Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident MOD WARNING IN OP

skallywag

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Several weeks after the murder of Lyra McKee and I wonder if the "hard men" of the New IRA have any support left, that is, if they had any support in the first place?

I do not think that these people have any support worth talking about outside of some small local pockets in a limited number of areas, and whatever support may have been there is now going to be potentially damaged.

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

Hamsterchops

skallywag wrote: »

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

That bold bit is very scary!

So if Lyra McKee (or a policeman) or anybody else had been shot dead or car bombed back in the 70s or 80s there might have been an underlying empathy towards their killers, God that's sad

Lets hope that Lyra's murder will put an end to such actions, and put an end to any underlying empathy that some may have towards her killers.

skallywag

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So if Lyra McKee (or a policeman) or anybody else had been shot dead or car bombed back in the 70s or 80s there might have been an underlying empathy towards their killers, God that's sad

It is difficult to bring the point across properly to those who did not live though these times I think.

When I say that there was an underlying empathy for the IRA amongst a large portion of the population (North & South) I am not talking about folk running around like mad screaming 'up the RA' etc., or even getting involved in discussions on the topic at work, or in the pub, etc. I am talking about those who would be viewed as 'ordinary decent people' let's say, but who would have held a certain sympathy or empathy towards the IRA if they were really forced to show their hand.

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

A killing such as Lyra's would certainly still have disgusted people at that time, but attacks on the security forces, and in particular the British Army, were certainly viewed differently.

An important point to note though is that the situation during the 70's and 80's was not isolated pockets of sporadic violence as we see from the New IRA, but was rather relentless over a long period of time. You turned on the radio in the morning and the first thing you hear is a story of a lad shot dead by paramilitaries on the way home from the pub. You go to work/school, go about your day, and put on the news at nine in the evening, where they have named the lad who was shot, and also report another attack, in which two more were killed. And this all really happened on more or less a daily cadence.

As mentioned previously though I cannot see a return to this, the general underlying feeling has changed dramatically since the early 90's. There is no appetite for going through any of this again. When you have lived through this, and look back in it, then you truly realise how horrific it was.

Hamsterchops

skallywag wrote: »

It is difficult to bring the point across properly to those who did not live though these times I think.

When I say that there was an underlying empathy for the IRA amongst a large portion of the population (North & South) I am not talking about folk running around like mad screaming 'up the RA' etc., or even getting involved in discussions on the topic at work, or in the pub, etc. I am talking about those who would be viewed as 'ordinary decent people' let's say, but who would have held a certain sympathy or empathy towards the IRA if they were really forced to show their hand.

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

A killing such as Lyra's would certainly still have disgusted people at that time, but attacks on the security forces, and in particular the British Army, were certainly viewed differently.

An important point to note though is that the situation during the 70's and 80's was not isolated pockets of sporadic violence as we see from the New IRA, but was rather relentless over a long period of time. You turned on the radio in the morning and the first thing you hear is a story of a lad shot dead by paramilitaries on the way home from the pub. You go to work/school, go about your day, and put on the news at nine in the evening, where they have named the lad who was shot, and also report another attack, in which two more were killed. And this all really happened on more or less a daily cadence.

As mentioned previously though I cannot see a return to this, the general underlying feeling has changed dramatically since the early 90's. There is no appetite for going through any of this again. When you have lived through this, and look back in it, then you truly realise how horrific it was.

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I am Irish, born in the 60s, grew up in Dublin and watched in horror as the troubles unfolded up the road in Northern Ireland. I can also quite certainly say that I never witnessed support or sympathy as an IRA car bomb went off and killed many people.

You quote "if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer"

I never witnessed this in school, college or in work, the reality being that the IRA were robbing banks down here, they were taking hostages, extorting and obviously killing lots of people, so I can't see how any Non Republican would have had any sympathy for the IRA as they watched another car bomb on the Six One news

I just hope that violence can be put away once and for all and not glorified as a way to gaining ones aims, on either side of the religious & political divide.

RIP Lyra McKee.

skallywag

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I certainly do not disagree with you. It is not a topic that a lot of people that I know are comfortable talking about.

It was certainly the case though across large sections of the population in the Republic, and I have witnessed it myself first hand on quite a few occasions, particularly in rural areas of Leinster and Munster. I think that IRA activities in the 70s and 80s would seriously have been diminished if this sympathy had not existed in the Republic.

There were also quite a few folk during this time who simply turned a blind eye or asked no questions about certain things, whereas today I believe that this would not be tolerated.

ILoveYourVibes

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I am Irish, born in the 60s, grew up in Dublin and watched in horror as the troubles unfolded up the road in Northern Ireland. I can also quite certainly say that I never witnessed support or sympathy as an IRA car bomb went off and killed many people.

You quote "if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer"

I never witnessed this in school, college or in work, the reality being that the IRA were robbing banks down here, they were taking hostages, extorting and obviously killing lots of people, so I can't see how any Non Republican would have had any sympathy for the IRA as they watched another car bomb on the Six One news

I just hope that violence can be put away once and for all and not glorified as a way to gaining ones aims, on either side of the religious & political divide.

RIP Lyra McKee.

No one did then and no one does now. They need to stop.

NIMAN

skallywag wrote: »

I do not think that these people have any support worth talking about outside of some small local pockets in a limited number of areas, and whatever support may have been there is now going to be potentially damaged.

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

We all thought the same, but Gary Donnelly, an apologist for the New/Real/Continuity IRA (or whatever their latest revision is) topped the poll in his ward, with 1374 1st preference votes out of 7917 cast.

So thats nearly 1400 people of voting age who back him, and thats not including those outside of his ward too, so I think to say these people have no support is over optimistic. If they didn't drop votes after Lyra's murder, then when would they?

skallywag

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

I was not aware of that, and it is indeed alarming.

janfebmar

skallywag wrote: »

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

What rubbish. I too lived through the 70s , 80s etc in this country and most people I knew hated the pIRA. They kidnapped people, killed civilians, robbed banks, shot Gardai, etc. During the troubles no Sinn Fein td got elected, it was not until the late nineties. You think most Irish people supported Enniskillen and countless other atrocities?

skallywag

skallywag wrote: »

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

I sincerely hope that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s.


However, I would disagree with your belief that we are not on track to return to violence.


The truth is, the vast majority of people on this Island did not want violence, or conflict.


Two minorities, one in each Community, did - and those two minorities engaged in tit for tat killings on an escalating basis until both Communities were ravaged by violence.


To say that it unlikely that the same could happen again, because the majority do not support violence, is to ignore the fact that the majority didn't want violence the first time, either - but it still happened.


Hopefully, lessons have been learned - but when you look at the lack of urgency to restore Stormont, coupled with the determination of both of the main parties not to compromise - then I am concerned that the whole unholy mess could easily start all over again.

The_Fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

I sincerely hope that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s.


However, I would disagree with your belief that we are not on track to return to violence.


The truth is, the vast majority of people on this Island did not want violence, or conflict.


Two minorities, one in each Community, did - and those two minorities engaged in tit for tat killings on an escalating basis until both Communities were ravaged by violence.


To say that it unlikely that the same could happen again, because the majority do not support violence, is to ignore the fact that the majority didn't want violence the first time, either - but it still happened.


Hopefully, lessons have been learned - but when you look at the lack of urgency to restore Stormont, coupled with the determination of both of the main parties not to compromise - then I am concerned that the whole unholy mess could easily start all over again.

This is an over simplistic view of the conflict. You are correct in suggesting that the majority did not support violence, but there was definitely a far larger passive support than there is now within the Irish community. You wouldn't get Colly Duffy elected as an MP now for example.

We will not return to anything like the conflict as there is no appetite. There is no wide scale discrimination against the Irish, there is no longer Unionist misrule (no laughing at the back) and so on. The conditions are thankfully not there.

The Irish side are largely now confined to politics, while the British side have withdrawn and the only time you see them is when they have their wee training sessions up the Sperrin mountains. The British ran paramilitaries have morphed into being criminals only (which I for one am glad of, as the previous incarnations are not worth thinking about).

RobMc59

The_Fitz wrote: »

This is an over simplistic view of the conflict. You are correct in suggesting that the majority did not support violence, but there was definitely a far larger passive support than there is now within the Irish community. You wouldn't get Colly Duffy elected as an MP now for example.

We will not return to anything like the conflict as there is no appetite. There is no wide scale discrimination against the Irish, there is no longer Unionist misrule (no laughing at the back) and so on. The conditions are thankfully not there.

The Irish side are largely now confined to politics, while the British side have withdrawn and the only time you see them is when they have their wee training sessions up the Sperrin mountains. The British ran paramilitaries have morphed into being criminals only (which I for one am glad of, as the previous incarnations are not worth thinking about).

You need to remember what this thread is about-the terrible murder of an innocent young woman by republican terrorists with the same old philosophy just a new generation.

The_Fitz

The_Fitz wrote: »

We will not return to anything like the conflict as there is no appetite. There is no wide scale discrimination against the Irish, there is no longer Unionist misrule (no laughing at the back) and so on. The conditions are thankfully not there.

Really? Didn't Arlene suggest that Nationalists were "crocodiles"?

There is currently nowhere near the same level of discrimination by the British - but there remains the failure to introduce an Irish language act, and, even more alarmingly,

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brexit-exacerbating-human-rights-crisis-in-northern-ireland-922818.html

What do you think the new IRA are using as a recruitment tool?

Do you think that only prosecuting one of the soldiers responsible for the slaughter of innocent civil right marchers on Bloody Sunday assured the young people in Derry that they are equal citizens?

How about the support of those soldiers by Karen Bradley? Or those members of the British public who demonstrated in favour of those soldiers?

You don't see any possible connection with that ruling, and subsequent riots in the Creggan when armoured vehicles conducted searches in the Creggan?

You don't think that the young people of N.I. aren't drawing their own conclusions from the fact that once again, there is a failure to recognise the right of one section of the N. Irish community to decide their own Nationality, and protect that right?

What happens if, God forbid, there is violence against the Unionist community?
Do your really think all the Loyalist death squads have faded into the mist, never to be heard from again?
Because I have a funny feeling they didn't all die off....

Why do you think the British and Irish governments got involved with getting Stormont up and running again?
Certainly both Governments are busy dealing with Brexit - yet they have both taken time to meet, and try and reestablish self Governance for N.I. as a matter of urgency.

I doubt if they went to those lengths as a P.R. stunt, tbh.

Kermit.de.frog

If you are a "dissident" then why do anything?

Everything is in your favor for a UI. Changing demographic and Brexit.

Just let it work it's course?

The_Fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Didn't Arlene suggest that Nationalists were "crocodiles"?

There is currently nowhere near the same level of discrimination by the British - but there remains the failure to introduce an Irish language act, and, even more alarmingly,

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brexit-exacerbating-human-rights-crisis-in-northern-ireland-922818.html

What do you think the new IRA are using as a recruitment tool?

Do you think that only prosecuting one of the soldiers responsible for the slaughter of innocent civil right marchers on Bloody Sunday assured the young people in Derry that they are equal citizens?

How about the support of those soldiers by Karen Bradley? Or those members of the British public who demonstrated in favour of those soldiers?

You don't see any possible connection with that ruling, and subsequent riots in the Creggan when armoured vehicles conducted searches in the Creggan?

You don't think that the young people of N.I. aren't drawing their own conclusions from the fact that once again, there is a failure to recognise the right of one section of the N. Irish community to decide their own Nationality, and protect that right?

What happens if, God forbid, there is violence against the Unionist community?
Do your really think all the Loyalist death squads have faded into the mist, never to be heard from again?
Because I have a funny feeling they didn't all die off....

Why do you think the British and Irish governments got involved with getting Stormont up and running again?
Certainly both Governments are busy dealing with Brexit - yet they have both taken time to meet, and try and reestablish self Governance for N.I. as a matter of urgency.

I doubt if they went to those lengths as a P.R. stunt, tbh.

There was a reason I put "No laughing at the back". Having a "dinosaur disbelieving" bunch of lunatics in a power sharing government isn't going to be a bed of roses.

You have taken me up wrong, I don't dispute what you are saying. What I am saying is that none of these issues, will create the conditions that will enable an armed struggle to take place, and I thoroughly believe that.

DUP think we're second class citizens - shock horror.

Tory minister supports British troops over barbaric murder of Irish citizens - shock horror.

None of this is new, and will not force our young to take up arms en masse. I'd rather the British were denying us an Acht na Gaeilge than sending the RUC in to blow up our pubs.

The_Fitz

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you are a "dissident" then why do anything?

Everything is in your favor for a UI. Changing demographic and Brexit.

Just let it work it's course?

Morons fella.

Feel the need to be seen to be doing something.

The_Fitz

RobMc59 wrote: »

You need to remember what this thread is about-the terrible murder of an innocent young woman by republican terrorists with the same old philosophy just a new generation.

When did I forget?

This disgusting act will hopefully be the last of it's kind.

This philosophy has been in this island for hundreds of years.

The_Fitz

The_Fitz wrote: »

There was a reason I put "No laughing at the back". Having a "dinosaur disbelieving" bunch of lunatics in a power sharing government isn't going to be a bed of roses.

You have taken me up wrong, I don't dispute what you are saying. What I am saying is that none of these issues, will create the conditions that will enable an armed struggle to take place, and I thoroughly believe that.

DUP think we're second class citizens - shock horror.

Tory minister supports British troops over barbaric murder of Irish citizens - shock horror.

None of this is new, and will not force our young to take up arms en masse. I'd rather the British were denying us an Acht na Gaeilge than sending the RUC in to blow up our pubs.

I hope you are right. I really do.

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

What rubbish. I too lived through the 70s , 80s etc in this country and most people I knew hated the pIRA. They kidnapped people, killed civilians, robbed banks, shot Gardai, etc. During the troubles no Sinn Fein td got elected, it was not until the late nineties. You think most Irish people supported Enniskillen and countless other atrocities?

Well your from a pro unionist background so of course you’re going to hate them

Cazale

janfebmar wrote:

. During the troubles no Sinn Fein td got elected, it was not until the late nineties.

Kieran Doherty and Paddy Agnew were elected in 1981. There can be no doubt what they stood for.

timthumbni

Deflection, deflection, deflection. Some trying to make excuses for Irish republicans murdering a young woman in Londondoire.

Some loons even trying to shoehorn brexit into it FFS. These Irish republicans and their ilk were blowing the legs off Gaelic playing catholic psni officers long before brexit was even heard of.

Derry needs to wake up, look in the mirror and start accepting its own responsibilities rather than try to blame the brits for everything. It’s getting tiresome and quite frankly laughable.

enricoh

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

We all thought the same, but Gary Donnelly, an apologist for the New/Real/Continuity IRA (or whatever their latest revision is) topped the poll in his ward, with 1374 1st preference votes out of 7917 cast.

So thats nearly 1400 people of voting age who back him, and thats not including those outside of his ward too, so I think to say these people have no support is over optimistic. If they didn't drop votes after Lyra's murder, then when would they?

Yeah, i couldn't believe he topped the poll, especially in light of the murder a few days before.
Obviously a lot more support for dissadents up there than we are led to believe.
A handful, no mandate etc etc reported in the media down here, election results dont lie

Ash.J.Williams

This week's arrests were down to the ringleaders allowing themselves to be filmed by mtv and then hijacking and burning vehicles in the same clothes...


That's the iq we're dealing with

Edgware

Cazale wrote: »

Kieran Doherty and Paddy Agnew were elected in 1981. There can be no doubt what they stood for.

They werent Sinn Fein candidates. They were hunger strike candidates. There were several elections across the island from 1970 up to the G.F.A. Sinn Fen never got more than a few percentage votes.

Conall Cernach

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

We all thought the same, but Gary Donnelly, an apologist for the New/Real/Continuity IRA (or whatever their latest revision is) topped the poll in his ward, with 1374 1st preference votes out of 7917 cast.

So thats nearly 1400 people of voting age who back him, and thats not including those outside of his ward too, so I think to say these people have no support is over optimistic. If they didn't drop votes after Lyra's murder, then when would they?

Gary Donnelly came out and condemned the killing of Lyra McKee and received abuse for it from Saoradh and supporters of the New IRA. He is definitely not an apologist for them.

Cazale

Edgware wrote:

They werent Sinn Fein candidates. They were hunger strike candidates. There were several elections across the island from 1970 up to the G.F.A. Sinn Fen never got more than a few percentage votes.

They were both known members of the Provisional IRA when they were elected.

Omackeral

The auld no politics rule is working a charm I see :P

Edgware

Cazale wrote: »

They were both known members of the Provisional IRA when they were elected.

t

They werent Sinn Fein candidates. They were elected at the height of the hunger strikes and people were not voting for bombing, kidnapping etc. They were voting in the hope that the political pressure would force the British government to concede the 5 demands.
There had already been 4 deaths in Long Kesh when Doherty was elected. Agnew was not on hunger strike.
To try and use the hunger strike vote as a clear vote for the Provisionals campaign is not a true reflection of the vote

O'Neill

timthumbni wrote: »

Deflection, deflection, deflection. Some trying to make excuses for Irish republicans murdering a young woman in Londondoire.

Some loons even trying to shoehorn brexit into it FFS. These Irish republicans and their ilk were blowing the legs off Gaelic playing catholic psni officers long before brexit was even heard of.

Derry needs to wake up, look in the mirror and start accepting its own responsibilities rather than try to blame the brits for everything. It’s getting tiresome and quite frankly laughable.

Wtf are talking about? Derry is pretty woken up thanks and your doing yourself no favours tarring the general populace of the city with these scum. Sweet Christ

Ken.

Mod- Politics forum over there somewhere. We are done here