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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe
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Count Down wrote: »A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
There must be a good reason.
There's an explanation, and it's been given already. but it's not a good reason.0 -
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To be fair 1641 the Limerick pogrom while a nasty and sad piece of shabby business between two local communities(both pretty poor too), it was nothing compared to European pogroms. Nobody died, a few Jewish families left, while others remained. Of those that left a fair few were welcomed by the people of Cork(as they were making their way to the US) and settled there. Though we've had Israeli shills on boards before pointing to as an example of "our deep seated antisemitism". :rolleyes: Consider in the same year, or near enough if memory serves(though they had them the regular) a pogrom in Kiev had nearly two hundred Jewish people murdered, many more injured and raped and hundreds of homes burnt to the ground. In wider Russia over all for that period thousands of Jews were murdered over a couple of years. They were a national and annual sport in that part of the world for a good while.We did have a nasty pogram in Limerick when a group of Lithuanian jews settled there. It seems to have united almost everyone - priests , politicicians, businesses and ordinary Joes.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Matt Barrett wrote: »I believe Israel, in it's creation and constant land grabbing and murdering brings it upon itself. I think they do exist to attack/destroy Israel. But that does not make them 'blatantly anti-semite' as was alleged. Blatantly anti-Israel.
Like I (and others) have said before - all critics of Israeli actions and policies are not anti-semite - criticism is legitimate. But all anti-semites are critics of Israel. Which category do you think you belong to?0 -
Are you seriously suggesting that if the Israelis dropped their arms at the Gaza border and gave Hamas access across the frontier that carnage wouldn't follow? Where are you detecting signs of this pacific intention ?
If I was seriously suggesting that here is how I would put it.
"I believe that I the Israelis dropped their arms at the Gaza border and gave Hamas access across the frontier that carnage wouldn't follow". But I said nothing like that. I said the greatest existential threat was to the the Palestinians. The parties to the right of Likud either want to extend Israel proper to the West Bank, thus denying the Arabs citizenship rights in the West Bank ( and therefore Israel proper since that is the only way to do it), or to expel all Palestinians. The latter is popular with a plurality, and almost a majority, of Jewish Israelis.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/It would be akin to the ISIS treatment of the Yazidis (but probably without the sexual enslavement).
Equating Hamas with ISIS seems to me to verge on Islamophobia. Of course they don't do themselves much favours in their rhetoric, but if we are to judge all Palestinians by Hamas we might as well judge all muslims by ISIS.0 -
To be fair 1641 the Limerick pogrom while a nasty and sad piece of shabby business between two local communities(both pretty poor too), it was nothing compared to European pogroms. Nobody died, a few Jewish families left, while others remained. Of those that left a fair few were welcomed by the people of Cork(as they were making their way to the US) and settled there. Though we've had Israeli shills on boards before pointing to as an example of "our deep seated antisemitism". :rolleyes: Consider in the same year, or near enough if memory serves(though they had them the regular) a pogrom in Kiev had nearly two hundred Jewish people murdered, many more injured and raped and hundreds of homes burnt to the ground. In wider Russia over all for that period thousands of Jews were murdered over a couple of years. They were a national and annual sport in that part of the world for a good while.
Take your point - but we did have a tiny Jewish population compared to Eastern Europe. I am not sure things wouldn't have been much worse otherwise. And the thing about Limerick is that it seems to have had quite widespread sectional support (not just the poor and deprived), with the same old prejudices trotted out.0 -
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Like I (and others) have said before - all critics of Israeli actions and policies are not anti-semite - criticism is legitimate. But all anti-semites are critics of Israel. Which category do you think you belong to?
I would like to see Israel treated like a pariah by the international community until it seeks peace and ceases all criminality. But I like Fiddler on the Roof and live among some very nice Jewish people and Muslims too. All decent folk.
Your question suggests you're not as clear minded on the anti-Israel not being anti-semetic as you like to sell it.
You see me post anything negative about the jewish faith or it's followers then come at me.0 -
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »If I was seriously suggesting that here is how I would put it.
Equating Hamas with ISIS seems to me to verge on Islamophobia. Of course they don't do themselves much favours in their rhetoric, but if we are to judge all Palestinians by Hamas we might as well judge all muslims by ISIS.
There is a lot of similarity in statements between the two groups in terme if bloodthirstyness - and there are plenty of Hamas statements:
On August 10, 2012, Ahmad Bahr, Deputy Speaker of the Hamas Parliament, stated in a sermon that aired on Al-Aqsa TV:
"If the enemy sets foot on a single square inch of Islamic land, Jihad becomes an individual duty, incumbent on every Muslim, male or female. A woman may set out [on Jihad] without her husband's permission, and a servant without his master's permission. Why? In order to annihilate those Jews. ... O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one".
I am quite prepared to criticise Israeli government, policies and actions. But the Israeli critics seem to regard it all as one-sided - and blind themselves to the threat the Israeli citizen faces (without Israeli strong defences in place).0 -
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I am quite prepared to criticise Israeli government, policies and actions. But the Israeli critics seem to regard it all as one-sided - and blind themselves to the threat the Israeli citizen faces (without Israeli strong defences in place).
Their state is aggressively colonising areas outside their internationally recognised borders. The result of that is of course a violent threat.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »I would like to see Israel treated like a pariah by the international community until it seeks peace and ceases all criminality. But I like Fiddler on the Roof and live among some very nice Jewish people and Muslims too. All decent folk.
Your question suggests you're not as clear minded on the anti-Israel not being anti-semetic as you like to sell it.
You see me post anything negative about the jewish faith or it's followers then come at me.
It ain't about the Jewish faith - many Jews are secular anyway. But you seem relentless in criticising Israel while supporting a group who aims to violently destroy Israel and its Jewish inhabitants (eg "I believe Israel, in it's creation and constant land grabbing and murdering brings it upon itself. I think they do exist to attack/destroy Israel. But that does not make them 'blatantly anti-semite' as was alleged. Blatantly anti-Israel." )
From the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti semitism :- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
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It ain't about the Jewish faith - many Jews are secular anyway. But you seem relentless in criticising Israel while supporting a group who aims to violently destroy Israel and its Jewish inhabitants (eg "I believe Israel, in it's creation and constant land grabbing and murdering brings it upon itself. I think they do exist to attack/destroy Israel. But that does not make them 'blatantly anti-semite' as was alleged. Blatantly anti-Israel." )
From the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti semitism :- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Hamas are a minority political grouping in charge of Gaza. The majority of the Palestinian population live under Israeli/Fatah control. In that light, it seems rather mistaken to bring up Hamas as some form of justification for Israeli actions - particularily in regard to settlement/colony building and its attendant "security".0 -
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It ain't about the Jewish faith - many Jews are secular anyway. But you seem relentless in criticising Israel while supporting a group who aims to violently destroy Israel and its Jewish inhabitants (eg "I believe Israel, in it's creation and constant land grabbing and murdering brings it upon itself. I think they do exist to attack/destroy Israel. But that does not make them 'blatantly anti-semite' as was alleged. Blatantly anti-Israel." )
From the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti semitism :- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Jewish self determination means a majority Jewish state based on controlled immigration and keeping a Jewish majority I assume.0 -
It ain't about the Jewish faith - many Jews are secular anyway. But you seem relentless in criticising Israel while supporting a group who aims to violently destroy Israel and its Jewish inhabitants (eg "I believe Israel, in it's creation and constant land grabbing and murdering brings it upon itself. I think they do exist to attack/destroy Israel. But that does not make them 'blatantly anti-semite' as was alleged. Blatantly anti-Israel." )
From the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti semitism :- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
I support what now? Where did I say I support Hamas? The suggestion was Hamas were 'blatantly anti-semite'. I'm suggesting they are blatantly anti-Israel most likely. They do not have issue with Israel because the majority are Jewish I would imagine, more based on Israel actions in the area. Israel created a need for Hamas by some. That's how these things generally go.
None of which applies to me.
I thought Israel and the Jewish people weren't the same thing, now they are? Sounds like something BiBi might have penned.
Quote my double standards? I inferred they were the same as the Israeli regime, that's pretty much the opposite. Also what nation have I held to different standards?
You allege I support Hamas from your own fantasy.
I think any rise in anti-semitism/muslim/immigration is fed and used by self interested parties to distract from policies and turn people against each other. It's a tool. The systems we work within don't work for us. Case in point, Ireland with a growing economy but record breaking societal crises. Looking for minorities to blame is the oldest trick in the book.0 -
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Hamas are a minority political grouping in charge of Gaza. The majority of the Palestinian population live under Israeli/Fatah control. In that light, it seems rather mistaken to bring up Hamas as some form of justification for Israeli actions - particularily in regard to settlement/colony building and its attendant "security".
And where did I defend settlement. I explicitly said oppose it as I do other other Israeli policies and actions. But I absolutely support Israels right to exist and for Israelis to live in security. Hamas rule ruthlessy in Gaza and are ruthless and relentless in their aims.0 -
And where did I defend settlement. I explicitly said oppose it as I do other other Israeli policies and actions. But I absolutely support Israels right to exist and for Israelis to live in security. Hamas rule ruthlessy in Gaza and are ruthless and relentless in their aims.
...but to concentrate on Hamas as the "go to " bogeyman lends them a notoriety they don't deserve. Israel acted much as does now before Hamas was founded. The vast majority of Israelis do live in security - the same cannot be said for the Palestinian population.0 -
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super_furry wrote: »People are always looking for someone or something convinent to blame for their ****ty lives. It's horrible but with the rise of far right populism, Jewish people always seem to be in the firing line.
Oh so it has been the Far Right in France that has been forcing thousands (50,000) of Jews to leave for Israel since around 2000 ?
Someone better tell the family of 85-year-old Holocaust survivor, Mireille Knoll, killed in her Parisian appartment or perhaps the families of Yohan Cohen, 22; Yoav Hattab, 21; Phillipe Braham, 45, and Francois-Michel Saada sluaghtered in a Parisian Hyper Cacher kosher supermarket ?
From NY Times.Nearly 40 percent of violent acts classified as racially or religiously motivated were committed against Jews in 2017, though Jews make up less than 1 percent of France’s population.How is it that when the OP specifically mentions Romania you jump to islam.
Antisemitism in europe has been a problem for hundreds of years. It caused the industrialised killing of millions. There's a photo of a graveyard with swastikas in it. Yet you and others are willing to ignore all this so you can grind your own personal axes against islam. And laugh whilst doing it.
Ehhh maybe you should actually do some research before launching on your high horse.
That picture is actually from a graveyard outside Strasborg France in 2018, not Romania and the biggest reason for attacks on Jews in France has been found to be islamists.Chips Lovell wrote: »I love the way when antisemitism is mentioned, there's always a goodly constituency of people who rock up and try to shoehorn it into their own pet agenda.
"It's the muslims"
"It's the left"
"It's the right".
FFS. Are you only interested in it if it's your own personal bogeymen who're responsible?
It is all of the above.
Anyone that dresses this up as just far right is fooking deluded, and as another poster said disenginous.
Yes the Far right is on the rise in Central/Eastern Europe, and anyone of a Neo Nazi bent is of course anti-semitic, but Jews are facing very real threats from other two groups in other parts of Europe.
Yellow Vests have attacked Jews in France.
The Labour party in the UK has been found to be tolerating anti-semities.I am not allowed discuss …
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...but to concentrate on Hamas as the "go to " bogeyman lends them a notoriety they don't deserve. Israel acted much as does now before Hamas was founded..
Why do they not deserve it ? they are dangerous, ruthless and relentless. What about the treatment of their own people who dare show any dissent?
Israel from its inception after the 1948 United Nations resolution has faced threats from one force or another threatening to destroy it and throw its people "into the sea". It has always had to be ready and able to defend itself. It was established after the Jewish holocaust in Europe. How do you think they should have responded - "well, lets see - they probably won't do what they say they are going to do".
But I have many criticisms of Israel, including settlements. It is a complex situation with no apparent settlement in sight. How come the Israeli critics on here seem to focus exclusively on Israel alone? What about any criticism of the Palestinian side ? There were the ongoing stated aims (and related actions) to throw the Israelis unto the sea long before thier were any west bank settlements. Is this purely a good guys v bad guys show?0 -
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »Jewish self determination means a majority Jewish state based on controlled immigration and keeping a Jewish majority I assume.
If there is ever going to be a two state solution I think it does. If Israel is not Jewish it will not be a safe haven for Jews. But Arab citizens live there safely and have civil rights - and representation in Parliament. Is this perfect ? No. But tell me, how do you think a Jew would fare living in Gaza? Do any Arab states in the Middle East welcome Jewish settlers? Or what about Iran?0 -
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And where did I defend settlement. I explicitly said oppose it as I do other other Israeli policies and actions. But I absolutely support Israels right to exist and for Israelis to live in security. Hamas rule ruthlessy in Gaza and are ruthless and relentless in their aims.
But Israel contradicts itself. Secure where exactly? The ever expanding border is part of the problem. Claiming a need to secure stolen land from the people you are stealing it from is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Hamas are terrorists. What is Israel when is carries out same on a much larger scale on stolen land?0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »I support what now? Where did I say I support Hamas? The suggestion was Hamas were 'blatantly anti-semite'. I'm suggesting they are blatantly anti-Israel most likely.
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Maybe I misunderstood some of their Charter:
"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They (JEWS) were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Or the words of one of their represenatives, Marwan Abu Ras (for example, there are plenty more):
"The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them. ... Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times. ... They slayed the prophets, and so on. ... Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it".
Nah, they don't sound anti-semite.0 -
Why do they not deserve it ? they are dangerous, ruthless and relentless. What about the treatment of their own people who dare show any dissent?
They are militarily no real threat whatsoever. Yes they treat their own badly.Israel from its inception after the 1948 United Nations resolution has faced threats from one force or another threatening to destroy it and throw its people "into the sea". It has always had to be ready and able to defend itself. It was established after the Jewish holocaust in Europe. How do you think they should have responded - "well, lets see - they probably won't do what they say they are going to do".
Since 1967 however, Israel has been the aggressor by building colonies outside its borders.But I have many criticisms of Israel, including settlements. It is a complex situation with no apparent settlement in sight. How come the Israeli critics on here seem to focus exclusively on Israel alone? What about any criticism of the Palestinian side ? There were the ongoing stated aims (and related actions) to throw the Israelis unto the sea long before thier were any west bank settlements. Is this purely a good guys v bad guys show?
Regardless of whatever Palestinian groupings exist, colonial expansion is an aggressive and active policy which removes any moral "high ground" Israelis might imagine their state had.0 -
What relevance to antisemitism in Europe has Israel?0
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The issue here, is Europe and the rise of antisemitism there. Personally don't think it's a rise, it's just a continuation of antisemitic tendencies in European character, driven by politics and religion. Nothing to do with settlements - you can complain about settlements and Israeli government policy all you want, that has nothing to do with painting swastikas on headstones in Romania.
I fully agree. The problem is that so many people conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, and these are then lumped together to justify the statement "anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe".
For example, can anyone cite specific instances of anti-Semitism which members of UK's Labour party are accused of - which are not related to condemnation of Israel?0 -
The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.
There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.
Nobody is suggesting that they are - except, ironically, those who accuse society of anti-Semitism themselves! Most people who despise Israel do not conflate it with Jews in general, but surely when they get accused of anti-Semitism by others, it's those others who are guilty of conflating Israel with Jews in general?0 -
1They are militarily no real threat whatsoever. Yes they treat their own badly.
2. Since 1967 however, Israel has been the aggressor by building colonies outside its borders.
3 Regardless of whatever Palestinian groupings exist, colonial expansion is an aggressive and active policy which removes any moral "high ground" Israelis might imagine their state had.
Again , and in the context of a thread on European anti-semitism for which some posters have referred to Israel as an "explanation" (or justification?), I ask why the relentless one-sided focus on the Israeli wrongs or perceived wrongs, without any acknowledgement of the the threat they have continually faced, the wrongs on the other side, or the complexity of the situation generally ? Most people have no difficulty acknowleding Israeli wrongs but there are a significant contingent who will never accept or acknowledge wrongs against Israel or wrongs that make resolution more difficult.
As regards your points above.
1 We have been over this before. Hamas are a serious threat. So far, at least, that threat has been contained by superior Israeli strength.
2. The settlements didn't start until the seventies and I thing they are wrong. Many criticise Israel for it. As regards aggression there were numerous ongoing attacks by various Palestinian factions and groups right through the 70s and 80s such as the Munich massacre. You are not forgetting the Yom Kippur War launched by an alliance of Arab states in 1973? Or the documented atrocieties committed by both the Syrian and Egyptian armies during that campaign? (see section 3 in this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War ). I am not saying this because I am painting the Israelis as good and the Arabs/Palestinians as bad, but again because I am baffled by the one-sided anti-Israeli narratve that is constantly being put out - mainly by some leftists - a narrative that, unwittingly or not, feeds anti-semitism.
3. I think it is clear that both sides see themselves as being on the moral high ground. But looking at it form the outside it seems to me that both sides are on morally very uneven ground. Yet from certain sections of the left we have a constant demonisation of Israel while a blind eye is turned to the moral and political failings of the other side. Why is this?0 -
https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/277657/what-the-eu-survey-reveals-about-european-anti-semitism
A survey from the EU Agency on Fundamental rights.
That such a post as mine is even considered contentious at this stage is pretty amazing.
None so blind as ..., denial is not just...
That you had to ask is mind ****ing blowing.
I agree, and I'll take the card if it comes my way. The attempts to completely derail this thread by disallowing the discussion of any context whatsoever are a depressing repression to the old-style of Boards discussions - this is AH, not the Politics forum. Discussions here aren't supposed to be railroaded in this manner, we're supposed to have more freedom to meander and draw in relevant segues.
As usual, the restrictions and warnings are being targeted at those on the opposite side of the debate to myself, but I have no interest in participating in a debate in which the opposition cannot voice their opinions because of a chilling effect.0 -
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Again , and in the context of a thread on European anti-semitism for which some posters have referred to Israel as an "explanation" (or justification?), I ask why the relentless one-sided focus on the Israeli wrongs or perceived wrongs, without any acknowledgement of the the threat they have continually faced, the wrongs on the other side, or the complexity of the situation generally ? Most people have no difficulty acknowleding Israeli wrongs but there are a significant contingent who will never accept or acknowledge wrongs against Israel or wrongs that make resolution more difficult.
The fact that certain palestinian factions are unacceptable in the light of European liberal values in no way jusitifies Israeli expansionism. As long as Israel is working towards a colonial and expansionist end, it cannot claim any "moral" high ground.0
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