Discovery 2x14 'Such Sweet Sorrow Part 2' [Spoilers Within]

TheValeyard

Blast door only worked because Pikes death was a set event in time. He couldn't die there as he needed to get irradiated in the future.


So....

wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff

AMKC

That certainly looked like it was meant as an episode to end the series which I would have had no problem with as it would have been a decent ending. Not as good as TNG'S or DS9's ending but decent. I thought the battle was a mess and very hard to make out what was going on.
I thought the fight between Leland and Gerrgia was dragged out way to long. Also what was it she was supposed to have done to him to kill him in the chamber?
I thought the whole Spock Micheal thing was very dragged out and thought it was silly that Micheal did not just leave Discovery with Spock via the Shuttle that way Discovery would not have had to drop its shields. Then they could have got to a safe spot and she could have excited the shuttle. Also what was she standing on? It looked like she was standing on the front of the shuttle and I found that really annoying the way it was done.
I thought the Enterprise looked great do just disappointing that we never got to see the engineering section at all. Really hope there is a Pike show and that they do it justice.

I thought the repair robots were cool and the scene with the Enterprise getting repaired and a clean shaven Spock in uniform were the best scenes in this episode.

As for Discovery in the 33rd century I have no problem with that and that's the way it should have been from the beginning. Maybe Discovery could have been a ship built by both Humans and Klingons working together to fight a force stronger than them as the Federation and Klingon Empire are no more. I always thought it looked like that. Such a wasted opportunity that was.

helimachoptor

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Yeah the time travel felt very 2001 style.

I did think the space battle was hard to follow. All those Drones whizzing everywhere.

The D7s were class. And it's nice to see the Klingon Ramming ship was not a bizarre one off thing.


A Pike Enterprise show would be class.

What was the ramming ship? What ep was it in before?

D7s were bloody amazing.
Space battle was awful

helimachoptor

Also did I miss where sarus people and the bahul are now best friends?

liamtech

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The issue of the deeply unlikable and now Godlike Burnham still has to be dealt with

Yes - perhaps they will learn from the backlash and tone it down just a little

alchemist33

helimachoptor wrote: »

Also did I miss where sarus people and the bahul are now best friends?

I got the impression they'd conquered the ba'ul

fritzelly

Thought the Spock/Michael chat was a nod to TOS

AMKC

helimachoptor wrote: »

What was the ramming ship? What ep was it in before?

D7s were bloody amazing.
Space battle was awful

What was the ramming ship? What ep was it in before?


Was there not one in The Battle of The Binery Stars? In Season 1 the second episode remember when some Klingon ship declocks half inside a Federation ship. That's the only place I can think it might have been. I do know that Eaglemoss have a model of it do and that's the first time I say it and thought it looked nothing like a Klingon ship.

I do agree the D7's are awesome looking.

I don't understand why people dislike the space battle. That many ships would be a cacophony and much better looking than 2 capital ships just sitting there blasting away.

My bug bear is the plot stopping chats going on.

TaurenDruid

helimachoptor wrote: »

Also did I miss where sarus people and the bahul are now best friends?

If you did, so did I. Guess there were some events after the Saru short that we're left to guess at.

It's still one of the quickest "primitive hunter-gatherer to skilled starship pilot" transformations since Battlefield Earth.

expectationlost

no 1 was awful

ixoy

So is the Georgiou spin-off going to be set in the 33rd century? Or are they going to chuck her back in time? I mean I'm guessing the Time Bureau could still be around at that point anyway to fling her back to any suitable setting.

I like the clean slate they've taken here. I enjoyed the episode and most of the season but what I really want is more stand-alone episodes. I though that's what we were going to get earlier on in the season but it didn't happen.

Hell no to episodic story telling. All they need to do is remove the focus on Michael

Stark

From reading interview online, it looks like Section 31 series will be set in the 23rd century and will focus on Giorgiou taking the organization underground in order to link up with DS9 canon. Not sure how they plan to get her back to the correct time and if the rest of the Discovery crew will be in tow or not.

I enjoyed the episode for the most part even if the space battle did end up playing out like a Snyder movie.

The Spock/Michael resolution was as satisfying as it could be under the circumstances. Did a reasonably decent of job of explaining why he never mentions here in subsequent series ** Also they did a good job of bringing the character to the point where he's the mature rounded Spock we see on TOS imo. A miss was not taking advantage of the on-screen time with Sarek to elaborate on Spock's daddy issues. I don't count that awful Amanda exposition scene.

"Control" meh. My hunch that it the Borg stuff would fizzle out looked to be correct. Its neutralization was somewhat anti-climatic I thought Giorgiou was going to do something cool like use the magic mushroom drive to send it to some random part of the galaxy/trap it in the mycelial network.

Tilly was good in this episode imo.

Seeing Discovery make its way to the wormhole reminded me of "Yesterday's Enterprise". It did seem very silly that they went through with the plan after Control was neutralised though. Not to mention that Control was along for the ride so if they failed to neutralise it/it reawakened after they turned off the magnet in the magic mushroom drive cage then they were all royally ****ed.

Disappointed they didn't use the opportunity to elaborate on Talos IV and General Order 7. Maybe one for the Pike/Enterprise series if they do go ahead with that?

Hadn't really noticed the lens flares up to now but they were seriously distracting in this episode.

** Edit: now that I think about it, it makes no fecking sense. "No-one in the Federation will ever mention my adopted sister who was Starfleet's first mutineer who started the Klingon war again because I said so!"

Leyland was neutralised but control was able to reconstitute itself previously, no?

McDermotX

A very bumpy end, for a very bumpy season.
Highs and lows all over the place.
Would be a suitable place to end it, but that's not to be.

Sparko

So then no-one ever bothers with the spore network again because everyone agreed never to mention it? Surely a massive tactical advantage like that would be irresistible.

I assumed they'd come up with some reason why the spore network was closed off from normal space of something, but I guess it's still something that Discovery will be using in the future.

Stark

I think the main blocker with the spore drive was the dependency on human genetic manipulation which was strictly forbidden since the eugenics wars. Stamets got away with it as they were on the losing end of the Klingon war and desperate.

Franz Von Peppercorn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Kurtzman with some stuff on the end of S2/future of S3...



Sounds more like they're conceding defeat to the notion that Discovery was EVER going to fit in with Canon, so they're just going to bypass it entirely and go so far into the future it'll bypass everything that's aired before (or due to air with Picard, Section 31 etc)

Smart move. Something they should have done really from the start, but we'll see if it pays off. The issue of the deeply unlikable and now Godlike Burnham still has to be dealt with

Yes, it’s a pity that the Keepers of the Canon tend to over analyse everything. That’s part of the reason Voyager had to go to the delta quadrant, and now discovery to the far future.

Star Trek has never had good battles - it’s always static ships firing at static ships. Here there were more ships but fairly static.

fritzelly

Interesting read

https://trekmovie.com/2019/04/19/alex-kurtzman-confirms-star-trek-discovery-season-3-destination-hears-fans-on-pike-series/

Evade

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Star Trek has never had good battles - it’s always static ships firing at static ships. Here there were more ships but fairly static.

Deep Space Nine begs to differ.


The blast door is the dumbest thing STD has had so far, the torpedo shook Discovery and Pike just stands there looking at it.

fritzelly

Evade wrote: »

Deep Space Nine begs to differ.


The blast door is the dumbest thing STD has had so far, the torpedo shook Discovery and Pike just stands there looking at it.

Wrong ship

helimachoptor

AMKC wrote: »

What was the ramming ship? What ep was it in before?


Was there not one in The Battle of The Binery Stars? In Season 1 the second episode remember when some Klingon ship declocks half inside a Federation ship. That's the only place I can think it might have been. I do know that Eaglemoss have a model of it do and that's the first time I say it and thought it looked nothing like a Klingon ship.

I do agree the D7's are awesome looking.

My memory of that ship is that is was just a huge battle cruiser with the usual kikingon shape. This thing looked like an elongated kazon shop.

Will watch bobs ep again

OldMrBrennan83

fritzelly wrote: »

Wrong ship

No it blew in Enterprise but you can see the shockwave shake Discovery.

Stark

Yeah the photon torpedo thing was a bit naff. It's an antimatter warhead. Once it got within the ship's shields it would have been the equivalent of a warp core breach, the ship wouldn't have stood a chance. In fact Voyager managed to destroy a Borg ship in one episode by beaming a photon torpedo on board.

Evade

fritzelly wrote: »

Wrong ship

It blew up in the Enterprise but the shock wave shook Discovery which was kilometers away making the blast door all the more ridiculous.


That whole battle scene was bad. Enterprise and Discovery got hit by hundreds of phasers and torpedoes and were still standing.

Goodshape

Blast door thing was awful. Just felt bad for the admiral, going out in such a terrible plot device.

And why did Burnham need to fly through the battlefield in her wingsuit? Couldn't she and Spock have just shared a shuttle? Or why was Spock there at all?

alchemist33

That suit was amazing. Not only can it cut through time like a hot knife through butter, but it can take you anywhere in the galaxy (and possibly universe) instantaneously.

GSPfan

As per usual I watched this episode on a Friday night with a drink in my hand and for the most part loved it. The only bits I rolled my eyes at while watching it were.... the blast doors, the goodbye chats during battles, lets never speak of this again bit, and the signal jumps.
The bits I loved were all Pike and Enterprise related. Why can’t we have that show?

I know a 3rd season of Discovery is green lit but I wonder is there any way we can just leave it be and take on the Enterprise Pike years instead. It was a great ending for Discovery if it wasn’t returning. We don’t need to see what happens them in the future, we assume they all live happy ever after.

Imagine how cool a Pike show would be with him carrying the knowledge of his faith into every decision he makes. Imagine how good it’d be to see Spock develop without Burnham there. Imagine just getting to see that new Enterprise set in action.

I imagine that we'll get both.

I can tell you something, no matter what you think about the show; THIS is how you modernise the Enterprise bridge




P.S.
I also cannot believe that they went to the hassle of building an entire set, without a plan to use it. Mount has the potential to be the best, since Stewart

Evade

The Enterprise bridge really does show that you can update the look of TOS but keep it in line with the original. This is pretty much how I wanted a prequel to look. It wasn't cardboard sets that looked exactly like it did in TOS but something that was recognisable as being the same as what came before.

TaurenDruid

Evade wrote: »

The Enterprise bridge really does show that you can update the look of TOS but keep it in line with the original. This is pretty much how I wanted a prequel to look. It wasn't cardboard sets that looked exactly like it did in TOS but something that was recognisable as being the same as what came before.

Yes! And I loved that when Spock walked over to his science station, there was the old familiar... sticky-up viewer thing... he used to use in TOS, with a pointless swirly futuristic-for-the-time display beside it!

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can tell you something, no matter what you think about the show; THIS is how you modernise the Enterprise bridge




P.S.
I also cannot believe that they went to the hassle of building an entire set, without a plan to use it. Mount has the potential to be the best, since Stewart

Marvellous work indeed.

It looked like this end of season was a lead into a new Enterprise series. Discovery was shunted to the future and the camera went back to the Enterprise bridge and circled around it, lingering on the bridge crew.

But we know better.

For sh1ts and giggles, is that Sisko at it again in the background?

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

For sh1ts and giggles, is that Sisko at it again in the background?

That was my first thought too.

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For sh1ts and giggles, is that Sisko at it again in the background?

Ah ha ha ha. I literally just thought that before i read this.

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I imagine that we'll get both.

Can CBS afford it to have so many trek shows on the go? You’d also imagine it would have to be negotiated soon so that the actors don’t sign up to other work.

is_that_so

GSPfan wrote: »

Can CBS afford it to have so many trek shows on the go? You’d also imagine it would have to be negotiated soon so that the actors don’t sign up to other work.

They are feeding it to Netflix, which would surely mitigate some costs. Think they could certainly do a Pike-Trek one.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Discovery is going well for them.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/22/cbs-all-access-has-record-breaking-weekend-fueled-by-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

So that’s why that’s coming back. Remember that these are quick seasons by US network standards of 22+ episodes.

CBS could run discovery, enterprise and the Picard show at different times of the year and keep their subscribers.

Sonics2k

As an ending, I actually quite enjoyed it. I did find the sad speeches mid battle to bit a bit off-putting, especially considering they said "we have no time" or some variant of that.

I haven't decided how I feel about them doing the whole "We'll never talk of this again." It feels to me like they're admitting they went a bit overboard with some of the tech and details, and now just need a way to get rid of it.

Anteayer

It always looked to me like an Enterprise-based spin off was planned, otherwise why would there was too much effort put into the look and feel of the set, the uniforms and casting Spock and Number 1.

Spinning Discovery into the future gives them absolute leeway to go beyond TNG and into a totally new storyline, while also opening up a really solid Enterprise-focused show.

The other possibility would also be a movie spin off, as the sets and so on would actually be cinema ready due to having shot the whole TV show in UHD.

As for the short series, it's probably down to practicalities of shooting for UHD. The production in these kinds of series are more like full cinematography rather than just TV. If you look at any of the TNG-spawned shows, the production costs were much lower as they were only ever shot with the intention of being broadcast on US TV formats, which were even pretty basic by 1990s analogue formats here. NTSC was only NTSC 480i 4:3

In Europe, widescreen was handled by an extension to analogue PAL television, a hybrid analogue-digital format called PALplus, which gave you 576 16:9 without any losses and could even support progressive scan. The colour system was also enhanced and it was broadcast along digital NICAM audio which could have also even contained Dolby surround sound enhancements, but in the US TV formats remained very poor quality until things shifted to digital TV. NTSC tended to be somewhat inaccurate with colour rendition and then to make matters worse US analogue cable TV operators would compress channels even further to get more into limited space, so you'd very low resolution.

So basically TNG production values wouldn't have had to have been all that high and you could get away with far less spend and technical complexity per show.

TOS was shot to film, which is why it's possible to broadcast it in HD now as the resolution of the film capture would be vastly higher than the TV formats it was transmitted on, but the production would have been for 60s TV so again, values would be fairly low.

HD and then UHD have been absolutely huge game changers for production. Effectively each Discovery episode is basically a short movie and that's likely to make those huge runs of 27+ episodes a thing of the past as it's almost impossible to produce that kind of content at that rate of output.

GSPfan

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Discovery is going well for them.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/22/cbs-all-access-has-record-breaking-weekend-fueled-by-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

So that’s why that’s coming back. Remember that these are quick seasons by US network standards of 22+ episodes.

CBS could run discovery, enterprise and the Picard show at different times of the year and keep their subscribers.

I’d actually love if they could have multiple shows that run for 13 episodes each which effectively could keep Star Trek on tv for 39 weeks of the year. That’d be amazing. I think Discovery is messy and has massive flaws but I’d rather have it than not have it.

pixelburp

An explosive finale, and one I suspect that like much of this season 2, has had to perform a lot of juggling and back peddling. More production woes could be seen on the end product, with the middle half feeling like the show having to make-do a little.

Still, on balance I have preferred this season to last, the Red Angel arc being more satisfying and interesting than the Klingon War and alt universe shenanigans of season 1. And while the ultimate destination was a bit underwhelming, I enjoyed the journey, warts n all.

To the specifics of those last moments, it definitely felt like we're getting Discovery in a post TNG world next year. The manner in which canon was adjusted to ignore Discovery lacked nuance (but that that was a problem with the writing anyway, so no need to get any more annoyed there), but if we are to visit the future, it means for both audience and the crew it'll be a new world.

Though calling it now: season 3 will rip off Andromeda and involve Discovery trying to reform a fragmented, broken Federation. It just feels like the kind of thing they'd prefer to do, keeping Discovery-as-savior

TheValeyard

pixelburp wrote: »

Though calling it now: season 3 will rip off Andromeda and involve Discovery trying to reform a fragmented, broken Federation.

CBS nearly had A Star Trek show set in the 31st century where a bloated and lazy Federation (Last days of the Roman Empire) is split in two by the detonations of Omega particle bombs which splits the Federation into two separate Regions and eventually, entities. Could be this.

Stark

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Discovery is going well for them.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/22/cbs-all-access-has-record-breaking-weekend-fueled-by-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

So that’s why that’s coming back. Remember that these are quick seasons by US network standards of 22+ episodes.

CBS could run discovery, enterprise and the Picard show at different times of the year and keep their subscribers.

There's also the section 31 show, a Starfleet academy show and a "lower decks" show. I'd be happy if they scrapped all 3 for an Enterprise show with Pike/Spock/number One. All 3 sound ****e. Especially the section 31 show. I think the writers/producers took too much from the positive reaction to the Sloan character in DS9. Sloan was a fantastic character but Section 31 itself is not interesting imo. Especially the 50 shades of Grey version presented in Discovery.

pixelburp

Wouldn't surprise me if that happened TBH; bar the Picard show, I don't get the impression the others are anywhere near active production. CBS aren't total mugs and you'd imagine are keenly aware of the relative goodwill towards the show (they did afterall retrofit Discovery in the first instance). They have the enterprise set, uniforms and obvious support for Pike, and with some tweaking could even work the "academy" angle into a Pike centric show, given iirc it's with cadets that he meets his disfigurement fate...

FGR

Overall I enjoyed it.

Have to wonder though - is it a cop out by going so far into the future? One major point of ST was the existence of Starfleet and the Federation. TNG wasn't so far ahead of TOS in timeline that you could overlap certain aspects of both shows and eras. Going 900 years into the future really mitigates things. May as well be Lost in Space.

Many hard core fans discuss canon because that's what they love - the lore, the universe in which ST is based. Why are they so afraid to go post TNG/DS9/VOY - I think it was already said here that Discovery could have easily been set in this era given the existance of the Spore Drive.

I'm looking forward to seeing what's ahead - here's hoping the Picard show achieves what it's set out to.

FGR

FGR wrote: »

Overall I enjoyed it.

Have to wonder though - is it a cop out by going so far into the future? One major point of ST was the existence of Starfleet and the Federation. TNG wasn't so far ahead of TOS in timeline that you could overlap certain aspects of both shows and eras. Going 900 years into the future really mitigates things. May as well be Lost in Space.

Many hard core fans discuss canon because that's what they love - the lore, the universe in which ST is based. Why are they so afraid to go post TNG/DS9/VOY - I think it was already said here that Discovery could have easily been set in this era given the existance of the Spore Drive.

I'm looking forward to seeing what's ahead - here's hoping the Picard show achieves what it's set out to.

Federation is too strong, at end of Voyager. They can move to a future where Discovery is old but ahead of the tech of the time

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Federation is too strong, at end of Voyager. They can move to a future where Discovery is old but ahead of the tech of the time

Why do you think Discovery will be ahead of the tech of the time there?

No one knows what the 33rd century will be like not even the the writers yet I would say. The Bajorians could be the prominent race now for all we know. Maybe they have something like the Federation was pr they are an Empire. One thing I do see they could use from being so far into the Future is that maybe some of the races from the Delta Quadrant that were on Voyager could appear.