Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris

fryup

i say all the poor & homeless in France are feeling rightly p!ssed off...where were all these wealthy businessmen with their donations when these the less fortunate needed it??

ToBeFrank123

Most of the homeless in Paris are either illegal refugees from Africa or else down and out alcoholics. They mostly only have themselves to blame. You could give a thousand euro to a homeless alcoholic and it would only make his situation worse. Sometimes money isn't the solution to the homeless crisis.

If I had 1000 euro to give, and gave it to a homeless alcoholic it would be gone in a week. If I spent it on the Notre Dame it would last a thousand years.

LordBasil

In a way it could be a blessing in disguise that the fire happened when and how it did;

Most of the statues that were on the roof were taken away last week for renovations and therefore undamaged.

The Rooster Statue that was on the Spire has been found in the rubble, damaged but repairable.

Most of the artwork and relics were saved

The largest stain-glassed windows look intact.

Regarding the billionaire/company donations, I for one am glad they've done this as otherwise it might have taken years (if ever) to raise that kind of money through crowd funding.

The renovated cathedral will be much more fire safe and should last another 850 years. It could have been so much worse.

Mitch Connor

LordBasil wrote: »

Regarding the billionaire/company donations, I for one am glad they've done this as otherwise it might have taken years (if ever) to raise that kind of money through crowd funding.

The vatican could, I dunno, pay for it. They have money. and art. and statues. and gold. Surely there is insurance of some description on the building as well?

ToBeFrank123

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The vatican could, I dunno, pay for it. They have money. and art. and statues. and gold. Surely there is insurance of some description on the building as well?

The French state won't allow them to pay for it. The French state owns the church. They probably will help out but technically its not their problem to fix.

LordBasil

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The vatican could, I dunno, pay for it. They have money. and art. and statues. and gold. Surely there is insurance of some description on the building as well?

The Vatican does not own Notre-Dame, it is property of the French State. The Vatican has offered assistance in providing experts to help with the restoration works.

Regarding Insurance, I think due to the fact that the cathedral is part of the national identity of France and contains so many priceless relics/art it would be impossible to have it insured.

Effects

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You could give a thousand euro to a homeless alcoholic and it would only make his situation worse. Sometimes money isn't the solution to the homeless crisis.
If I had 1000 euro to give, and gave it to a homeless alcoholic it would be gone in a week. If I spent it on the Notre Dame it would last a thousand years.

Who ever suggested giving the money as direct cash payments to homeless/needy? That's bonkers.

I see sheep

Effects wrote: »

Who ever suggested giving the money as direct cash payments to homeless/needy? That's bonkers.

UK Government - Universal Credit .. yes it is bonkers

Twenty Grand

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The vatican could, I dunno, pay for it. They have money. and art. and statues. and gold. Surely there is insurance of some description on the building as well?

Third party fire and theft.

gozunda

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Third party fire and theft.

As it is state property this means

The French state’s policy is to bear the cost of reconstruction of historical monuments such as Notre-Dame cathedral in the event of disasters.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2019/04/16/523998.htm[/quote]

The construction company also has limited liability and insurance cover were they found to be at fault

4068ac1elhodqr

I see sheep wrote: »

UK Government - Universal Credit .. yes it is bonkers

Slightly off topic, but the UK's 'Universal Credit' is nothing whatsoever like what is sounds like, and nothing like one of the potential POTUS20 candidates is offering i.e. 'Universal Income' ($1k free every month, for everyone).

There is no harm in anyone offering funds to NDC: Paris is the world's #1 tourist destination, and this would likely be up in the top3 sights (even moreso once repaired), so any investment will pay for itself over time.

Anyone can avail of the shelter it provides (within reason) via general (some slight exceptions) free admission. The Louve is only free entry at very specific times, or conditions, and the Eiffel Tower has various costs of entry.

ToBeFrank123

Effects wrote: »

Who ever suggested giving the money as direct cash payments to homeless/needy? That's bonkers.

This is getting ridiculous.

Start a thread about the homeless and I will be more than happy to discuss it there.

The fact is the French spend billions on helping the homeless every year. Its a separate issue.

The taxes of the super rich also pay for the homeless.

The idea that Notre Dame which draws millions of people every year who in turn contribute millions in tax, should be allowed to lay in ruins so the homeless can be given priority is just a nonsense full stop.

4068ac1elhodqr

The French already had an opportunity to tax the rich (everyone earning over €400,000pa) at 100%
- via Jean-Luc Mélenchon in the last election (who did ok considering).

They instead (rightly or wrongly) went with Macron.

If they went with Mél, perhaps the NDC would have been repaired already, and thus no fire?

The French would also by now (potentially) have:

Working week to four days
More vacation days for workers
Raise minimum wage by 16%
Increase the tax on inherited wealth
Abandon nuclear power; 100% renewable energy by 2050
No new free trade agreements
Leave NATO, the International Monetary Fund and the World Trade Organization
Nationalize French energy company EDF and gas provider Engie

But on the other hand, they would also see an exodus of thousands of millionaires.
e.g. Actor: G.Depardieu, has already moved over to Rus, to save a few dolla'.

marieholmfan

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

Danzy

marieholmfan wrote: »

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

Eejit.

Timberrrrrrrr

marieholmfan wrote: »

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

What an utterly moronic post.

Anteayer

I'm just listening to the fire service press conference. It seems they did use fire fighting robots which had been on standby part of the Grand Paris Express (huge new metro) project that's on going at the moment.

So the were in the roof in a more nuanced way than air dropping with water.

They have gear for fire fighting in tight spaces and underground and so on because of the nature or the city they work in and to avoid putting crews and the public in danger.

Richard Hillman

J Mysterio wrote: »

Name one.

The GPO

Richard Hillman

marieholmfan wrote: »

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

Reminding his followers why these buildings are here. Making people appreciate what was built and why it was built.

When you go into the Notre Dame Cathedral you are told to removed your hat. It's a sharp reminder that it isn't just a tourist attraction. It is a place of worship.

gozunda

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Reminding his followers why these buildings are here. Making people appreciate what was built and why it was built.

When you go into the Notre Dame Cathedral you are told to removed your hat. It's a sharp reminder that it isn't just a tourist attraction. It is a place of worship.

Not a believer in that sense of the word - but I would agree that God(s) are generally known to work in mysterious ways

marieholmfan

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Reminding his followers why these buildings are here. Making people appreciate what was built and why it was built.

When you go into the Notre Dame Cathedral you are told to removed your hat. It's a sharp reminder that it isn't just a tourist attraction. It is a place of worship.

Your God wore a hat to worship his God!

IN A SYNAGOGUE!

Feisar

Hard to believe there wasn't a serious fire watch during renovations in a building that's basically a pile of tinder.

Hot works permits and an hour fire watch after hot works are completed are fairly standard in the construction industry. Well here anyway.

MrMusician18

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A few questions for those in the know:

1. Will the new roof beams be made of wood?
2. Maybe steel clad in wood?
3. Will they install a sprinkler system?

1. Yes, almost certainly. They will either import hardwood for trusses or more likely use glulam.
2. I imagine it's unlikely they will use steel
3. The most advanced fire suppression systems will be installed to prevent a repeat.

After disasters like this, restorers generally will repair what can be repaired with the correct historic methods and replace what has to be replaced with modern sympathetic materials. Buildings like these tell the story of their history, and the fire is now very much part of it. The new roof will tell that history so trying to mimic the old one would betray the story.

marieholmfan

Feisar wrote: »

Hard to believe there wasn't a serious fire watch during renovations in a building that's basically a pile of tinder.

Hot works permits and an hour fire watch after hot works are completed are fairly standard in the construction industry. Well here anyway.

I'd say they have already made more money than the cost of refurbishment.
Is the whole thing a publicity stunt?

Timberrrrrrrr

marieholmfan wrote: »

I'd say they have already made more money than the cost of refurbishment.
Is the whole thing a publicity stunt?

This post is the equivalent of 1000 monkeys at 1000 typewriters

Except I'm guessing its 1000 idiots smashing their faces against 1000 keyboards.

MrMusician18

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This post is the equivalent of 1000 monkeys at 1000 typewriters

Except I'm guessing its 1000 idiots smashing their faces against 1000 keyboards.

One of good things about these threads is that it helps to identify the Philistines, trolls, clowns, fools, conspiracy theorists, one-issue wonders, and downright ignorant amongst us.

marieholmfan

Richard Hillman wrote: »

why it was built.

To legitimise the confiscation of Jewish assets?

marieholmfan

MrMusician18 wrote: »

One of good things about these threads is that it helps to identify the Philistines, trolls, clowns, fools, conspiracy theorists, one-issue wonders, and downright ignorant amongst us.

One of the great things about posts like the above is that they identify the crawling things that shamble from some marsh of ignorance and mindlessly repeat the platitudes of childhood.

iamwhoiam

marieholmfan wrote: »

One of the great things about posts like the above is that they identify the crawling things that shamble from some marsh of ignorance and mindlessly repeat the platitudes of childhood.

Why are you such an angry little bunny today ? I hope tomorrow brings you more peaceful tranquility

Mollyb60

MrMusician18 wrote: »

1. Yes, almost certainly. They will either import hardwood for trusses or more likely use glulam.
2. I imagine it's unlikely they will use steel
3. The most advanced fire suppression systems will be installed to prevent a repeat.

After disasters like this, restorers generally will repair what can be repaired with the correct historic methods and replace what has to be replaced with modern sympathetic materials. Buildings like these tell the story of their history, and the fire is now very much part of it. The new roof will tell that history so trying to mimic the old one would betray the story.

I may be wrong but I remember being told by a fire engineer that the reason the Renee Mackintosh building in Glasgow caught on fire the second time and went up so easily is that Scottish heritage legislation requires any renovation work to historic listed buildings be carried out in the same manner with the same materials and to the same standards as the original building. So it was rebuilt the same way and shockingly caught fire again.

I'm all for repairing as much as is reasonably practicable but the lessons need to be learned so that this doesn't happen again. I'm not sure what sprinklers could do in the event of a fire in the roof again apart from protect the rest of the building. IMO the new roof and spire should be constructed from fire resistant modern materials as much as possible.

Effects

Mollyb60 wrote: »

I may be wrong but I remember being told by a fire engineer that the reason the Renee Mackintosh building in Glasgow caught on fire the second time and went up so easily is that Scottish heritage legislation requires any renovation work to historic listed buildings be carried out in the same manner with the same materials and to the same standards as the original building. So it was rebuilt the same way and shockingly caught fire again.

They hadn't installed the new sprinkler system which would have prevented the fire from spreading.

janfebmar

fryup wrote: »

i say all the poor & homeless in France are feeling rightly p!ssed off...where were all these wealthy businessmen with their donations when these the less fortunate needed it??

Something not quite right when 700,000,000 or whatever could do so much more elsewhere.

hmmm

Happy to see hundreds of millions pledged for a great project, rather than thrown away on the charity and social welfare industry. This hundreds of millions will support thousands of skilled workers (note for emphasis - workers), who will be employed for years building something that the French can look at with pride.

Fastidious

hmmm wrote: »

Happy to see hundreds of millions pledged for a great project, rather than thrown away on the charity and social welfare industry. This hundreds of millions will support thousands of skilled workers (note for emphasis - workers), who will be employed for years building something that the French can look at with pride.

Seems like an awful lot for a building and why should Irish taxpayers be footing the bill. Meanwhile children are starving in Africa..scandalous

Effects

Fastidious wrote: »

why should Irish taxpayers be footing the bill.

How are we footing the bill?

janfebmar

Effects wrote: »

How are we footing the bill?

EU funds.

vargoo

Roger_007 wrote: »

Building insurance normally covers the cost of rebuilding or repair.
What insurance company would cover a building that could potentially cost billions to rebuild if it was damaged or destroyed?

Who insured the twin towers? They paid out 4.5 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein

Spanish Eyes

As a country we give the bones of E750 million per annum to Overseas Aid. Taxpayers do not have a choice in this.

We welcome people from these countries as asylum seekers and pay for them also.

We are bombarded every day by TW charities looking for more.

Has much improved in these countries, given that we are just minnows, other countries donate much more also.

I think we are being conned quite frankly, but the received wisdom is we should give more.

Delighted to see the philanthropists supporting the rebuilding of ND. That will last a lot longer than aid to Third World and will be visible and enjoyed by many.

Wibbs

marieholmfan wrote: »

One of the great things about posts like the above is that they identify the crawling things that shamble from some marsh of ignorance and mindlessly repeat the platitudes of childhood.

Jaysus, I'd say you spent some time thinking that up. Probably sounded better in your head too. These things usually do.

o1s1n

Wibbs wrote: »

Jaysus, I'd say you spent some time thinking that up. Probably sounded better in your head too. These things usually do.

Sounds almost like it's written by a Nigerian prince.

kowloon

o1s1n wrote: »

Sounds almost like it's written by a Nigerian prince.

That fcuker still owes me my half of the money. I was going to use it to pay homeless people to burn down the GPO again.

gozunda

Some photos showing extent of damage

A before and after shot



Quite incredible that the candles near the alter and on the pillars survived the heat of the fire (zoom in to see detail)



Additional:



Click to zoom

Atoms for Peace

Fastidious wrote: »

Seems like an awful lot for a building and why should Irish taxpayers be footing the bill. Meanwhile children are starving in Africa..scandalous

Africa is a bottomless pit of human misery and corruption, at this stage it's a case of throwing good money after bad. At least with rebuilding ND you'll see a return on the spending.

wexandproud

Fastidious wrote: »

Seems like an awful lot for a building and why should Irish taxpayers be footing the bill. Meanwhile children are starving in Africa..scandalous

Back when i was in primary school 40 odd years ago the nuns were collecting for the starving '' black babies '' in Africa , every where you went there were boxes with the logo '''pennies for black babies '' . Now 40 odd years later and billions of euro later there are still people starving in Africa , which is a terrible thing to be happening , but all over the world their are tragedy's and disaster's some of which will not be solved no matter how much money is thrown at them
At least with funds in place ND will be rebuilt , thankfully , and millions of people of all races and creeds can enjoy it for what it is , a beautiful historic building .
13 million people a year cant be wrong

4ensic15

wexandproud wrote: »

Back when i was in primary school 40 odd years ago the nuns were collecting for the starving '' black babies '' in Africa , every where you went there were boxes with the logo '''pennies for black babies '' . Now 40 odd years later and billions of euro later there are still people starving in Africa , which is a terrible thing to be happening , but all over the world their are tragedy's and disaster's some of which will not be solved no matter how much money is thrown at them
At least with funds in place ND will be rebuilt , thankfully , and millions of people of all races and creeds can enjoy it for what it is , a beautiful historic building .
13 million people a year cant be wrong

Are you saying the nuns would have been better to collect for fire extinguishers for the Notre Dame?

Effects

wexandproud wrote: »

13 million people a year cant be wrong

People like Cold Play and voted for the Nazis.

Force Carrier

4ensic15 wrote: »

Are you saying the nuns would have been better to collect for fire extinguishers for the Notre Dame?

Some for that and some for contraception for the black mammies and daddies.

10000maniacs

wexandproud wrote: »

Back when i was in primary school 40 odd years ago the nuns were collecting for the starving '' black babies '' in Africa , every where you went there were boxes with the logo '''pennies for black babies '' . Now 40 odd years later and billions of euro later there are still people starving in Africa , which is a terrible thing to be happening , but all over the world their are tragedy's and disaster's some of which will not be solved no matter how much money is thrown at them
At least with funds in place ND will be rebuilt , thankfully , and millions of people of all races and creeds can enjoy it for what it is , a beautiful historic building .
13 million people a year cant be wrong

I have a box of green shield stamps and Lyons tea minstrels. I was going to donate them to the black babies but The Notre Dame needs them more.
But seriously, I remember the priest used to come round to our school with little Black Babies booklets to fill with Green Shield stamps over the Easter.

rossie1977

Not sure if it's already been posted but this NBC piece from last year highlights the problems Notre Dame was facing long before the fire. The building was literally slowly crumbling

kowloon

Effects wrote: »

People like Cold Play and voted for the Nazis.

Yeah, I'm stealing that.