2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

robbiezero

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I’d agree but I’d probably leave Tyrone in there as potentially good enough on a given day to upset the dubs, probably more so than Kerry actually. Tyrone were poor this time last year as well and went on to make the final.

Mayo truly have been hexed by injuries. I think their chance was gone anyway but there is no way they have the depth to cope with all those losses.

They did and were beaten by half-time. They probably have a chance of getting to the final again this year and I can't see any reason why the outcome would be any different to last year. As a team they are just too slow and that long ball into McShane is far too one-dimensional.

jacool

mcgragger wrote: »

In my opinion Dublin will win if they get to the final. Cant see them losing in a final.

If its Donegal v Dublin in the semi then that's the game to get them.

Could be a last 4 of Dublin Cork Kerry and Donegal.

Thats my shout.

True enough.
There's no point in even beating the Dubs in the Super 8 as they'll win the other 2 and drive on. Semi-final or burst I'd say.
Dublin's first two ties in the Super 8 are at home against a "Cork/Qual" winner, and then a neutral tie in Croke Park against Roscommon.
They won't be caught in the Super 8.

JeffKenna

jacool wrote: »

mcgragger wrote: »

In my opinion Dublin will win if they get to the final. Cant see them losing in a final.

If its Donegal v Dublin in the semi then that's the game to get them.

Could be a last 4 of Dublin Cork Kerry and Donegal.

Thats my shout.

True enough.
There's no point in even beating the Dubs in the Super 8 as they'll win the other 2 and drive on. Semi-final or burst I'd say.
Dublin's first two ties in the Super 8 are at home against a "Cork/Qual" winner, and then a neutral tie in Croke Park against Roscommon.
They won't be caught in the Super 8.

Where do they play their home games if the neutral ones are in Croke Park?

tayto lover

mcgragger wrote: »

In my opinion Dublin will win if they get to the final. Cant see them losing in a final.

If its Donegal v Dublin in the semi then that's the game to get them.

Could be a last 4 of Dublin Cork Kerry and Donegal.

Thats my shout.

Cork won’t get near it.

manofwisdom

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Mayo truly have been hexed by injuries. I think their chance was gone anyway but there is no way they have the depth to cope with all those losses.

Of the team named to start tomorrow, fives changes from the 2017 All Ireland final starting team

Michael Plunkett, Fergal Boland,Mikey Murray,Conor Loftus,Fionn McDonagh in

Colm Boyle; Seamus O’Shea, Tom Parsons,Jason Doherty, Cillian O’Connor out

Could be 12 if Horan opted to keep Doherty,Boyle in the starting line up and S O'Shea,C O'Connor could play a part on Saturday. Parsons the only one certain not to play. Diarmuid O’Connor was a sub for that final brought on after 50 minutes.




Hexed is a bit of exaggeration and when Mayo won the NFL title in April plenty was taking up their strength in depth as 2nd only to Dublin's

charlie14

tayto lover wrote: »

Cork won’t get near it.

If they meet the winner of Westmeath v Clare or Laois v Offaly I would give them a chance of making the Super 8`s.
But I agree, I cannot see them making a semi-final.

Coillte_Bhoy

charlie14 wrote: »

If they meet the winner of Westmeath v Clare or Laois v Offaly I would give them a chance of making the Super 8`s.
But I agree, I cannot see them making a semi-final.

if they win their qualifer they are in a group with Dublin, Ross, and possibly Cavan so a semi final is certainly not beyond them

RedDevil55

manofwisdom wrote: »

Of the team named to start tomorrow, fives changes from the 2017 All Ireland final starting team

Michael Plunkett, Fergal Boland,Mikey Murray,Conor Loftus,Fionn McDonagh in

Colm Boyle; Seamus O’Shea, Tom Parsons,Jason Doherty, Cillian O’Connor out

Could be 12 if Horan opted to keep Doherty,Boyle in the starting line up and S O'Shea,C O'Connor could play a part on Saturday. Parsons the only one certain not to play. Diarmuid O’Connor was a sub for that final brought on after 50 minutes.




Hexed is a bit of exaggeration and when Mayo won the NFL title in April plenty was taking up their strength in depth as 2nd only to Dublin's

We've certainly been hexed by injuries in midfield. Pointing out the starters from 2017 isn't all that relevant since it's 2 years ago now.

After the league final I think people would have said that Diarmuid and Mattie Ruane were among our most important players. Probably alongside Keegan and Aidan O'Shea.

manofwisdom

RedDevil55 wrote: »

We've certainly been hexed by injuries in midfield. Pointing out the starters from 2017 isn't all that relevant since it's 2 years ago now.

After the league final I think people would have said that Diarmuid and Mattie Ruane were among our most important players. Probably alongside Keegan and Aidan O'Shea.

It's very much relevant as the discussion is about how far Mayo can get and if they were to meet Dublin later this summer. A midfield pairing of Vaughan,A O'Shea isn't too shabby for tomorrow night. I recall plenty writing Mayo off on here after another defeat to Galway in Connacht two years ago and the less than convincing wins v Derry and Cork in the qualifiers.

Jeju

Coillte_Bhoy wrote:

if they win their qualifer they are in a group with Dublin, Ross, and possibly Cavan so a semi final is certainly not beyond them

You'd fancy the Rossies to progress from there so probably to a SF against Kerry. Conor Cox to shoot the lights out and knock out Kerry.

Bonniedog

manofwisdom wrote: »

It's very much relevant as the discussion is about how far Mayo can get and if they were to meet Dublin later this summer. A midfield pairing of Vaughan,A O'Shea isn't too shabby for tomorrow night. I recall plenty writing Mayo off on here after another defeat to Galway in Connacht two years ago and the less than convincing wins v Derry and Cork in the qualifiers.

They have proven that they have the ability to go the long way, but you would have to wonder if they might not be going to the well once too often.

I have no doubt if they do qualify and face Dublin that the sight of the blue jerseys will bring the best out of them, whereas for others it is perhaps a bit of a psychological deterrent at this stage/

charlie14

Jeju wrote: »

You'd fancy the Rossies to progress from there so probably to a SF against Kerry. Conor Cox to shoot the lights out and knock out Kerry.

Quite possible but I cannot see Dublin not topping that group.
If Roscommon should come second then to play Kerry, Kerry would have to top their group.That could be tricky if last Saturday night is a true reflection of how they are going at present

Loafing Oaf

charlie14 wrote: »

Quite possible but I cannot see Dublin not topping that group.
If Roscommon should come second then to play Kerry, Kerry would have to top their group.That could be tricky if last Saturday night is a true reflection of how they are going at present

And conversely if Kerry have got their act together to the point where they're topping the group, you'd fancy them to beat Roscommon in a semi.

PressRun

Bonniedog wrote: »

They have proven that they have the ability to go the long way, but you would have to wonder if they might not be going to the well once too often.

I have no doubt if they do qualify and face Dublin that the sight of the blue jerseys will bring the best out of them, whereas for others it is perhaps a bit of a psychological deterrent at this stage/

I don't think going to the well is the problem. I think the appetite is still there. But the injuries are a major issue. Midfield is a big problem for us now. Lose Aidan, and we're done in that area.

I honestly don't see anyone beating Dublin. I like the look of Donegal, just not convinced they're the finished article just yet, but could have an All Ireland in them at some point. Were they to meet this year, I think Dublin would slowly and methodically break them down. They have incredible composure and patience, unlike no other team tbh

Bonniedog

I was mostly referring to the injuries and the aging of key players, all relative of course.

Still, a fully fit Mayo with the O'Connors, o'Sheas, Vaughan, Keegan, Higgins et al close to form be match for most teams. And team i'd say Gavin still fears although Donegal look to have claimed pole position of pursuers.

franglan

Do we have any clues of semi final days yet? Does winner of group one (say Dublin) play 2nd in group two (say Kerry) on the Saturday? It's the second weekend in August for the semis - Sat and Sunday

doc_17

franglan wrote: »

Do we have any clues of semi final days yet? Does winner of group one (say Dublin) play 2nd in group two (say Kerry) on the Saturday? It's the second weekend in August for the semis - Sat and Sunday

No.

doc_17

No team even knows at this stage if tier first Super 8 on 12/13 July will be on the Saturday or Sunday so it’s a push to pick out a Sat/Sun for the SF.

Only thing sure at this point is that Dublin will play their first two super 8 games at home.

Bonniedog

Get onto your fkn county board delegates to congress. they voted for the fkn thing.

You have a whole thread for your whinging. This is about matches/

Sonny678

A few thoughts on the game a week later, first congrats to the Dubs. To watch this Dublin team in the flesh is a sight to behold. I have never seen such an athletic gaelic football team. And to Dublin supporters on this forum, I think this season will become the greatest sporting year of ur lifes when Dublin win the holy grail of Irish sport and become the undisputed greatest gaelic football team ever and become one of the greatest teams in Irish sport ever up there with Italia 90 Irish soccer team and Rugby grand slam winning teams. 9 leinsters in a row is a great achievement. Well done.

For Meath , the game was a strange one. It showed brillance of this Dublin team. But there is also positives for Meath. Yes forwards had a meltdown but the backs did a good job. At least 4 Meath defenders were able for the talented Dubs forwards . Next spring in the league hopefully this will help Meath in divsion 1. Meath have good natural defenders like Keoghan, McGill, Lavin Gallagher, Ryan, Harnan and Kane. Galway, Donegal and Monaghan all stayed in div 1 with being strong at the back. Its a positive that Meaths progess this year is based on their defence.

Now we need young players like Conlon and Campion to keep developing; the return of Donal lenihan and Alan Forde and hopefully two or three forwards of our under 20 tean which is on paper is are strongest in years at around this age group. We need 2 or 3 quality forwards to emerge in next 2 to 3 seasons . The next two league campaigns in spring of 2020 and the spring of 2021 will be the defining moment in this Meath teams development and McEntees tenure as manager. If Meath have two successful league campaigns in 2020 and 2021 , it will be a massive massive turning point for Meath. Stay in div 1 in 2020 will be important. Staying again up in 2021 again would be massive. If we were relegated we still sud be still have a great chance of promotion again in 2021. So we sud be in div 1 for at least 2 of next 3 seasons even if we get relegated next year.

Players peaking in 2020 and 2021 , by coincidence the return of maybe 8 panel players next year eg Lenihan , Jones , Kennelly , O Coilean , Kane , Forde, Eamon and Joey Wallace. This will increase competition for panel places. And I could see 3 or 4 maybe norw players being called up from our under 20 team. And even players like Shane Walsh at 19 have been drafted into panel this week .

What happened last sunday is the beginning not the end for this Meath team. When we got hammered in 2014 it was our third leinster final in a row and the scores were getting worse eg 2012 3 points , 2013 7 points , 2014 16 points. We hopefully play Dublin a few more times in next few years. It was McEntee and these players first game v Dublin. Of the starting 15 only 3 played v Dublin in 2016.

It took Dwyer til his fifth game v Dublin to beat them and Eugene McGee and Sean Boylan defeated Dublin at their fourth attempt. It take years and many loses before u can beat Dublin. Sunday was the beginning of McEntee and this Meaths journey. When we play Dublin in 2020 or 2021 I will come out with the auld traditional guff we will beat Dublin. Thats because when I grew up I saw Meath teams annually beat Dublin. But the truth is Meath will not beat Dublin in 2020 if we meet or 2021. If will be another 3 or 4 years at least and another 3 or 4 games down the line before Meath can toe to toe with Dublin. Its the same for kildare. Both teams need a manager and group of players to commit the next 4 or 5 years to go to war with Dublin and hopefully both teams can end up leinster champions in the years 2023 or 2024 or 2025.

Maybe they wouldn't and fail like Meath did in mid 70s and kildare in early 70s. But the only way u can be sucessful in leinster and this is for Laois Westmeath louth Offaly every county. U need a group of players led by manager who will to commit at least a half decade of their life to dethtoning Dublin. Thats what Sean Boylan and his Meath teams did in mid 80s and mid 90s , thats what Mick Dwyer and his his kildare team did in late 90s and thats what Eugene McGee and his offaly team did in the early 80s. They are the three most sucessful managers in history leinster football outside Dublin.

Meath and kildare were both hammered v Dublin. That is start. They both need to learn from this experience and when they meet Dublin next theyre sud be an improvement. Instead of losing by 16 points they sud be losing by 9 or 8 or 7 points. And then in 2021 or 2022. A better performance v Dublin and then hopefully been able to go toe toe with a Dublin in 3 or 4 years time and 3 or 4 games down the line v Dublin. Thats the way you can be sucessful in leinster. Its a long process and there is no gurantee eitheir Meath or kildare or or laois or Offaly or whoever will do this. But Meath and kildare have begun this process this summer. The next game they meet Dublin they need a better performance. Thats what they need. Another hammering would be not a good sign. But the key for both teams is division 1 football , the longer u stay in divsion one the stronger u become that is football fact.

Sonny678

Just regard leinster football. I put this up before so I am going to put it again.So sorry for the repetition but I think leinster football is not the only provience that has being trouble, Munster has been problem provience for long time, but people seem to ignore this fact. Anyway the below explains what I mean.

This is the most uncompetitive leinster championship in 130 years. Meath are having their worst decade since 1920s. Kildare are also having one of their worst decades ( along with the 1980s) since 1920s. Offaly are having their worst decade since 1950s , since before they emerged on the football scene. Laois are having their worst decade since 1970s. While louth are going up and down divisions 4 3 2 yearly. Wicklow are stuck in division 4 after a good decade in the 00s. While Wexford are back in div 4 after having their best decade since the 40s in the 00s.

Only Dublin with their greatest team ever, Carlow having their best period in 30 years, Westmeath are having solid period with their first ever consecutive leinster finals appearances in a row and Longford are also making solid progess.

But overall this decade is an all time low for leinster football. Dublin havent had to face strong division 1 opposition ( a team in division 1 year after year) since early 00s. Compared to early 90s when you had 4 top division 1 teams in the proviences all wining leinster titles and playing in national finals . Compared to every decade or era when you had at least two top division 1 teams in leinster winning leinster titles and winning or at least reaching an All Ireland final. Its 17 years since a leinster team other then Dublin reached a All Ireland final. That has never happened before. So Tomas is right there.

But the issue I have is people forgot or ignored that you could also say Munster football has been in the same situation for generations as leinster is currently. Kerry have dominated Munster football pretty much for 100 years the same way Dublin r dominating leinster football at the moment. He says leinster teams are beating before they ever enter the field v Dublin. You could say the same thing about Kerry in Munster for 100 years. There is an aura surrounding kerry down South where the rest in Munster for generations dont believe they can beat the kingdom.

Yes Tipp and Clare are making good progress recently . But will they beat kerry in a Munster final in the next 4 or 5 years. Theres no gurantee they will. Tipp havent won a Munster title in 80 years, Clare have won 1 Munster title in 90 years and limerick havent won a Munster title in 120 years. Waterford havent won a Munster title in 120 years also their only Munster title. That doesnt make for a very competitive Munster championship since 1900. The Munster championship has been won by Kerry or Cork every year since 1923 with the exception of victories by Tipperary in 1935 and Clare in 1992. Watterford havent beaten Kerry in Munster championship in 60 years. Tipperary havent beaten Kerry in the Munster championship in 91 years. And Limerick havent beaten Kerry in the Munster championship in 120 years. Clare have beaten Kerry once in the Munster championship in 80 years.

Look at the below stats, look at Kerrys sucess rate in Munster

1920s: 6 for Kerry (1923-24-25-26-27-29)
1930s: 9 for Kerry (1930-31-32-33-34-36-37-38-39)
1940s: 7 for Kerry (1940-41-42-44-46-47-48)
1950s: 7 for Kerry (1950-51-53-54-55-58-59)
1960s: 8 for Kerry (1960-61-62-63-64-65-68-69)
1970s: 7 for Kerry (1970-72-75-76-77-78-79)
1980s: 6 for Kerry (1980-81-82-84-85-86)
1990s: 5 for Cork (1990-93-94-95-99)
2000s: 6 for Kerry (2000-01-03-04-05-07)
2010s: 7 for Kerry (2010-11-13-14-15-16-17)

Then you take Cork. Cork and Kerry is the biggest myth of a rivalry in GAA. Most rivalries both teams have periods of domination or sucess over the other. Kilkenny and Tipp have great battles where supremacy swings from one to another. Mayo and Galway is very 50 50 rivalry if u take out Galways All Ireland wins. Mayo are sucessful for years then Galway are sucessful. The same with Meath and Dublin. For 80 years Meath went toe to toe with Dublin until this decade. For years Dublin teams couldnt beat Meath teams year after year ( Late 40s , late 50s, 60s, late 80s, late 90s) and for years Meath couldnt beat Dublin teams ( Late 50s, Late 70s, Early 80s, mid 90s , 00s ). Meath won 7 All Irelands to Dublins 9 in that 80 year period. With Meath having the same sucess rate as Dublin in 40s 50s 60s ( 1 All Ireland win each in each decade) and Dublin being more sucessful in 70s ( 3 All Irelands) and Meath more sucessful in 80s and 90s (Meath 4 All Irelands to Dublins 2). A very equal rivalry until this decade.

But with the exception of the late 80s and early 90s Cork have been second best to kerry since Independence. Kerry were the dominate force in Munster football in the 1920s, 30s,40s,50s,60s, 70s, early 1980s and 00s and this decade. There is the odd Cork year of sucess in between eg 1973 but overall you take out late 80s and early 90s , and pretty much for 90% of the last 100 years kerry have been top dog in Munster. Kerry always play up how how Cork good are. And they need a Cork Munster final to prepare them for the championship outside Munster.

There is no love lost between kerry and Cork and a Munster final with Cork and Kerry in killarney or Pairc ui Chaoimh is always a grand occasion. But usually always kerry win. look at how Cork couldnt beat kerry in Croke Park in 00s. Cork is a masive football county. Has more football clubs then kerry. Yet for many Cork GAA people hurling is number 1. Been defeated kerry yearly probaly meant Cork hurling is held in higher esteem down south. Cork for all their resources should be on double the All Irelands at least and double the Munster titles. But kerry have had them in metal vice grip for generations. And at the moment Cork are at their lowest since 1950s. That was the last time they were in divsion 2 and been beating by Tipp in the championship.

So when people says Leinster foot all is a joke he is right. But if you put the same criteria to Munster football, that teams in Munster are beaten before they ever enter the field v kerry. Is Munster football a bigger joke for a longer period. Am I been harsh on Munster.

Also there also being periods when Connacht and Ulster were one sided and had lean years. From 1900 to 1960 with the odd Antrim victory , Cavan dominated Ulster . Winning 20 or so Ulster tiltles out of maybe 21. Cavan had the same aura , Dublin have at the moment were teams were beaten before they entered the field for half century v Cavan teams in Ulster.

Down changed that in the 60s. While in the 70s and 80s Ulster football was very uncompetitive when teams came out of the province. It must be said there was conflict , a war basically in the north so that made it almost impossible for Ulster teams to prepare properly. Since 1990s the best teams, best players, best tactics, best managers have come from Ulster and it has became the strongest provience. With Down Donegal Derry Tyrone and Armgh all winning Sam. However with 4 All Ireland wins in the 90s and 4 more in the 00s. Ulster has only won 1 All Ireland in this decade so far. So has the provience of Ulster somewhat declined in this decade so far.

In Connacht the 1970s 80s and early 90s, Connacht championship was seen as weak also. However particularly Mayo have risen Connacht football promience in the game in the last 20 years. And Connacht teams at the moment have 3 top division 1 teams with Mayo Galway and Roscommon. But the fact is in the last 50 years Connacht teams have only won 2 All Irelands to Ulsters 10 All Ireland titles and Munsters 21 All Ireland titles and leinsters 17 All Ireland titles in the same time period.

All the proviences have had very bad periods and lean years. leinster is just having its least competitive currently. But even though there is a less sense of togetherness in leinster then Connacht or Ulster in the GAA. This decade will show that Ulster have won 1 All Ireland, Munster have won 1 All Ireland and leinster have won 6 All Irelands so far.

bucketybuck

Ulster has only won 1 All Ireland in this decade so far. So has the provience of Ulster somewhat declined in this decade so far.

Without getting into the bigger argument, it must be pointed out that if on one hand you are lauding the greatest team ever to play football, then you can't on the other hand decry provinces for winning less All-Irelands this decade.

Are Ulster teams of lower quality this decade than they were in the two previous? Perhaps they are. But if Dublin are as dominant as everybody knows they are then those Ulster teams could have been much better and still not won any All-Irelands.

I don't really disagree with much of what you were saying, but All-Irelands per decade aren't really a useful indicator when there is such a dominant fish in the bowl, it really does skew that stat a lot.

The_Honeybadger

I don’t think people have forgotten or ignored how bad Munster is sonny, they generally feel it is as bad as Leinster.

Cork put up a decent fight on Saturday but Kerry had a few more gears, we saw this once they went down to fourteen. There is no competition there until Cork improves. Clare and Tipp will always struggle to develop to their potential because of their hurling teams.

Fan of Netflix

Prediction time

I'll go

Clare
Tyrone
Armagh
Laois

Obviously Mayo are favs against Armagh but I think there may be an upset, Mayo have a lot of injuries it appears. Question marks on Armagh defence though and how they hold up in the latter stages.

Fan of Netflix

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I don’t think people have forgotten or ignored how bad Munster is sonny, they generally feel it is as bad as Leinster.

Cork put up a decent fight on Saturday but Kerry had a few more gears, we saw this once they went down to fourteen. There is no competition there until Cork improves. Clare and Tipp will always struggle to develop to their potential because of their hurling teams.

Clare are a better team than Cork in my opinion. I'm not sure where all this talk of Cork is coming from, they haven't really done anything to justify it. Clare have been plugging away for several years and are still in division 2. Clare are the value bet of the weekend against Westmeath also. Been shortened but 13/10 still good value.

munster87

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Prediction time

I'll go

Clare
Tyrone
Armagh
Laois

Obviously Mayo are favs against Armagh but I think there may be an upset, Mayo have a lot of injuries it appears. Question marks on Armagh defence though and how they hold up in the latter stages.

I’ve the same 4. Armagh being the clear underdog choice odds wise

Coillte_Bhoy

Jeju wrote: »

You'd fancy the Rossies to progress from there so probably to a SF against Kerry. Conor Cox to shoot the lights out and knock out Kerry.

Well, depends on the draw obviously but i really wouldnt fancy them, i think they are very average at best, Mayo really should have beaten them and Galway for whatever reason took the foot off when they were 5 points up. Now those wins will probably have a galvanising effect on the team and they may well up their game in the Super 8's, and they certainly need to if they are entertaining any hopes of a semi final spot.

Loafing Oaf

Malachy Clerkin in the Times fancies Kildare:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/could-we-see-the-end-of-the-road-for-a-manager-in-the-kildare-v-tyrone-clash-1.3940671

Tyrone went back to brass tacks against Longford, dropping a phalanx back deep and leaving Cathal McShane up on his own. Kildare would not necessarily mind a repeat of that here – they have improved steadily against defensive teams throughout O’Neill’s time in charge. It also implies a level of uncertainty in the Tyrone camp that they can take advantage of.

Anyone else see a case for them?

The_Honeybadger

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Malachy Clerkin in the Times fancies Kildare:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/could-we-see-the-end-of-the-road-for-a-manager-in-the-kildare-v-tyrone-clash-1.3940671


Anyone else see a case for them?

They can do it but I don’t think they will.

The_Honeybadger

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Clare are a better team than Cork in my opinion. I'm not sure where all this talk of Cork is coming from, they haven't really done anything to justify it. Clare have been plugging away for several years and are still in division 2. Clare are the value bet of the weekend against Westmeath also. Been shortened but 13/10 still good value.

They probably are at the moment. If cork got organised and people get behind the team I think their ceiling is much higher though. The footballers should be there, they are always good at underage level.