Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

sk8erboii

Lmfao what a cesspool of a thread
‘Liberals are responsible for anti semitism!’

I really want to see the people who posts these in real life. And im guessing they’re the types you’d call lowlives and scumbags

Danzy

Pter wrote: »

Mod

Substantiate this or dont come back into this thread.

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/277657/what-the-eu-survey-reveals-about-european-anti-semitism

A survey from the EU Agency on Fundamental rights.

That such a post as mine is even considered contentious at this stage is pretty amazing.

None so blind as ..., denial is not just...

That you had to ask is mind ****ing blowing.

Grayson

PinotNero wrote: »

I'm not denying any of that but saying only Muslims and the "Left" are the causes of modern anti-semitism is nonsense.
Much of the anti-semitism in Eastern Europe is down to right wing ultra nationalist groups.
In Western Europe there are many Neo-Nazi and fascist groups which are deeply hostile to Jews and Judaism.

The thing is that the neo nazi's in europe could be described as resurgent. So there were a few decades where it would have been far left groups that were mainly responsible.

However, in the last 10 years we have seen a resurgence in the far right. Pretty much all the anti semitism across eastern europe can be laid at their doorstep. The same can be said for places like the US.

There's been a lot off cross community cooperation between muslim and jewish religious leaders in many countries because the far right target both.

Danzy

super_furry wrote: »

Absolutely not, but there is a significant part of the international pro-Israeli lobby that leaps to conflate criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism.

There is and they really run with it, there is also a significant enough problem though of real antisemitism to give them never ending ammo and for the public to nod their head.

Wibbs

PinotNero wrote: »

I'm not denying any of that but saying only Muslims and the "Left" are the causes of modern anti-semitism is nonsense.
Much of the anti-semitism in Eastern Europe is down to right wing ultra nationalist groups.
In Western Europe there are many Neo-Nazi and fascist groups which are deeply hostile to Jews and Judaism.

Sure, but the other poster didn't say causes, they said sources. Bit of a difference. They also said they were the two main sources, which I don't agree with. While antisemitism is a broad church across different politics it's generally more a hard right wing thing and while it was once very much Christian Islam has certainly caught up, particular in the largely secular countries of Europe.

Baggly

Danzy wrote: »

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/277657/what-the-eu-survey-reveals-about-european-anti-semitism

A survey from the EU Agency on Fundamental rights.

That such a post as mine is even considered contentious at this stage is pretty amazing.

None so blind as ..., denial is not just...

That you had to ask is mind ****ing blowing.

Mod

You think people shouldnt have to substantiate one liner comments in your posts? From your follow up, i can see you are capable of doing it, so were you just being lazy before?

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt on your veiled insults above, but cop yourself on going forward, wont you?

1641

sk8erboii wrote: »

Lmfao what a cesspool of a thread
‘Liberals are responsible for anti semitism!’

I really want to see the people who posts these in real life. And im guessing they’re the types you’d call lowlives and scumbags

I haven't noticed anyone claiming this. Some have referenced the hard left, some the hard right, some islamic, and some all 3. I didn't notice the ones that claimed that Liberals are responsible.

Infini

Human Stupidity: The Cancer of Existence.

Really wish people would stop believing all this conspiracy crap 99% of the time these days its just àssholes stiring shìt up. Jews hardly did anything most of the time its always said àssholes scapegoating to deflect from their own ****ups.

sk8erboii

1641 wrote: »

I haven't noticed anyone claiming this. Some have referenced the hard left, some the hard right, some islamic, and some all 3. I didn't notice the ones that claimed that Liberals are responsible.

Ah yes, wordplay, the bastion of afterhours.

Wibbs

sk8erboii wrote: »

Ah yes, wordplay, the bastion of afterhours.

or debate, though I can see how some might be confused. For fun and frolics please point out the posts where someone said "Liberals are responsible for anti semitism!", or just do the usual veiled and not so veiled insults at anyone who doesn't subscribe to your worldview.

Grayson

Infini wrote: »

Human Stupidity: The Cancer of Existence.

Really wish people would stop believing all this conspiracy crap 99% of the time these days its just àssholes stiring shìt up. Jews hardly did anything most of the time its always said àssholes scapegoating to deflect from their own ****ups.

And it's weird because of the three types that are mentioned here, they each have different causes. In some ways the left leaning ones have more incommon with the islamic ones. Until relatively recently there was next to no anti semitism against French jews by muslims. It has its roots in the geopolitical landscape more than religion. Not to say there aren't religious parts to it but it's mainly since the war on terror and the flare ups in the israel palestine conflict. They're not thinking of racial purity or any of the other conspiracy crap that the right wing believe in.

The same goes for the left. It's more grounded in the israeli palestinian conflict with a bit of conspiracy thrown in. It's all globalists type crap. But there's pretty much no religious aspect to it.

Whereas the right wing has everything from conspiracy theories about global domination and cultural marxism to racial purity. There's also christian overtones to a lot of it and you'll find a lot of the anti semites on the right believe they are protecting european/christian purity and values.

suicide_circus

markodaly wrote: »

The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.

There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.

the problem with that argument is that anyone who voices concerns about Israeli government policy is inveriably accused of antisemitism.

so which is it?

Wibbs

suicide_circus wrote: »

the problem with that argument is that anyone who voices concerns about Israeli government policy is inveriably accused of antisemitism.

so which is it?

It's a difficult one SC, because it often is antisemitism, so can be hard to tease it out. Never mind that it's politically advantageous for some in the Israeli government to always and immediately label it as antisemitic any time questions are raised about Israeli government policies.

Hell, I've seen it levelled at Jews if they raise questions. Well often it's twisted into "well, you don't understand because you don't live here"(if they don't) or they get described as "self hating". And there are quite the number of Jews inside Israel and across the rest of the world that do have concerns. They can be afraid to voice them though for obvious reasons. They don't want to add fuel to the fire of both Israeli government spin and antisemites. Rock --- them --- Hard place. Easier to remain silent.

Baggly

Ill let one of the other mods step in to mod the thread and ill take part going forward.

Wibbs wrote: »

It's a difficult one SC, because it often is antisemitism, so can be hard to tease it out. Never mind that it's politically advantageous for some in the Israeli government to always and immediately label it as antisemitic any time questions are raised about Israeli government policies.

Hell, I've seen it levelled at Jews if they raise questions. Well often it's twisted into "well, you don't understand because you don't live here"(if they don't) or they get described as "self hating". And there are quite the number of Jews inside Israel and across the rest of the world that do have concerns. They can be afraid to voice them though for obvious reasons. They don't want to add fuel to the fire of both Israeli government spin and antisemites. Rock --- them --- Hard place. Easier to remain silent.

How can you possibly know the bolded bit?

In fact, you are presenting a lot of facts in the above post Wibbs - and for my education, at least, id love for you to show your sources rather than just hope we accept your word as sacrosanct.

How the heck can you suggest you know what Jews in Israel who are afraid to voice their concerns think?

Chris_Heilong

I get it when some people are criticising Israel or whatever but it always surprises me that people in Ireland have any opinion on Jewish people, I mean we are not really in contact with them and they seem harmless enough.

Wibbs

Pter wrote: »

How can you possibly know the bolded bit?

Are you honestly trying to suggest that criticism of Israel doesn't often mask antisemitic overtones? Really?

Wibbs

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I get it when some people are criticising Israel or whatever but it always surprises me that people in Ireland have any opinion on Jewish people, I mean we are not really in contact with them and they seem harmless enough.

There used to be more and Jews have a long history in Ireland, but there are a fair number of Irish Jews living here. A couple of thousand anyway, mostly in Dublin in fairness.

Baggly

Wibbs wrote: »

Are you honestly trying to suggest that criticism of Israel doesn't often mask antisemitic overtones? Really?

Im trying to understand how you can speak with the authority you are trying to speak with.

I, for one, am able to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic, so i want to know how you know that it is often fueled by antisemitism.

Grayson

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I get it when some people are criticising Israel or whatever but it always surprises me that people in Ireland have any opinion on Jewish people, I mean we are not really in contact with them and they seem harmless enough.

I love Dara O'Brians joke about a jew in cork. He asked in a show what year it was in the jewish calendar and she answered "the jewish year of the rat".


I worked with an english jewish girl in Dublin. I said happy Hanukkah to her and she said "It's Hanukkah?". She and her family were not even vaguely religious. It was really just a kind of cultural thing.

Danzy

Pter wrote: »

Mod

You think people shouldnt have to substantiate one liner comments in your posts? From your follow up, i can see you are capable of doing it, so were you just being lazy before?

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt on your veiled insults above, but cop yourself on going forward, wont you?

It hardly seemed necessary to point out that the 2 biggest sources of antisemitism in Europe today emanate from the Left and Islam.

Suppose not all in this forum follow politics or the news.

They weren't insults veiled or otherwise.

Baggly

Danzy wrote: »

It hardly seemed necessary to point out that the 2 biggest sources of antisemitism in Europe today emanate from the Left and Islam.

Suppose not all in this forum follow politics or the news.

They weren't insults veiled or otherwise.

Well i dont think your first point is true to be honest, as others have also pointed out.

I suppose not everyone else does, no.

Ok so.

Wibbs

Pter wrote: »

In fact, you are presenting a lot of facts in the above post Wibbs - and for my education, at least, id love for you to show your sources rather than just hope we accept your word as sacrosanct.

How the heck can you suggest you know what Jews in Israel who are afraid to voice their concerns think?

For your delectation and from the The New York Jewish Weekly speaking around this subject.

Bits of interest:

The broad brush of criticism often begins with the implication that diaspora Jews ought not to be questioning Israeli government statements AKA "well you don't live here" stuff I referenced above.

Where once a robust dialogue involving world Jewry and its Israel partners had been encouraged and nurtured, today many wish to impose a veil of silence. "veil of silence" AKA Easier to stay silent stuff that I also referenced.

"Sacrosanct" enough for you? This is hardly news BTW, this kinda dialogue has been going on for decades within the wider world Jewish community and within Israel.

James Brown

Danzy wrote: »

It hardly seemed necessary to point out that the 2 biggest sources of antisemitism in Europe today emanate from the Left and Islam.

Suppose not all in this forum follow politics or the news.

They weren't insults veiled or otherwise.

Can you show this? What left wing country clubs do you know that refuse people of the Jewish faith membership?
The blaming it all on the left is a ruse. The whole point of 'the left' is equality. Of course there are extremes as with everything.

Baggly

Wibbs wrote: »

"Sacrosanct" enough for you? This is hardly news BTW, this kinda dialogue has been going on for decades within the wider world Jewish community and within Israel.

Your opinions are never too important or valuable to be interefered with, Wibbs. Noones are, tbh.

Thank you for the source. Ill read it and learn something beyond your opinion on the matter, now.

Wibbs

Pter wrote: »

Im trying to understand how you can speak with the authority you are trying to speak with.

I, for one, am able to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic, so i want to know how you know that it is often fueled by antisemitism.

Oh well that's just brilliant logic there. You can criticise Israel and not be anti semitic, so it naturally follows it can't be fuelled by anti semitism in others. Again, Really? As a Yiddish speaker might say to that; Oy vey.

Baggly

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh well that's just brilliant logic there. You can criticise Israel and not be anti semitic, so it naturally follows it can't be fuelled by anti semitism in others. Again, Really? As a Yiddish speaker might say to that; Oy vey.

Thats not my logic at all and i hope you know that and are just being facetious.

If its possible for me to not be anti-semitic, its possible for others to as well. Im asking you to dispel that possibility with something other than your sayso.

You accused another in this thread of not liking an alternative viewpoint. Im actually just trying to explore yours and you dont seem happy about it, nor actually willing to engage.

James Brown

1641 wrote: »

Yes, Israel can go overboard with the anti semitism defence. But they are confronting an enemy in Hamas who are blatantly anti semite and who seem little interested in peace. I am not equating Hamas with all Palestinian people, or even all Palestinian people in Gaza. Hamas will tolerate no dissenting views.
It is strange that no anti Israelis call out the treatment of indiginous Jewish people in Arab lands after 1948. The pograms there are ignored, and the forced eviction . How would Jews be treated there now? Better or worse than Arabs in Israel?
Israel can rightly be criticised. But it is complex situation with wrong on both sides. Is a lot of the one-sided criticism of Israel not an out-growth of anti semitism?
And the actions of Israel reflect on Israel , not Jews in general or the "Jewish faith".

Do you think Hamas would be 'blatantly anti semite' if Palestinians weren't persecuted and murdered by the Israeli state?
No. You'll find critisism of Israel goes beyond, 'they look shifty'.
Tell that to BibI.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Of course it is growing. And in some instances, it is being supported tacitly by politicians.

Look at the Labour Party in the UK? Riven with Anti-Semitism that "Dear Leader" refuses to deal with. He had the chance years ago to get tough and nip it in the bud but chose to whitewash it by commissioning the Sham(i) Report that spent more time moaning about Islamophobia than Anti-Semitism!

Show one example.

Wibbs

Pter wrote: »

Your opinions are never too important or valuable to be interefered with, Wibbs. Noones are, tbh.

Who said they were Ted? Though one would hope for better "interference" than is all too often on display.

Thank you for the source. Ill read it and learn something beyond your opinion on the matter, now.

It might help. Oh and if you do some more googling you'll tend to find my opinions tend to be based on those pesky things called facts. Most pretty universally known facts too.

RWCNT

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can you show this? What left wing country clubs do you know that refuse people of the Jewish faith membership?
The blaming it all on the left is a ruse. The whole point of 'the left' is equality. Of course there are extremes as with everything.

They provided a source a page or two back. I have some misgivings with it, but it's there.

Baggly

Wibbs wrote: »

Who said they were Ted? Though one would hope for better "interference" than is all too often on display.

It might help. Oh and if you do some more googling you'll tend to find my opinions tend to be based on those pesky things called facts. Most pretty universally known facts too.

This post is just heaps of petty Wibbs. Im trying to discuss this with you and your last couple of posts have been of the level you seem to be criticising me of in this quoted post.

1641

Here is a piece from a New York Times article about conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. The article relates to Corbyn and Labour but it can be read more generally:

"There’s nothing anti-Semitic about sympathy for the Palestinian cause or support of Palestinian statehood or disdain for the rightist government of the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and its kick-the-can policies to prolong or eternize the occupation of the West Bank. That should be obvious.
But where anti-Zionism crosses into anti-Semitism should also be obvious: dehumanizing or demonizing Jews and propagating the myth of their sinister omnipotence; accusing Jews of double loyalties as a means to suggest their national belonging is of lesser worth; denying the Jewish people’s right to self-determination; blaming through conflation all Jews for the policies of the Israeli government; pursuing the systematic “Nazification” of Israel; turning Zionism into a synonym of racism.

The denial of the millennial Jewish link to the Holy Land and the dismissal of the legal basis for the modern Jewish state in United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947 (Arab armies went to war against its Palestinian-Jewish territorial compromise and lost) as a means to argue for the abolition of the Jewish homeland and portray it as an immoral, colonial exercise in theft often flirts with anti-Semitism. It is at its most egregious when it issues from Europeans who seem to have forgotten where the Holocaust was perpetrated. Once in the gas chambers was enough for the Jews."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/opinion/corbyn-berger-anti-semitism.html

I would myself add where criticism of Israel is exclusive and repetitive without any acknowledgement of the threat to their existence that they face from the uncomprimising Hamas and their allies.

Anyone who doesn't think that criticism of Israel often is a cover for anti-semetism and/or doesn't think that Israel like to use the argument turned around to deflect any criticism has little credibility in any discussion on Israel or anti-semetism.

Baggly

Lol Button if thats a sideswipe at me, ill take it, but only because its grossly misplaced.

I dont get why people are objecting to requests for substantiation of points. I havent even disagreed with Wibbs - ive literally just asked him to substantiate his points!

Igotadose

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Do you think Hamas would be 'blatantly anti semite' if Palestinians weren't persecuted and murdered by the Israeli state?
No. You'll find critisism of Israel goes beyond, 'they look shifty'.
Tell that to BibI.

Uhh, yeah, I can just see Hamas being the most tolerant and cooperative bunch of lads should the hostilities drop off. But do tell, how with Hamas launching rockets and goading their followers into attacking troops, will this happen? And if Hamas backs off, what do you think their Iranian backers will do to them?

Pter

Pter wrote: »

Lol Button if thats a sideswipe at me, ill take it, but only because its grossly misplaced.

I dont get why people are objecting to requests for substantiation of points. I havent even disagreed with Wibbs - ive literally just asked him to substantiate his points!

It's facetious in the extreme to ask someone to substantiate something so well known and obvious.

Wibbs

Pter wrote: »

Thats not my logic at all and i hope you know that and are just being facetious.

I'm just reading what you're writing.

If its possible for me to not be anti-semitic, its possible for others to as well.

You don't say... Of course it is. Jesus. You may have missed the part where I said "often", not "always", not "never".

You accused another in this thread of not liking an alternative viewpoint. Im actually just trying to explore yours and you dont seem happy about it, nor actually willing to engage.

Their "alternative viewpoint" consisted of calling other posters "lowlives"(sic) and "scumbags" in a "cesspool" of a thread. Cicero would be proud...

And I'm perfectly happy and happy to engage and have done and even provided links for fairly obvious stuff for anyone with even a passing interest in the matter. See. Now. Me. Engaging. As for petty, being honest it's more akin to mild exasperation in needing to point out the obvious.

cameramonkey

1641 wrote: »

Here is a piece from a New York Times article about conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. The article relates to Corbyn and Labour but it can be read more generally:

"There’s nothing anti-Semitic about sympathy for the Palestinian cause or support of Palestinian statehood or disdain for the rightist government of the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and its kick-the-can policies to prolong or eternize the occupation of the West Bank. That should be obvious.
But where anti-Zionism crosses into anti-Semitism should also be obvious: dehumanizing or demonizing Jews and propagating the myth of their sinister omnipotence; accusing Jews of double loyalties as a means to suggest their national belonging is of lesser worth; denying the Jewish people’s right to self-determination; blaming through conflation all Jews for the policies of the Israeli government; pursuing the systematic “Nazification” of Israel; turning Zionism into a synonym of racism.

The denial of the millennial Jewish link to the Holy Land and the dismissal of the legal basis for the modern Jewish state in United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947 (Arab armies went to war against its Palestinian-Jewish territorial compromise and lost) as a means to argue for the abolition of the Jewish homeland and portray it as an immoral, colonial exercise in theft often flirts with anti-Semitism. It is at its most egregious when it issues from Europeans who seem to have forgotten where the Holocaust was perpetrated. Once in the gas chambers was enough for the Jews."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/opinion/corbyn-berger-anti-semitism.html

I would myself add where criticism of Israel is exclusive and repetitive without any acknowledgement of the threat to their existence that they face from the uncomprimising Hamas and their allies.

Do you really think Hamas pose a threat to the existence of Israel?

They have no serious military capacity, have you seen the balloons with firebombs attached or the tin can rockets they fire?


How do you think Hamas could possibly threaten Israel?

Baggly

Deleted User wrote: »

It's facetious in the extreme to ask someone to substantiate something so well known and obvious.

Its not at all! Im trying to learn! And since people on this thread seem to know whats going on, i want to learn what they have learned (from source).

Of course i can google the topic in general, but ill get a myriad of sh!te in the results and (most likely) a lot of propaganda from both sides of the divide! Why wouldnt i ask yourself or Wibbs or anyone else to let me read what you have read?

Franz Von Peppercorn

1641 wrote: »

Here is a piece from a New York Times article about conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. The article relates to Corbyn and Labour but it can be read more generally:

"There’s nothing anti-Semitic about sympathy for the Palestinian cause or support of Palestinian statehood or disdain for the rightist government of the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and its kick-the-can policies to prolong or eternize the occupation of the West Bank. That should be obvious.
But where anti-Zionism crosses into anti-Semitism should also be obvious: dehumanizing or demonizing Jews and propagating the myth of their sinister omnipotence; accusing Jews of double loyalties as a means to suggest their national belonging is of lesser worth; denying the Jewish people’s right to self-determination; blaming through conflation all Jews for the policies of the Israeli government; pursuing the systematic “Nazification” of Israel; turning Zionism into a synonym of racism.

The denial of the millennial Jewish link to the Holy Land and the dismissal of the legal basis for the modern Jewish state in United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947 (Arab armies went to war against its Palestinian-Jewish territorial compromise and lost) as a means to argue for the abolition of the Jewish homeland and portray it as an immoral, colonial exercise in theft often flirts with anti-Semitism. It is at its most egregious when it issues from Europeans who seem to have forgotten where the Holocaust was perpetrated. Once in the gas chambers was enough for the Jews."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/opinion/corbyn-berger-anti-semitism.html

I would myself add where criticism of Israel is exclusive and repetitive without any acknowledgement of the threat to their existence that they face from the uncomprimising Hamas and their allies.

The threat to Israel is probably the lesser of the threats to the people in the area. Sure hamas blusters a bit. There are lots of threats to the Palestinians from Israeli politicians and that’s probably more likely to be an actual existential threat.

Baggly

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm just reading what you're writing.

Right.

Wibbs wrote: »

You don't say... Of course it is. Jesus. You may have missed the part where I said "often", not "always", not "never".

And i wanted to know why you said often and not 'rarely' or 'sometimes'. Its not an unreasonable thing to ask.

Wibbs wrote: »

Their "alternative viewpoint" consisted of calling other posters "lowlives"(sic) and "scumbags" in a "cesspool" of a thread. Cicero would be proud...

Maybe i misread that post but he posted 'you'd', not 'one would'. I thought he was inferring hypocrisy on you, rather that calling you the names quoted.

Wibbs wrote: »

And I'm perfectly happy and happy to engage and have done and even provided links for fairly obvious stuff for anyone with even a passing interest in the matter. See. Now. Me. Engaging. As for petty, being honest it's more akin to mild exasperation in needing to point out the obvious.

Well for someone happy to engage you sure have posted a lot of sly little remarks. In fact the quote above has a few of them, as an example.

God Wibbs, for someone who was extolling the virtues of always being able to question historical events (which you did in this thread), are you now turning around saying that obvious things shouldn't need to be substantiated?

Wibbs

1641 wrote: »

I would myself add where criticism of Israel is exclusive and repetitive without any acknowledgement of the threat to their existence that they face from the uncomprimising Hamas and their allies.

+1, but let's face it 1641 that part of the world and its politics and religions has been a shit show for literally thousands of years with precious few groups without blood on their hands. Attempting to solve it is like trying to knit with water. Even understanding it is a mind bender.

Antisemitism within Europe is a little more understandable as far as reasons and responses to it go over the centuries. Solving it on the other hand... It's written deep into many cultures within Europe(and it travelled to the US with some). It has thankfully unraveled a good bit since world war two, but it seems it doesn't take much for it to get ugly again as we're seeing at the moment. I suspect and hope it's a temporary blip, fuelled by the wider general swing to more extreme positions across the national and political landscapes and it will swing back into the background again. I did day I hope...

Baggly

Assetbacked wrote: »

This thread;

"Show source for that statement"

/ Source provided

/ Poster ignores and doesn't follow up

Do you know what, you are right. Thank you to Danzy for sending on that link.

I already thanked Wibbs, so wrong on that one, though.

1641

cameramonkey wrote: »

Do you really think Hamas pose a threat to the existence of Israel?

They have no serious military capacity, have you seen the balloons with firebombs attached or the tin can rockets they fire?


How do you think Hamas could possibly threaten Israel?

They don't pose such a threat because of the imbalance in armoury. They have often spoken of their intention. It is murder on a grand scale and the total destruction of Israel.

Franz Von Peppercorn

1641 wrote: »

They don't pose such a threat because of the imbalance in armoury.

Right ho.

cameramonkey

1641 wrote: »

They don't pose such a threat because of the imbalance in armoury. They have often spoken of their intention. It is murder on a grand scale and the total destruction of Israel.

Hamas have said lots of things but we must deal with reality. If you talk up Hamas as a threat to the existence of Israel then you are not dealing with reality, in fact you are dealing in lies.

1641

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The threat to Israel is probably the lesser of the threats to the people in the area. Sure hamas blusters a bit. There are lots of threats to the Palestinians from Israeli politicians and that’s probably more likely to be an actual existential threat.

Are you on for understatement of the century? They don't bluster a bit. Look at the Wikipedia Page linked below, eg, Section 8 The Charter. Or the treatment of their own people - 9.6, 10.3, 10.4.


If Israel were posing that kind of threat, given their firepower, they could have done it by now.

Edit: Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Danzy

I've a lot of time for the Palestinians, they have a raw deal and deserve a 2 State solution, more but reality will not allow that.

Worth pointing out that with regards to Jews Gays, women, Hamas are up there with the SS.

Numerical weakness and lack of tech. not withstanding.

Israel did a lot to help Hamas replace the PLO and strategically it was a smart and beneficial move for them.

It would be a very optimistic person who could see right of return being granted and not ending in a wipe out of Jews.

1641

Danzy wrote: »

I've a lot of time for the Palestinians, they have a raw deal and deserve a 2 State solution.

Worth pointing out that with regards to Jews Gays, women, Hamas are up there with the SS.

Numerical weakness and lack of tech. not withstanding.

Israel did a lot to help Hamas replace the PLO and strategically it was a smart and beneficial move for them.

It would be a very optimistic person who could see right of return being granted and not ending in a wipe out of Jews.

I am totally opposed to Israeli settlements and would love to see a viable (for both sides) 2 state solution. But the lack of a settlement is not just down to Israel. And Hamas are seriously nasty.

1641

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I get it when some people are criticising Israel or whatever but it always surprises me that people in Ireland have any opinion on Jewish people, I mean we are not really in contact with them and they seem harmless enough.

I suspect that historically it is lucky that they never settled here in large numbers - both for their sakes and our own reputation. It is unlikely that the ugly European anti-semitism would have passed us by. Our Ambassador to Berlin at the time of Kristalnacht (1938) described Jews as "undesirables" who were involved in pornography, abortion and the "international white slave traffic". He thought our immigration policy was "inordinately liberal towards the wrong sort of people" (Jews).


We did have a nasty pogram in Limerick when a group of Lithuanian jews settled there. It seems to have united almost everyone - priests , politicicians, businesses and ordinary Joes. Arthur Griffith (Sinn Fein founder) stuck his oar in too. Michael Davitt of the Land League tried to offer reason but was ignored. Here is a link to an account :


https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-limerick-pogrom-1904/

Danzy

1641 wrote: »

I am totally opposed to Israeli settlements and would love to see a viable (for both sides) 2 state solution. But the lack of a settlement is not just down to Israel. And Hamas are seriously nasty.

No, in reality neither side want a settlement.
I think that Israel viewed the 90s peace process as a time buying exercise.

The Palestinian side couldn't sell the reality of a 2 State deal.