Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident MOD WARNING IN OP

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't. The dividing line isn't whether groups condemn the shooting, it's when they say that it was "collateral damage" & that innocents always get caught up in wars.

I thought that the Republicans had a strong network & should easily be able to stop these extremists who are damaging the Republican cause. Or is that, deep down many feel admiration for their protoges ? Can a crowd gather & throw petrol bombs, in the Creggan, without the "approval" of the IRA (or whatever they are called now) ?

The "old" IRA disbanded 21 years ago.
I've no doubt many of them are still around, but whether they have the ability to control this new group, or, indeed, whether it would be wise for them to do so if they do have that ability, is another question.

My gut instinct is that it is the job of the PSNI. Armed groups on the streets is not something any of us ever want to see again.

Getting Stormont functioning again would probably help, too.

There's a reason this is happening again. In the absence of real leaders, it seems some young people are choosing to follow the wrong leader/s.

Time for Arlene and Michelle to sit down, and sort out their differences.
Grandstanding on the fence about Irish Gaeilge v. Scots Gallic isn't worth a life. Pass an act approving both, esp. since they're essentially different dialects of the same language - and then fill the leadership vacuum.

It's what they were elected to do. Maybe this tragedy will prove to be enough of an impetus to stop the tribalism, and realise the we are all interdependent on this island called Ireland. We have to work together, it's time to find common ground, and respect the differences between the 2 cultures.

John2136

There's a big difference between the youths who are rioting today and the youths say in the early 70s, the youths today are just little scumbags to be honest.

tayto lover

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Those jumped up fascist thugs marching down O’Connell Street yesterday should all be arrested and brought before the Special Criminal Court. There should be serious consequences for those people.

Jaysus they’d hate losing a days wages being stuck in the court.

John2136

Discodog wrote: »

I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't. The dividing line isn't whether groups condemn the shooting, it's when they say that it was "collateral damage" & that innocents always get caught up in wars.

I thought that the Republicans had a strong network & should easily be able to stop these extremists who are damaging the Republican cause. Or is that, deep down many feel admiration for their protoges ? Can a crowd gather & throw petrol bombs, in the Creggan, without the "approval" of the IRA (or whatever they are called now) ?

To be honest no matter how strong a network they have there is always going to be collateral damage or someone in the organisation going alone.

Kallor

I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.

expectationlost

Discodog wrote: »

I have seen several videos & there appears to be one brave protester. Rotten eggs would of been good for Easter.

why would people be carrying around rotten eggs? I say most people forget that this march happens each year.

ChikiChiki

malinheader wrote: »

Great advertisement for tourists at Easter.
Is it just me or do the ones marching come across as a kind of oddball looking bunch.

They are likely a group of collective social outcasts trying to find somewhere to belong with fellow oddballs.

recedite

Kallor wrote: »

I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.

I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

janfebmar

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a reason this is happening again.

Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

Kallor

recedite wrote: »

I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

You clearly dont live in the north then if this is what you think. The reality is very different here. Very different

TomasMacR

janfebmar wrote: »

Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

So it's the parents fault, it's as simple as that, absolutely nothing else.

zapitastas

recedite wrote: »

I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence

janfebmar

TomasMacR wrote: »

So it's the parents fault, it's as simple as that, absolutely nothing else.

Not necessarily the parents fault, but the fault of those who influenced the kids in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines. It was not a few nights ago, or 25 or 30 years ago either.

The kids were not born as murderers.

tayto lover

zapitastas wrote: »

The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence

Depends on what information they had.
Maybe they were told that stuff was being moved that night and maybe the stuff included the gun that was used in the murder.

Kallor

Kallor wrote: »

I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.

I was wondering what caused things to kick off.

I was also wondering why in the videos, what I assumed to be police were wearing balaclava type headgear.

Now I'm also wondering what the army were doing there. I thought they were gone from N.I.

recedite wrote: »

I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

Recedite, genuine question, why would the police expect organised resistance by a 70 year old woman? (assuming that this is what happened?)

Why did they enter the creggan in the evening, with soldiers?

I'm not attempting to justify, in any way, shape, or form, what happened.
The responsibility for the shooting lies with the gunman, and who ever provided the gun.

But neither do I think a solution will be found without understanding the nuances of what triggered this tragedy.

The reality is, the GFA ended a civil war that the vast majority of both communities never wanted in the first place.

We need to learn the lessons to make sure that is never allowed to happen again - and a good starting point would be understanding what the hell is going on - and why!

janfebmar wrote: »

Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it?

But logic dictates that people who overwhelmingly voted for peace don't suddenly forget the dangers they lived through, and fail to teach their kids how awful it really was.

So, again, what is simmering under the surface, and what can be done to solve the issues?

Kallor wrote: »

You clearly dont live in the north then if this is what you think. The reality is very different here. Very different

Half the problem is that neither the Irish, nor the British people have a clue what life is like in the North.
I remember trying to explain to my kids what things used to be like during the troubles, and how at certain times, you could still cut the tension with a knife. It went straight in one ear, and out the other, until my daughter got caught in traffic during an altercation in "marching season". She was absolutely shell shocked to see armed police, tear gas, and large groups knocking the daylights out of each other.
But until you experience it, it's very hard to understand.

The tensions in the North are not reported on. You'll hear nothing more than a one liner on the news, if that.

I don't know how to solve that, but I remain convinced that until leaders are found who can communicate nuetrally with ALL the people, then there will never be true peace.
Neutral journalism would also help, but that doesn't exist either.

And, yet, the people overwhelmingly want peace. So, there's real danger right now - but there's also hope.

Now if only we could get the politicians to the same level of progress as the people, a a forum somewhere where moderates from both sides could meet, maybe, just maybe, we could avoid another disaster?

John2136

janfebmar wrote: »

Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

Wrong today, wrong 25 or 30 years ago, wrong a 100 years ago, wrong 300 years ago its always wrong in some people's eyes.

Discodog

zapitastas wrote: »

The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence

There should never be anywhere here or the UK where a Police raid causes riots & death. Otherwise you have no go zones & criminality.

Discodog

John2136 wrote: »

Wrong today, wrong 25 or 30 years ago, wrong a 100 years ago, wrong 300 years ago its always wrong in some people's eyes.

Are you going to add the obligatory "one man's terrorist ..........." ?

zapitastas

Discodog wrote: »

There should never be anywhere here or the UK where a Police raid causes riots & death. Otherwise you have no go zones & criminality.

They should have thought of that 50 years ago when the police and army ignited a situation that caused havoc. Entering into an area where the security services are intensely disliked due to the slaughter of civilians then there is always going to be an issue

zapitastas

zapitastas wrote: »

They should have thought of that 50 years ago when the police and army ignited a situation that caused havoc. Entering into an area where the security services are intensely disliked due to the slaughter of civilians then there is always going to be an issue

it would be good if you and anybody else who felt like it didnt keep excusing these people

it would be very good indeed

zapitastas

[Deleted User] wrote: »

it would be good if you and anybody else who felt like it didnt keep excusing these people

it would be very good indeed

Who is excusing them. I am saying the raid was badly timed. It would bw good if your reading comprehension was up to scratch

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

it would be good if you and anybody else who felt like it didnt keep excusing these people

it would be very good indeed

It would be even better if ALL of us tried to understand, and learn from this - yes?

Discodog

zapitastas wrote: »

They should have thought of that 50 years ago when the police and army ignited a situation that caused havoc. Entering into an area where the security services are intensely disliked due to the slaughter of civilians then there is always going to be an issue

So we must never let a German visit in case they want to invade or a Viking. History is a sad excuse.

Discodog

zapitastas wrote: »

Who is excusing them. I am saying the raid was badly timed. It would bw good if your reading comprehension was up to scratch

Same old, same old. Make up an excuse to deflect from reality. Standard Republican PR for decades.

zapitastas

Discodog wrote: »

Same old, same old. Make up an excuse to deflect from reality. Standard Republican PR for decades.

The reality is that if the raid was carri d out by the PSNI and took place at dawn there would not have been a riot. Is a lesson in there someplace

batgoat

zapitastas wrote: »

The reality is that if the raid was carri d out by the PSNI and took place at dawn there would not have been a riot. Is a lesson in there someplace

There was absolutely no justification for what occurred. Those engaging in the rioting were scum and I hope all involved are punished, particularly given the outcome of their behaviour.

janfebmar

zapitastas wrote: »

The reality is that if the raid was carri d out by the PSNI and took place at dawn there would not have been a riot. Is a lesson in there someplace

It usually is done at dawn. However, as someone else said "Depends on what information they had. Maybe they were told that stuff was being moved that night and maybe the stuff included the gun that was used in the murder."

I would blame the scumbags who indoctrinated / brainwashed the kids. RTE can take some of the blame too, for their one sided coverage on past revolutionary "heroes".

Richard Hillman

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Those jumped up fascist thugs marching down O’Connell Street yesterday should all be arrested and brought before the Special Criminal Court. There should be serious consequences for those people.

Socialists not fascists. This needs to be gotten right. They were socialists. Left wing socialists

Discodog

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Socialists not fascists. This needs to be gotten right. They were socialists. Left wing socialists

Why does it have to be right ? They believe in violence, criminality & vigilantism. They also want to impose their will over the will of the vast majority. The name is irrelevant.

TomasMacR

Discodog wrote: »

Why does it have to be right ? They believe in violence, criminality & vigilantism. They also want to impose their will over the will of the vast majority. The name is irrelevant.

It’s not a name, it’s their ideals. It’s not really up for discussion, it’s what they believe in and their ideals and beliefs are of the far left. It may be surprising to some but they would actually hold similar beliefs to what seems to be a large amount of posters on this thread and boards in general.

I’ve absolutely no time for them by the way.

1641

"Republican" imperialists and criminals have been plundering and terrorising communities for far too long.They are self-serving totalitarians who violently impose their "ideology" on everyone. Anyone who spouts their weasely imperialist self justifications should be called out for it and rejected.

citytillidie

Deleted User wrote: »

I was wondering what caused things to kick off.

I was also wondering why in the videos, what I assumed to be police were wearing balaclava type headgear.

Now I'm also wondering what the army were doing there. I thought they were gone from N.I.



Recedite, genuine question, why would the police expect organised resistance by a 70 year old woman? (assuming that this is what happened?)

Why did they enter the creggan in the evening, with soldiers?

I'm not attempting to justify, in any way, shape, or form, what happened.
The responsibility for the shooting lies with the gunman, and who ever provided the gun.

But neither do I think a solution will be found without understanding the nuances of what triggered this tragedy.

The reality is, the GFA ended a civil war that the vast majority of both communities never wanted in the first place.

We need to learn the lessons to make sure that is never allowed to happen again - and a good starting point would be understanding what the hell is going on - and why!



It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it?

But logic dictates that people who overwhelmingly voted for peace don't suddenly forget the dangers they lived through, and fail to teach their kids how awful it really was.

So, again, what is simmering under the surface, and what can be done to solve the issues?



Half the problem is that neither the Irish, nor the British people have a clue what life is like in the North.
I remember trying to explain to my kids what things used to be like during the troubles, and how at certain times, you could still cut the tension with a knife. It went straight in one ear, and out the other, until my daughter got caught in traffic during an altercation in "marching season". She was absolutely shell shocked to see armed police, tear gas, and large groups knocking the daylights out of each other.
But until you experience it, it's very hard to understand.

The tensions in the North are not reported on. You'll hear nothing more than a one liner on the news, if that.

I don't know how to solve that, but I remain convinced that until leaders are found who can communicate nuetrally with ALL the people, then there will never be true peace.
Neutral journalism would also help, but that doesn't exist either.

And, yet, the people overwhelmingly want peace. So, there's real danger right now - but there's also hope.

Now if only we could get the politicians to the same level of progress as the people, a a forum somewhere where moderates from both sides could meet, maybe, just maybe, we could avoid another disaster?

Police will wear the balaclava head gear to hide their identity, sure most of the news broadcasts will hide the face of police here to stop any attacks on them or family.

expectationlost

TomasMacR wrote: »

It’s not a name, it’s their ideals. It’s not really up for discussion, it’s what they believe in and their ideals and beliefs are of the far left. It may be surprising to some but they would actually hold similar beliefs to what seems to be a large amount of posters on this thread and boards in general.

I’ve absolutely no time for them by the way.

some people go so far left that they meet round the back with the right...facists

NasserShammaz

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Socialists not fascists. This needs to be gotten right. They were socialists. Left wing socialists

Socialists my ARSE, I bet they bored the **** out of people in the pub last night with there right on vertue signaling BS.

There's more chance of me go in to mars than these cos play twats ever bringing about any change in the injustices the feel. Be it prisioners rights or a united Ireland

Richard Hillman

Discodog wrote: »

Why does it have to be right ? They believe in violence, criminality & vigilantism. They also want to impose their will over the will of the vast majority. The name is irrelevant.

It has to be gotten right because dangerous socialist groups get an easy ride. They are portrayed as misguided but their hearts are in the right place. They are and have always been the biggest threat to our democracy. From Saoradh to the Provos, to Socialist Workers Party, Richard Boyd Barrett, they are all a massive danger.

Nobody would have paid attention to Saoradhs March the other day if it were not for somebody murdered during the week. They did not suddenly become more dangerous this week. They have always been dangerous.

zapitastas

1641 wrote: »

"Republican" imperialists and criminals have been plundering and terrorising communities for far too long.They are self-serving totalitarians who violently impose their "ideology" on everyone. Anyone who spouts their weasely imperialist self justifications should be called out for it and rejected.

Do you know what an imperialist is?

Baggly

Mod

Thread closed for review. It seems multiple warnings isn't enough for ye to keep the politics to the politics forum and use this thread to discuss this tragedy.

Baggly

MOD

If you want to discuss politics, go to the politics forum.

This thread is for discussion of this tragedy outside of politics, as well as expressing sympathies for the deceased loved ones, family friends and so on.

Assume those affected by this tragedy are reading your words (i.e. choose them carefully).

Muppetry will not be tolerated.

Any issues, PM me.

Thread reopened.

TomasMacR

Keep politics out of thread titled "Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident ".... :D:D what exactly is permitted???

Can I head on over to the weather thread and not discuss sunshine as thats exclusively held for the skin cancer thread?

Is it just supposed to be endless "RIP and Condolences etc"

Closely followed by "you've questioned a mod....blah blah"

Baggly

TomasMacR wrote: »

Keep politics out of thread titled "Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident ".... :D:D what exactly is permitted???

Can I head on over to the weather thread and not discuss sunshine as thats exclusively held for the skin cancer thread?

Is it just supposed to be endless "RIP and Condolences etc"

Closely followed by "you've questioned a mod....blah blah"

Mod

Don't post in this thread again.

Frank Castle

Edit: wrong thread, delete please

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/21/new-ira-staged-derry-riot-to-impress-tv-presenter-reggie-yates

Apparently, the violence was being played up for a MTV documentary.

I can only suggest reading the article. It's like something from the The Onion.

poisonated

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/21/new-ira-staged-derry-riot-to-impress-tv-presenter-reggie-yates

Apparently, the violence was being played up for a MTV documentary.

I can only suggest reading the article. It's like something from the The Onion.

I wouldn’t be surprised id they did that to be honest.

John2136

citytillidie wrote: »

Police will wear the balaclava head gear to hide their identity, sure most of the news broadcasts will hide the face of police here to stop any attacks on them or family.

And if the IRA they do it they are called cowards.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

And if the IRA they do it they are called cowards.

The IRA would be cowards regardless of whether or not their faces were covered.

Fighting without uniforms and targeting civilians and then expecting to be treated as political prisoners under the Geneva Convention? Give me a break.

John2136

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The IRA would be cowards regardless of whether or not their faces were covered.

Fighting without uniforms and targeting civilians and then expecting to be treated as political prisoners under the Geneva Convention? Give me a break.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint

I was only reading about this attack earlier on they even sealed off all the roads surrounding the area so no civilians would get caught up in the crossfire, this doesn't seem like a very cowardly attack does it? More like something out of an action movie

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint

I was only reading about this attack earlier on they even sealed off all the roads surrounding the area so no civilians would get caught up in the crossfire, this doesn't seem like a very cowardly attack does it? More like something out of an action movie

Nothing in this wikipedia article exonerates the IRA of killing civilians and fighting without uniforms in violation of the Geneva Convention.

The purpose of the Geneva Convention was to protect civilians by ensuring that they can be distinguished from soldiers fighting on behalf of belligerant nations. Fighting without a uniform endangers civilians as soldiers on the opposing side cannot be sure who their enemies are.

While the IRA took steps to prevent civilian casualties in the attack you’re citing, there were a multiplicity of other attacks during the Troubles in which they did not and in some cases targeted unionist civilians.

John2136

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Nothing in this wikipedia article exonerates the IRA of killing civilians and fighting without uniforms in violation of the Geneva Convention.

The purpose of the Geneva Convention was to protect civilians by ensuring that they can be distinguished from soldiers fighting on behalf of belligerant nations. Fighting without a uniform endangers civilians as soldiers on the opposing side cannot be sure who their enemies are.

While the IRA took steps to prevent civilian casualties in the attack you’re citing, there were a multiplicity of other attacks during the Troubles in which they did not and in some cases targeted unionist civilians.

Guerrilla armies don't wear uniforms, although the IRA did wear uniforms in some occasions mainly in the countryside but for urban warfare like in Belfast or Derry wearing a uniform would be just plain stupidity.

It's not like two armies of similar strength fighting one another, one side is severely out matched.

Sean.3516

John2136 wrote: »

Guerrilla armies don't wear uniforms, although the IRA did wear uniforms in some occasions mainly in the countryside but for urban warfare like in Belfast or Derry wearing a uniform would be just plain stupidity.

It's not like two armies of similar strength fighting one another, one side is severely out matched.

It may very well have been plain stupidity from a military point of view but at least it would have helped protect innocent bystanders. As far as I’m concerned it’s up to the IRA to decide what their priorities are.

The argument still stands that one side cannot invoke the Geneva Convention when that side routinely violates it.

simongurnick

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It may very well have been plain stupidity from a military point of view but at least it would have helped protect innocent bystanders. As far as I’m concerned it’s up to the IRA to decide what their priorities are.

The argument still stands that one side cannot invoke the Geneva Convention when that side routinely violates it.

Maybe they could have worn white t shirts with "provo" written across the front?