comforts in the national stadium.

And then we did it and build a stadium and people will complain about the money "wasted on a needless stadium". Think of the children!

Nothing we do from here on in is really going to matter. So screw it.

Stoner

doc_17 wrote:

Whole thing is a joke at this stage and the only ones defending it are Dublin. And Dick Clerkin.

Is this all you can post about?

Only Donegal ran against it.

ToBeFrank123

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why does the "home advantage" kick in only after 60 minutes? Dublin led by five points going into the final quarter of the 2010 semi-final against Cork and lost. Why did home advantage not matter that day but was a factor today, do you reckon?

Home advantage is worth a minimum of 3-4 points to most teams and to a team that plays 80% of its championship games in the same stadium probably 6-7 points. Things like routine, logistics, sleeping in your own bed before a game, not having to travel far, and huge home support play a big part. Dublin play at Croker far more than any other team play at their home ground every year, yet another advantage to add to the rest.

jmayo

Powerhouse wrote: »

The nature of the runs actually weren't that different except that Dublin's All-Ireland Finals have been far more competitive than Kerry's. The majority of Kerry's games were cakewalks too.

If we are talking about the great Kerry team of 70s and 80s, that is a bullshyte statement.
In 1975 Kerry had to beat the holders Dublin.
In 1976 and 1977 they lost to Dublin.
In 1978 granted they hammered Dublin. (Great match )
In 1979 they beat Dublin again.
In 1980 they beat Roscommon who gave them a very good game.
In 1981 they beat an emergent Offaly with some fantastic players who would pip them in 1982 when going for 5 in a row.
In 1984 they beat Dublin who had won the scrap, sorry the All-Ireland, the year before.
In 1985 they beat Dublin again.
In 1986 they beat Tyrone and the game was in balance until Ger Power goal if I remember.

Yes Kerry had to play less games, but often had to overcome a tough enough Cork unit.
But who exactly were Dublin beating along the way either?
Offaly were around and got really strong in 1980 or so and then really disappeared after Matt Connors crash and it took time for Meath to arrive on scene.

Actually just looking up stats in 1979 for instance Dubin hammered Louth 4-16 to 0-4.

Powerhouse

ClanofLams wrote: »

But there is no evidence whatsoever that Kerry would have had the capacity to do what Dublin did in replacing close to half a team and still win All Irelands. That is the fundamental difference in the nature of the two four in a rows.

I still don't get why this matters but...………….no evidence that Kerry could have replaced loads of players? I would suggest there is evidence (though I wouldn't dream of arguing the value of that evidence). Kerry, as already pointed out, won four of the five All-Ireland under-21s before 1978.

But like I said, I don't really get why it matters other than to try to diminish Dublin's achievements in a more intelligent-sounding way than just parroting Ewan McKenna's funding argument.

lawred2

Anyone trying to claim Croke Park as neutral for the Dubs is talking bollocks..

And that's from someone who appreciates them. And doesn't want to see Dublin vindictively broken up.

ToBeFrank123

ClanofLams wrote: »

One involved more or less the same fifteen. It was one team.

The other involved a squad and different teams from the first win to the last. Dublin replaced 40% of their team losing exceptional footballers along the way. That is a level of depth which is unprecedented.

Of course Kerry were a young team when they won their first All Ireland. Otherwise there would have been more changes. This is a fairly obvious point. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Kerry would have had the capacity to do what Dublin did in replacing close to half a team and still win All Irelands. That is the fundamental difference in the nature of the two four in a rows.

No-one seriously buys the Dublin "Golden Generation" myth any more, just like they don't buy the "Croke Park is not Dublin's home" myth or "GDF funds don't produce a better quality and quantity of senior footballer" myth. Most people accept Dublin are where they are because of a sh1tload of money.

RedDevil55

lawred2 wrote: »

Anyone trying to claim Croke Park as neutral for the Dubs is talking bollocks..

And that's from someone who appreciates them. And doesn't want to see Dublin vindictively broken up.

Absolutely but some Dublin fans just can't seem to grasp this concept. Senan Connell was on sky today saying Dublin's home game should be moved to Parnell park to stop the moaning. Unbelievable how they refuse to address the problem!

jmayo

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure there's a GAA solution for the problems you mention. Jobs for Mayo is the answer. And build a gym. And what's wrong with Galway University? How many Kerry players have to travel from Dublin to training?

See map from 2018.
That should be explanation enough even for you.

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't normally do this but I'll make an exception...……………...you absolute F*cking flute. Read back the posts before you reply will you?

The reference in the posts was to Kerry 1978-81. Nothing more, nothing less. If want to discuss Matt Connor's crash or 1986 maybe find someone else who'll do so. FFS!

Ooh what a charming individual.:rolleyes:

I gave the list of all the All Irelands Dwyer's team won (and there were 5 that won all 8 and a few more that won at least 5 or 6).

Fast Twitch

corny wrote: »

All just cliched ****e talk.

Just because something is a cliche doesn't mean it's not true.

ClanofLams

Powerhouse wrote: »

I still don't get why this matters but...………….no evidence that Kerry could have replaced loads of players? I would suggest there is evidence (though I wouldn't dream of arguing the value of that evidence). Kerry, as already pointed out, won four of the five All-Ireland under-21s before 1978.

But like I said, I don't really get why it matters other than to try to diminish Dublin's achievements in a more intelligent-sounding way than just parroting Ewan McKenna's funding argument.

Those four U-21s would have been won with players which were on the subsequent four in a row team.

Again this actually strengthens my argument. Kerry had an exceptional team consisting of players who had exceptional success at both under age and senior level.

Dublin haven’t had a a similar level of success at underage because it is not one exceptional group of players. It is an exceptional squad with unparalleled depth both in the senior squad and layers beneath that squad.

Edit - The reasons it matters is because it an indicator of the future of football. When you combine the population advantage Dublin enjoys with a massive amount of resources the dominance Dublin has is the almost inevitable. outcome. Under the current structure, Dublin’s domination will be the norm. They will win seven/eight All Irelands per decade.

Strumms

jmayo wrote: »

Would you ever just ...

As LuckyGent88 points out Dublin have a huge fooking advantage when it comes to access to their players and when it come to those players having access to the best facilities in the country.



In 2017 when Mayo had to replay Kerry Stephen Rochford's worry was about access to his players.

Yes because the following Mayo players lived and work in Dublin and have to make the trip across the country for training.
Tom Parsons, Seamie O'Shea, Jason Doherty, Chris Barrett, Rob Hennelly in 2017 were all working and living in Dublin.

And at the time 5 panel members: Conor Loftus, Stephen Coen, Paddy Durcan, Conor O'Shea, Diarmuid O'Connor were in college in Dublin.

I remember listening to Tom Parson talk about twice a week trips down for training and after leaving work early he would get back at nearly 1 o'clock in morning. then back in to early the next morning.
And then down at weekend or somewhere else for matches.

How many of the fooking Dublin team have to do that ?
Hell they don't even have to leave their own beds

Nobody is sending them to Dublin with an m-16 pointed at their heads. They are choosing to do so, why even is neither here nor there. More than happy to travel and be facilitated in a college in the capital or employment but somehow if the capital dares to facilitate and accommodate them and 80,000 for a football game it’s discrimination and favoritism.

ArielAtom

Wow, things escalated through the night. I’m sure this can be continued in the thread that it is more suited to. Changes in the GAA super thread. Anyway good to see that debate is alive and well. I’m off to the office but will try be back later to continue, in other thread hopefully.

ThunbergsAreGo

gaffer91 wrote: »

One thing to take from today is to not be sucked in by arguments about how "it was competitive for 65 minutes, Dublin just pulled away in the end" or "the scoreline wasn't a true reflection".

The fact is that because of Dublin's financial doping and other advantages, they will basically always have the beating of their opponents in the crucial last 5-10 minutes because of their professional strength and conditioning training and their ability to empty an oustanding bench of substitutes.

Probably give PEDs motm yesterday, closely followed by money and population.......

Last Stop

lawred2 wrote: »

Anyone trying to claim Croke Park as neutral for the Dubs is talking bollocks..

And that's from someone who appreciates them. And doesn't want to see Dublin vindictively broken up.

You see thats the point, can you point to a single post where someone claims Croke Park as a neutral venue? It’s not that hard to understand, it’s a nominated home venue this week and a game in Croke Park next week. No mention of a neutral venue because when it comes to championship Dublin do not play any “neutral” games in Croke Park