Dehorning calves - take out bud?

patsy_mccabe

I've been dehorning calves here for over 10 years. I've always done them the same way. Electric dehorner, allow 15 mins to heat up. Rotate and twist around. Thing is, I always thought I was taking out the bud, but now realise I was only taking off the bud top. I would always make a X burn then across the top of the bud that is left. Looking at older cattle here and I notice some have tiny butts of horns. Small, but still visible.

So question is - do ye take out bud or not. Different videos below and some do.....some don't.

This guy doesn't take out the bud. He seems to know his stuff though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhMzcL1kxM

This vet takes out the bud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeluAfJlKZg

Same here - takes out bud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZpyim7raNA

tanko

I always take the bud out. It only takes a few seconds extra time. Far less chance of butts growing if its taken out i think.
Blue spray and stockholm tar to finish the job.

Base price

We always take out the bud, easier done on a gas (bottle) dehorner as opposed to a electric one. I used to take them out with a electric dehorner but it takes a few more rotations.

The dogs wait on the sidelines ready to snatch those tasty morsels

Anto_Meath

I would always take out the bud, problem I find with Limos is there is in only a tiny bud until they are about a month and you would be afraid of them bleeding to much. So this year I bought a tube of the paste (€20 and it is ment to do 30 calves), used it last week on calves up to 3 weeks old. Found it very easy to use and the bud looks burned off like with the gas gun. I am guessing time will tell if it's a success. But if it is then it's streets ahead of the traditional de-horner & no wrestling with calves trying to get them into a cage.

one world order

Chip the bud with a knife, rub the costic in and job done. Most humane way of dehorning a calf and no issues the horn growing after.

farawaygrass

My father was saying he used to toughen up the bud before applying caustic years ago. I don’t but only using it for the first time this year. Nervous enough tbh. I definitely didn’t cover one bud fully and doing think I applied enough on the first lad I done. But If it works like I should it’s the only job

hopeso

Anto_Meath wrote: »

I would always take out the bud, problem I find with Limos is there is in only a tiny bud until they are about a month and you would be afraid of them bleeding to much. So this year I bought a tube of the paste (€20 and it is ment to do 30 calves), used it last week on calves up to 3 weeks old. Found it very easy to use and the bud looks burned off like with the gas gun. I am guessing time will tell if it's a success. But if it is then it's streets ahead of the traditional de-horner & no wrestling with calves trying to get them into a cage.

What paste is this?

hopeso

I always dig out the bud...but this is when it can start to bleed. So, I'd say if you got away for 10 years without digging out the bud, keep at it.....

orm0nd

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I've been dehorning calves here for over 10 years. I've always done them the same way. Electric dehorner, allow 15 mins to heat up. Rotate and twist around. Thing is, I always thought I was taking out the bud, but now realise I was only taking off the bud top. I would always make a X burn then across the top of the bud that is left. Looking at older cattle here and I notice some have tiny butts of horns. Small, but still visible.

So question is - do ye take out bud or not. Different videos below and some do.....some don't.

This guy doesn't take out the bud. He seems to know his stuff though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhMzcL1kxM

This vet takes out the bud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeluAfJlKZg

Same here - takes out bud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZpyim7raNA

never take off the bud, just burn it until it turns a copper colour, no snags or butts and heals a lot faster.

Dunedin

orm0nd wrote: »

never take off the bud, just burn it until it turns a copper colour, no snags or butts and heals a lot faster.

Same as that. Used to always dig out bud but started just ringing them about 4 years ago and wouldn’t change for anything now - no bleeding, never have had anything grow afterwards. And easier on man and beast

kay 9

Don't take them out here. Absolutely no need.
The father used to do the slightly bigger ones with a sharp knife and cauterize the wound after. Was much faster and less stress on calf.

Anto_Meath

hopeso wrote: »

What paste is this?

This is the 1 I used but got in my local argi supplier.

kay 9

Anto_Meath wrote: »

This is the 1 I used but got in my local argi supplier.

Have used that with good results.
Key is to keep calf away from the cow for a couple of hours

Base price

Anto_Meath wrote: »

This is the 1 I used but got in my local argi supplier.

I thought that dehorning paste was banned years ago.

tanko

Base price wrote: »

I thought that dehorning paste was banned years ago.

The caustic sticks were banned but not the paste afaik.

Base price

tanko wrote: »

The caustic sticks were banned but not the paste afaik.

Ok, is there a difference?

Donald Trump

Anto_Meath wrote: »

I would always take out the bud, problem I find with Limos is there is in only a tiny bud until they are about a month and you would be afraid of them bleeding to much. So this year I bought a tube of the paste (€20 and it is ment to do 30 calves), used it last week on calves up to 3 weeks old. Found it very easy to use and the bud looks burned off like with the gas gun. I am guessing time will tell if it's a success. But if it is then it's streets ahead of the traditional de-horner & no wrestling with calves trying to get them into a cage.

Yeah. The limousins can often fairly old before you see if they have anything or not. It's a pain in the arse because they are getting big at that stage.



You can use a dehorning crate but sure when they are small enough to fit into it easily, it's just as handy to have someone (or two) hold them. When they get a bit bigger and stronger sure they won't fit in it

tanko

Base price wrote: »

Ok, is there a difference?

I suppose the caustic sticks are solid and the paste isnt.
I used the caustic sticks here for years when they were available, worked well but the calves would be going around for a good whle after shaking their heads.
Used the paste for one year, didnt find it great, bought a gas dehorner then.

_Brian

We just ring the bud rather than removing it.

Anto_Meath

kay 9 wrote: »

Have used that with good results.
Key is to keep calf away from the cow for a couple of hours

- Ye I had the cows 1 side of the gate and the calves the other for about 3 hours, would have them separated for safety reason working with young calves anyway. But the lad in the Argi Store told me to keep them apart for a few hours as seemly if the calf went to drink the cow with the fresh paste on them it could burn the udder of the cow.

pms7

When using gas bottle dehorner and taking out bud, some horns would grow.
Got small portable gas, instructions say no need take out bud, but I still do.
No more growing since got portable gas, temp much higher than old one, which obviously does the job properly.

orm0nd

tanko wrote: »

The caustic sticks were banned but not the paste afaik.

Slightly off topic but know of a girl that swallowed a butt of a caustic stick. She was 3 or 4 at the time and she eventually died in her teens after terrible suffering.

bogman_bass

That’s the thing I hate the most about the Limos. They could be up to a month old before they’re fit to do. Then you either end up missing them or they are big rough yokes to wrestle with
Find that the Parthenaise are popping out of the oven ready to go.
I normally leave calves in the shed 2 or 3 days when born to make sure they are drinking and it’s great to skull them as they get put out and don’t have to bring them in again.

patsy_mccabe

orm0nd wrote: »

Slightly off topic but know of a girl that swallowed a butt of a caustic stick. She was 3 or 4 at the time and she eventually died in her teens after terrible suffering.

I know of a similar story but with caustic soda. She died in her twenties.

Limestone Cowboy

Always take out the bud here, would have the dehorner glowing red before I'd start and wouldn't be too forceful trying to dig it out either. No problems with anything bleeding and never had a stump to appear after.

PoorFarmer

All limos here too. Some of them can be a real struggle to dehorn as they're 4 to 5 weeks before the bud emerges.
Tried using a polled bull for a few cows couple of years back and no bud until 2 months old. Never again used him.

Have an electric dehorner here. Awful balls of a yoke because the ring on the end is too small. Tried one of the portable gas ones this year belonging to the FIL and was a super job. Much easier to use and with the bigger ring I'd be alot happier to use it on younger calves as there is probably a bit more margin for error

Stopped digging out the bud a few years back too. Get an odd one that will grow a little flat horn maybe an inch or 2 long but I can live with that.

Lady Haywire

Never dig out the bud here either, think it's a bit rough to do it but that's only my opinion on it. Don't mind others at it, just don't think I could do it!
Don't have an issue with horns growing either, but as said above you need to have a good dehorner (portasol one here) & have it scalding hot ready to go.
Circle & twist & know when you've killed the bud, just takes practice.

I also bought that paste this year too, dunno if it's legal in Ireland now? Heard it mentioned on Twitter that it wasn't. I did two calves about 5 days old with it & covered the horn buds/paste with duct tape in two X marks. So cow couldn't lick it off & calf couldn't kick it off either. Both looked like they were debudded after a few days anyway. Just handy to have it as an option if there's only a small bud or if a calf is born outside & you don't want to have to being it in.

patsy_mccabe

PoorFarmer wrote: »

... Stopped digging out the bud a few years back too. Get an odd one that will grow a little flat horn maybe an inch or 2 long but I can live with that.

That's how mine turn out, short flat horns. I don't mind it on the commercials, but it doesn't look the best on purebred bulls.
I think my problem is my electric one doesn't get hot enough, even with 15 mins pre-heating. I took out the full buds for a neighbour last night as a test and thought it was very severe on the calves. I think, I'll bite the bullet and buy a gas one.

PoorFarmer

patsy_mccabe wrote:

That's how mine turn out, short flat horns. I don't mind it on the commercials, but it doesn't look the best on purebred bulls. I think my problem is my electric one doesn't get hot enough, even with 15 mins pre-heating. I took out the full buds for a neighbour last night as a test and thought it was very severe on the calves. I think, I'll bite the bullet and buy a gas one.

Electric one is bloody dangerous anyway on top of everything else. Good many years ago teenager round here electrocuted himself with one of them because he left it plugged in while using it and melted the flex insulation

With my electric one the heated part at the end tends to loosen every so often also which probably doesn't help with heating it.

Had been hinting at herself that I would have way more interest in a good gas dehorner for Christmas than anything else but it didnt stick.

Am going to see how this years ones turn out with the gas and pull the trigger if they're good

Parishlad

Use a portable gas dehorner here too, think it's called Gas debuddex or something along those lines. Find it a great yoke. heats up very quickly. Never remove the buds here either. The odd one will have a little butt of a horn but I can live with that.

Donald Trump

PoorFarmer wrote: »

Electric one is bloody dangerous anyway on top of everything else. Good many years ago teenager round here electrocuted himself with one of them because he left it plugged in while using it and melted the flex insulation

With my electric one the heated part at the end tends to loosen every so often also which probably doesn't help with heating it.

Had been hinting at herself that I would have way more interest in a good gas dehorner for Christmas than anything else but it didnt stick.

Am going to see how this years ones turn out with the gas and pull the trigger if they're good

It's more horn she's after, not less :P

Limestone Cowboy

Parishlad wrote: »

Use a portable gas dehorner here too, think it's called Gas debuddex or something along those lines. Find it a great yoke. heats up very quickly. Never remove the buds here either. The odd one will have a little butt of a horn but I can live with that.

I have the gas buddex with a good few years too. Great tool.

PoorFarmer

Donald Trump wrote:

It's more horn she's after, not less

She might only do damage with a gas 1

50HX

Was brought up with an electric decor nervous,

That’s gave up a few years back, worked off the gas drum then until last year

Switched to the gel, have a small battery shavers, shave around the bud

Pea sized amount of gel on the tip of the budget

Locked into creep area for a few hours...job done

Very happy with gel but the trick is to do them as soon as the bud shows...varies from breed to breed

GrasstoMilk

We never take out buds here, about 60 calves per year. Never had any horns grow. Taking out the bud just causes unnecessary pain and it takes alot longer for the hole to heal.
Just ring around the bud, no bleeding and calves dont really notice. You'd fly through a bunch of calves in no time

keepalive213

Have some calves here which were done two weeks ago at around 14 - 21 days old.
They were done by the farmer I bought off, with an electric dehorner and removed bud.
I saw him do it. No bleeding, blue spray, happy days.
Yesterday I noticed a kind of crust around some of the holes, it looks like something is weeping out and solidifying. I don't think it's infection but am curious as to what it is.

patsy_mccabe

Well, I bought the Express Alios Gas Dehorner. I've done 8 calves with it so far. Find it a big improvement on my old electric one. Took out the buds completely too as an experiment.
I also started giving 3cc of adrenacaine on each side. Calves didn't even flinch with it.

Only downside I'd say is you're burning gas away waiting for the adrenacaine to take effect.

Mooooo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well, I bought the Express Alios Gas Dehorner. I've done 8 calves with it so far. Find it a big improvement on my old electric one. Took out the buds completely too as an experiment.
I also started giving 3cc of adrenacaine on each side. Calves didn't even flinch with it.

Only downside I'd say is you're burning gas away waiting for the adrenacaine to take effect.

We give the adrenacaine here to a batch, mark the first two or three to have got it and then set up the crate and start with them then. Saves a bit of time.

hopeso

Is a prescription required for adrenacaine?

patsy_mccabe

hopeso wrote: »

Is a prescription required for adrenacaine?

Just checked there. Ya, need prescription. I just picked a 100cc bottle up from the vets, €10.

Lime Tree Farm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well, I bought the Express Alios Gas Dehorner. I've done 8 calves with it so far. Find it a big improvement on my old electric one. Took out the buds completely too as an experiment.
I also started giving 3cc of adrenacaine on each side. Calves didn't even flinch with it.

Only downside I'd say is you're burning gas away waiting for the adrenacaine to take effect.

Line them up in rotation for Adrenacaine, based on earliest tag numbers, then fire up the debudding iron. Though this does mean having to restrain then twice.

We use pain relief as well, Emdocam POM (generic Metacam), 100 ml bottle approx. €98 (1 ml/45kg, goes a long way). Guaranteed calves won’t even shake their heads or twitch their ears in pain the following days.

It’s a nerve wracking time, I must ask the Vet for his opinion on the debudding paste, that I have been reading about on this site. Genia paste for €19, plus P&P, to cover 30 animals (between 8 - 14 days old), sounds like an awful lot less hassle.

hopeso

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well, I bought the Express Alios Gas Dehorner. I've done 8 calves with it so far. Find it a big improvement on my old electric one. Took out the buds completely too as an experiment.
I also started giving 3cc of adrenacaine on each side. Calves didn't even flinch with it.

Only downside I'd say is you're burning gas away waiting for the adrenacaine to take effect.

Took delivery of one of these myself this morning.... My first time with a gas dehorner....What setting does the gas flow need to be at? I assume full flow while it's warming up....but would less do after that, just to keep it hot?

patsy_mccabe

hopeso wrote: »

Took delivery of one of these myself this morning.... My first time with a gas dehorner....What setting does the gas flow need to be at? I assume full flow while it's warming up....but would less do after that, just to keep it hot?

Was wondering the same myself. I put it on full flow when heating up and down a lot while not using. Turn it up full again when using. Hard to know.
Use the square section in the box too to hold it. Very handy.
....and keep a spare can of gas too. don't want to run out with one horn done.:D

Dunedin

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

....and keep a spare can of gas too. don't want to run out with one hord done.:D

You might end up with a bull with two horns.

hopeso

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Was wondering the same myself. I put it on full flow when heating up and down a lot while not using. Turn it up full again when using. Hard to know.
Use the square section in the box too to hold it. Very handy.
....and keep a spare can of gas too. don't want to run out with one horn done.:D

I kind of expected a second can of gas to come with it, but there was only one. I have only 6 left for dehorning this year, so I should be alright. The electric one is there to fall back on, if needed. Can suitable gas be bought locally, or will I need to order some online?

patsy_mccabe

hopeso wrote: »

I kind of expected a second can of gas to come with it, but there was only one. I have only 6 left for dehorning this year, so I should be alright. The electric one is there to fall back on, if needed. Can suitable gas be bought locally, or will I need to order some online?

I think most farm stores stock them.
How do you find it compared to the electric one?

hopeso

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I think most farm stores stock them.
How do you find it compared to the electric one?

Haven’t tried it yet....it only arrived in the post this morning. I hope to get a chance towards the end of the week....

Lime Tree Farm

hopeso wrote: »

I kind of expected a second can of gas to come with it, but there was only one. I have only 6 left for dehorning this year, so I should be alright. The electric one is there to fall back on, if needed. Can suitable gas be bought locally, or will I need to order some online?

Snap. Mine was advertised as being supplied with 2 cans, only one arrived. I contacted the seller to send it on, which they did.

I don’t want to rain on your parade but I hope you have better luck with your express gas debudder than I had with mine (Express Ref 134/15 with Piezo ignition) purchased online Feb 2010,€188.
Within 2 years the piezo ignition was defective and had to be ignited using matches. Also it no longer heats up to effectively remove the buds. I even thought that the gas canister had lost pressure. Purchasing new cannisters made no difference. I even weighed the new cannisters to compare them.

I still have it in its case, no longer in use. I purchased the Mullinahone debudding iron with regulator, for calor gas. It’s way better, albeit admittedly more cumbersome.

Aravo

Gas is the only way. Buds are removed here and they always get a spray of Alamycin afterwards to the treated area.

The Rabbi

Check the nozzle for the gas.I have an old iron on calor gas and it often slows down,you will notice the sound changing and the flame reducing in intensity.I would have to put it in the vice and open it to get at the nozzle,pull a hair off me head(grey ones would be better if I had any)and use it to clear the jet.Same thing happened with cannister type .Also the ignition gave problems.But when it was dismantled and cleaned I got it working again. don't think that the ignition systems are up to the beating that they get with strong calves.

Lime Tree Farm

The Rabbi wrote: »

Check the nozzle for the gas.I have an old iron on calor gas and it often slows down,you will notice the sound changing and the flame reducing in intensity.I would have to put it in the vice and open it to get at the nozzle,pull a hair off me head(grey ones would be better if I had any)and use it to clear the jet.Same thing happened with cannister type .Also the ignition gave problems.But when it was dismantled and cleaned I got it working again. don't think that the ignition systems are up to the beating that they get with strong calves.

Yes I remember reading at the time, on other forums, to use fuse wire to free out the jet.