Saracens vs Munster, Sat 20th April, 3pm

Former Former

AbusesToilets wrote: »

POM and Beirne aren't that good, and Stander is very one dimensional these days.

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

The more I see of Beirne, the more sure I am that he's not test quality.

Stander just looks knackered. Needs a long summer break.

Hobosan

troyzer wrote: »

Instead of a slap on the wrist, they should be encouraged to meet with marginalised members of the gay community to just chat and learn about their experiences.

Homophobia etc. is almost always born out of extreme ignorance.

I'm not even against them being punished. Obviously people will be put off a team if they don't take measures against players that say bigoted things. But the same goes for all companies now. I was just curious what jobs are not off limits for former homophobic rugby players, since I'm so tired the 'not right for the job' mantra.

If not rugby, then what?

Of course anyone asking that question must be advocating some kind of Nazi rugby team!

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

The more I see of Beirne, the more sure I am that he's not test quality.

Stander just looks knackered. Needs a long summer break.

POM is good in a game dominated by line outs. I think he has limitations which come to the fore when the team needs carriers.

Stander is very one dimensional. He had the guts of a month off not so long ago so he can hardly be knackered. He is also over used and teams will just shut him down. I don't buy the argument that's made about how it takes 3 players out of the defence. Slow ball is useless.

Munsters backrow was totally dominated today. Farrell was the standout player but most (not all) of that was great defensive work

Beirne doesn't suit Munsters game plan.


On the Billy V stuff. No problem with him being booed. Some of the "he should be banned " stuff on social media is pathetic and BT are a disgrace for their praise of him.

salmocab

Hobosan wrote: »

I'm not even against them being punished. Obviously people will be put off a team if they don't take measures against players that say bigoted things. But the same goes for all companies now. I was just curious what jobs are not off limits for former homophobic rugby players, since I'm so tired the 'not right for the job' mantra.

If not rugby, then what?

Of course anyone asking that question must be advocating some kind of Nazi rugby team!

If he can’t get a job elsewhere that’s his own problem. He’s free to say what he wants but doesn’t live in a strange consequence free world. The world doesn’t owe anyone a living.

troyzer

Hobosan wrote: »

I'm not even against them being punished. Obviously people will be put off a team if they don't take measures against players that say bigoted things. But the same goes for all companies now. I was just curious what jobs are not off limits for former homophobic rugby players, since I'm so tired the 'not right for the job' mantra.

If not rugby, then what?

Of course anyone asking that question must be advocating some kind of Nazi rugby team!

I don't particularly care. I don't think it's up to Rugby to help employ the poor homophobes of the world who couldn't get an office job.

This ultimately boils down to Saracens valuing his abilities too much to give a **** about the gay community.

I'm not that against a first warning but it does seem half arsed and he clearly doesn't have any regrets.

Faugheen

Hobosan wrote: »

If not rugby, then what?

Of course anyone asking that question must be advocating some kind of Nazi rugby team!

I couldn’t care less. Don’t be against men who love other men for no reason other than a God that may or may not exist said so and you won’t have any problem.

Why are you worried about what the poor homophobes will do if they can’t play rugby?

Henry Ford III

thomond2006 wrote: »

..and he's been banned from the Ricoh Arena.

He's due a few more bans imho.

Hobosan

Faugheen wrote: »

Stop letting them spout sheer hatred and bigotry because they believe that’s what some white-bearded man in the sky says, according to them.

Why should they be allowed to play our game? They have shown they are ignorant, they’re not sorry for it and they have to be involved in a profession which contains gay people.

Why should Billy Vunipola be allowed to belittle Nigel Owens because if his sexuality, which he can’t control, based on absolutely **** all?

By letting them play professional sport and represent millions of people, you go no further to solving the fundamental issue of homophobia, instead you’re hoping someone else should do it.

All I asked is what suitable employment is, since being the best at rugby in their countries is not enough. They wouldn't get employed in any positions anywhere with that carry on, except in the Saudi Arabia perhaps.

clsmooth

Are we looking at a possibility of a double citing for the Beirne tip tackle? Not sure how it wasn’t a red? Or have referees been told to ease up on this aspect on the game?

Faugheen

Hobosan wrote: »

All I asked is what suitable employment is, since being the best at rugby in their countries is not enough. They wouldn't get employed in any positions anywhere with that carry on, except in the Saudi Arabia perhaps.

Thankfully, most employers acknowledge that there’s no reason to hold sexuality against someone, and that anyone who does doesn’t represent their values.

thomond2006

Henry Ford III wrote: »

He's due a few more bans imho.

They're on the way I'm sure.

Hobosan

Faugheen wrote: »

I couldn’t care less. Don’t be against men who love other men for no reason other than a God that may or may not exist said so and you won’t have any problem.

Why are you worried about what the poor homophobes will do if they can’t play rugby?

I couldn't care less what they do, I was curious what you'd do with them.

Shouldn't be a part of society was your answer.

That's a nice euphemism. I hope your dream comes through, I'm with you all the way. The poor homophobes won't know what hit them. We should strike Saudi Arabia first.

kuang1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

He's due a few more bans imho.

No I disagree.
He made an ill-judged decision (and maybe alcohol fuelled, but that's no excuse either) to confront a player on the field. That player was responsible for some very questionable public comments this week. This was after the game was finished and after the same player had been awarded MOTM.

Confrontation between a fan and a player should never happen. Ever.
A lifetime ban from the stadium is sufficient and justified.
And that should be the end of it.

Shefwedfan

kuang1 wrote: »

No I disagree.
He made an ill-judged decision (and maybe alcohol fuelled, but that's no excuse either) to confront a player on the field. That player was responsible for some very questionable public comments this week. This was after the game was finished and after the same player had been awarded MOTM.

Confrontation between a fan and a player should never happen. Ever.
A lifetime ban from the stadium is sufficient and justified.
And that should be the end of it.

Do not agree. Alcohol is no excuse.

Lifetime ban from all stadiums.....

Tomtom364

Lads can we not park all the Billy V crap or take it to PM's/a dedicated thread. This is ment to be about a game of rugby. So could ye all just stick to the rugby?


Munster will and should be a bit disappointed with themselves. Not a stellar performance, but not a particularly bad one either. Just beaten by a much better team with let's be honest, we all expected to happen. If Munster were going to win they needed to be on absolutely peak form and to catch sarries on the hop. Didn't happen today.

I find it a bit halarious when people are on here saying they are not a top team and that Connacht/Ulster etc etc are better then them, the league and cup standings for the last few seasons would suggest otherwise. Including this season.

kuang1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do not agree. Alcohol is no excuse.

Damn... Wish I had said that....


Oh wait....

awec

That's enough about Billy Vunipola. This is the match thread, concentrate on the rugby please.

Burkie1203

kuang1 wrote: »

No I disagree.
He made an ill-judged decision (and maybe alcohol fuelled, but that's no excuse either) to confront a player on the field. That player was responsible for some very questionable public comments this week. This was after the game was finished and after the same player had been awarded MOTM.

Confrontation between a fan and a player should never happen. Ever.
A lifetime ban from the stadium is sufficient and justified.
And that should be the end of it.

"Munster management" think it might have been a Sarries fan inn a Munster jersey

awec

Former Former wrote: »

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

The more I see of Beirne, the more sure I am that he's not test quality.

Stander just looks knackered. Needs a long summer break.

Bingo.

clsmooth

Not sure I buy the Stander needs rest argument. That’s been going around for 2 years. He’s been one dimensional for a while. Hasn’t added a passing game. People know what he’s going to do. I’m sure welsh fans had similar feelings about Andy Powell a few years ago. That’s not having a go at him, he just been worked out. He’ll do well in a pack going forward but he’s not the man to change the momentum of a game with a big moment.

Shefwedfan

I was listening to podcast and it was mentioned Munster resigned Mathewson again for start of next season, they will have 5-6 9’s knocking around the squad

Bylendall resigned as well?

I think they need to stop signing average players and wasting money, they need to go out and buy 1-2 high quality players. Otherwise they are never getting any further. Even with Earls and Carberry on pitch today they would not have won.

baas baa

This one has to fall on the coaches, the lack of progress in the last 2 seasons in attack is an indictment, this despite the improvements in personnel. Watching Munster today you would think minimal time is devoted on the training pitch to breaking down a stubborn defence. Set plays, decoy runners, different angles of running, they're almost non-existent.

Tomtom364

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was listening to podcast and it was mentioned Munster resigned Mathewson again for start of next season, they will have 5-6 9’s knocking around the squad

Bylendall resigned as well?

I think they need to stop signing average players and wasting money, they need to go out and buy 1-2 high quality players. Otherwise they are never getting any further. Even with Earls and Carberry on pitch today they would not have won.

Matthewson is signed up to December.

Hart & Williams to be released.

Munster halfbacks Next Season:
Murray, Mathewson, Cronin, McCarthy
Carbery, Tyler, JJH, Bill Johnston

kuang1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was listening to podcast and it was mentioned Munster resigned Mathewson again for start of next season, they will have 5-6 9’s knocking around the squad

Bylendall resigned as well?

I think they need to stop signing average players and wasting money, they need to go out and buy 1-2 high quality players. Otherwise they are never getting any further. Even with Earls and Carberry on pitch today they would not have won.

Have you forgotten about Japan?
Mathewson is a brilliant scrum half. Munster simply don't have any other scrum half on their books as good.
No brainer to keep him on.

The quality of your posts is declining sir/ms.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

A fact yet again which will be quickly forgotten when another match is won. Munster haven’t been a quality side since 2008. A side which unfortunately hasn’t evolved much in their style of play since then either, a style which is easily outplayed by the bigger teams. The facts are there, one trophy in 10 years and that was in 2011 off the backs of a very tired and probably still drunk Leinster.

Henry Ford III

kuang1 wrote:

Confrontation between a fan and a player should never happen. Ever. A lifetime ban from the stadium is sufficient and justified. And that should be the end of it.

We have played there in 11 years

Del.Monte

Disappointed but not surprised.

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

Mathewson is a brilliant scrum half. Munster simply don't have any other scrum half on their books as good.
No brainer to keep him on.

They should keep him on until December and that should be that. Today highlighted why. He's 34 at that point and already isn't trusted to come in to replace a tiring Murray until the 74th minute. The need elsewhere in the team is greater for positions where Munster can actually strengthen starting positions, most notably openside or tighthead in my opinion.

A top class tight head post RWC (if they could attract/afford one) or a back row player of the quality of Coetzee could be a massive boost to that pack.

Shefwedfan

kuang1 wrote: »

Have you forgotten about Japan?
Mathewson is a brilliant scrum half. Munster simply don't have any other scrum half on their books as good.
No brainer to keep him on.

The quality of your posts is declining sir/ms.

Have you forgotten about Nick McCarthy? He was signed to back up Murray

Is it 5 games in the Pro 14 during WC Munster might have to play, all against poor teams who will have all senior players at WC as well

McCarthy should be playing all those games so he settles in....

Buer

Munster obviously will be gutted but I don't think too many will be surprised. That's not a criticism of Munster but more a comment on my belief that Saracens are champions in waiting and have been the best side in the tournament to date comfortably.

Munster aren't in the top 2-3 sides in Europe but that's no shame. There are generally only ever a few top level sides who are going to win the tournament. It's Saracens and Leinster at the moment...it was Toulon and Saracens before, Leinster and Clermont, Munster and Toulouse etc. Once in a while the likes of Ulster, Northampton or Saracens (when they first reached the final) slip into the final where they're clearly second best.

Munster are top of that following group though and are well worth a semi final spot on that basis. Lucky draws and big one off games does not get you to the semi final in consecutive years. Incredibly tough defence and the ability to convert possession into scores does though and that's what Munster have. Today, they faced a top quality side and couldn't match them. Despite the score at half time, I think the writing was on the wall at that stage in terms of the territory and actual balance of play. A couple of big signings and they could step clear of the chasing pack and deservely be in the top group. The likes of Leinster are ageing and have lost multiple big names; I think this season is their swansong in that top group.

The worry for Munster is that every team has a window to achieve success before they need to rebuild. Munster have a core group of key players that are all of a very similar age. Earls, Murray, POM, Stander, Kilcoyne, Archer/Ryan....the spine of the Munster team and all of them will be the wrong side of 30 next season. If Munster are going to move to that next level, I think they have about 2 more years to do it before the performance levels of a couple of those start to decline and there aren't replacements in the panel that immediately jump out mostly because it will be near impossible to replace guys of that quality.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I wouldn't be against Munster winning the Pro14 at all now. They're a good side, have focus on the league and will be hugely motivated to come up with the results....most likely against Leinster and then Glasgow.

Squatter

Buer wrote: »

Munster obviously will be gutted but I don't think too many will be surprised. That's not a criticism of Munster but more a comment on my belief that Saracens are champions in waiting and have been the best side in the tournament to date comfortably.

Munster aren't in the top 2-3 sides in Europe but that's no shame. There are generally only ever a few top level sides who are going to win the tournament. It's Saracens and Leinster at the moment...it was Toulon and Saracens before, Leinster and Clermont, Munster and Toulouse etc. Once in a while the likes of Ulster, Northampton or Saracens (when they first reached the final) slip into the final where they're clearly second best.

Munster are top of that following group though and are well worth a semi final spot on that basis. Lucky draws and big one off games does not get you to the semi final in consecutive years. Incredibly tough defence and the ability to convert possession into scores does though and that's what Munster have. Today, they faced a top quality side and couldn't match them. Despite the score at half time, I think the writing was on the wall at that stage in terms of the territory and actual balance of play. A couple of big signings and they could step clear of the chasing pack and deservely be in the top group. The likes of Leinster are ageing and have lost multiple big names; I think this season is their swansong in that top group.

The worry for Munster is that every team has a window to achieve success before they need to rebuild. Munster have a core group of key players that are all of a very similar age. Earls, Murray, POM, Stander, Kilcoyne, Archer/Ryan....the spine of the Munster team and all of them will be the wrong side of 30 next season. If Munster are going to move to that next level, I think they have about 2 more years to do it before the performance levels of a couple of those start to decline and there aren't replacements in the panel that immediately jump out mostly because it will be near impossible to replace guys of that quality.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I wouldn't be against Munster winning the Pro14 at all now. They're a good side, have focus on the league and will be hugely motivated to come up with the results....most likely against Leinster and then Glasgow.

If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.

thomond2006

Squatter wrote: »

If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.

This game cannot happen. Munster, if they win their QF, will travel to Leinster.

durthacht

Surprised by all the chat on here about Munster's backs as it seems to me the problem was the forwards were utterly dominated. This seems to have been an unfortunate trend in most of their recent semis.

Kilcoyne did well, with a couple of the others having good moments. But overall I thought Saracens dominated the forward battle.

If a side can't get possession, and can't get attacking ball, then it doesn't really matter who is in the backs.

AbusesToilets

Former Former wrote: »

POM is very good but he's surrounded by a lot of players who aren't. Not that they're bad players but they are not European winning quality.

The more I see of Beirne, the more sure I am that he's not test quality.

Stander just looks knackered. Needs a long summer break.

That's a bit of a cop out imo. POM was similarly non existent for Ireland, surrounded by better players. To my mind, he's excellent as a defensive lineout jumper, one of the best in the world. Outside of that, he's pretty ordinary.

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

joseywhales

Gone are the days of Wallace and Leamy, those guys would actually dominate collisions with the likes of vunipola. I don't know where you find players like that, they just have to produce them. All of these semi appearances are a good achievement, to be top four for the guts of a decade and top two before that.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

Whilst I expect Doris to get there (he's not yet), neither Penny nor Deegan are physically dominant players and I'm not sure either ever will be.

They should be aiming to get someone of a similar ilk to Coetzee or Louw and they need them now. I suspect they'll be looking at the post-RWC exodus to pick up someone. By the time someone like Doris becomes the player I think he will be, POM and Stander will be sitting in the stands.

baas baa

Kilcoyne and Stander are Munsters most important ball carriers but I think in some ways they are a symptom of Munster's problems, there was a couple of instances in the 2nd half where Munster had numbers on the short side but once the ball ended up in Kilcoyne or Standers hands that was that, they instinctively looked to run over the opposition player and killed the momentum. The top sides nowadays have forwards who are able to recognise an opportunity and have the hands to execute it, defences are better than they were 10 years ago. It's noticeable in Leinsters case at least, that the forwards they produce now are generally as good as their backs at handling the ball. I don't think that's the case in Munster though it's a tough comparison with the difference in numbers coming through, I think there needs to be a culture change in Munster. Even young Hodnett, who was superb for the u-20s, seems more of an abrasive, head down and scrap for metres type of carrier.

Buer

joseywhales wrote: »

Gone are the days of Wallace and Leamy, those guys would actually dominate collisions with the likes of vunipola. I don't know where you find players like that, they just have to produce them. All of these semi appearances are a good achievement, to be top four for the guts of a decade and top two before that.

As good as they were, I'm not sure there's a player that Irish rugby has ever produced that would dominate a collision with Vunipola. Tadhg Furlong possibly at his best.

Vunipola is probably the best No. 8 in world rugby. He has footwork as good as an openside and is 20 stone. Leamy and Wallace would do well to physically dominate him in a collision together.

thomond2006

Buer's long summary posts ease the pain. A unique form of pashun displayed by the written word.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop out imo. POM was similarly non existent for Ireland, surrounded by better players. To my mind, he's excellent as a defensive lineout jumper, one of the best in the world. Outside of that, he's pretty ordinary.

Munster need better options in the backrow, players who can be physically dominant and play with the ball in hand. If they were smart, they'd be going all in trying to poach one of Doris/ Deegan/ Penny from Leinster.

So the answer to your issues is to rob your neighbours of players to fill the holes. Should Munster not be drawing down from their own academy or asking why aren’t we producing good enough players.

Leinster are losing and have lost Murphy, O’Brien and probably Leavy from the backrow. What makes you think that any of the three you mention would be allowed leave. By the way that’s not including all the other players moving on as well.

Leinster won’t be of a mind to allow anymore leave to rivals. Especially as has been shown this season that they have had multiple injuries that have required playing academy players or having them in the 23.

Tigerandahalf

No surprises with Munster today. They are still stagnant as a side. While they have got to a few semi-finals that has flattered them in many ways.

Creatively they offer very little and the skill levels are poor. Rob Penney came in for 2 years and tried to develop them into a passing side but the players don't have the handling skills to carry out the game plan.

They also lack quality players. Zebo is a loss as Haley is quite average. They really need to move Conway to fb and Sweetnam and Earls on the wings.

I hope they have a few talented players coming through as bringing in the likes of Cloete and Botha - average players - are just holding back Irish prospects.

They really need a big signing or 2.

I know Conor Murray is rated highly by many but for me his tactics slow the game down far too much. Too many box kicks with the pace gone out of the game.

leakyboots

Sigh, tough day at the office but not unexpected, we were beaten by the better team. Could have done with Earls and Carberry on the pitch but not sure it'd have made a difference.

Similar to others, I don't think Felix is cutting the mustard. We're scoring buckets of tries but yet we can't say the backs are impressing. He's had long enough and I think it's time to give a proven name a shot. More than happy for him to do an Axel and step sideways and learn, he's young and hungry so he might be up for that.

Complete nonsense about Stander not passing (did ye even watch the 6 Nations) and POM being useless, they weren't at fault today.

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

Sometimes you get beaten by the better team, we met the winners today. Leinster or Toulouse won't get near them.

Also, fair play Faugheen, I don't always agree with your posts but BT were shameful today in their narrative. The drunken idiot who went onto the pitch is just that, Billy V didn't help things giving it to the fans mins. Outside of that he had a fine game.

This team will win silverware yet, I wouldn't be so downbeat as others.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes you think that any of the three you mention would be allowed leave.

Because Leinster don't get to dictate the lives of their players.

If Munster approach Deegan and tell him they want to put Stander to 6, POM to 7 and make him their starting 8 for European rugby...what do you think his reaction will be?

I'm not sure, personally. The only thing I'd be very confident of is that he'd think long and hard about it.

The fact is that Deegan, Doris and Conan are all specialist No. 8s by trade and something will have to change in the next 2-3 years there whether one of them alters their game completely to play flanker permanently or one of them departs.

Burkie1203

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I know Conor Murray is rated highly by many but for me his tactics slow the game down far too much. Too many box kicks with the pace gone out of the game.

I think part of that is with Stander for example he tries to stay on his feet and get every last inch. But this allows opponents get defence sorted which enables good linespeed continue received so Murray is then forced to kick


Sarries negated Munster strengths somewhat by keeping the ball on the park and backed themselves to cut out any counter attack and not allow Munster to lineout/maul

leakyboots

Also, Murray played well. There's some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him since the Six Nations.

Buer

leakyboots wrote: »

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

What the hell was the story there? There were a few solid kicks that were certainly contestable and Munster just let Goode catch them comfortably and distribute untouched. It was very unlike Munster and looked like a pre-determined approach?

On the other side, I thought Spencer was sensational and his kicking game was spot on. It was only as good as the chasing that went on behind it though from guys like Strettle and Williams.

Buer

leakyboots wrote: »

some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him

Well that escalated.

shootermacg

durthacht wrote: »

Surprised by all the chat on here about Munster's backs as it seems to me the problem was the forwards were utterly dominated. This seems to have been an unfortunate trend in most of their recent semis.

I don't think they were dominated at all. I think they did really well. We were limited in attack and to a certain extent fielding. Unless we improve in attack, we'll not win anything, but in saying that..a good play-making 12 might be just what the doctor ordered.

Expecting your play-maker to be at 9 is just too narrow. Sweetnam's kick-chase was also terrible, I'm not sure about him as an option anymore, he seems to have reached his ceiling.

joseywhales

leakyboots wrote: »

Sigh, tough day at the office but not unexpected, we were beaten by the better team. Could have done with Earls and Carberry on the pitch but not sure it'd have made a difference.

Similar to others, I don't think Felix is cutting the mustard. We're scoring buckets of tries but yet we can't say the backs are impressing. He's had long enough and I think it's time to give a proven name a shot. More than happy for him to do an Axel and step sideways and learn, he's young and hungry so he might be up for that.

Complete nonsense about Stander not passing (did ye even watch the 6 Nations) and POM being useless, they weren't at fault today.

Thought our kick chase was poor (did we even challenge in the air after the first quarter?) and we gave away brainless penalties that gifted them points and territory. But they seriously pressured us.

Sometimes you get beaten by the better team, we met the winners today. Leinster or Toulouse won't get near them.

Also, fair play Faugheen, I don't always agree with your posts but BT were shameful today in their narrative. The drunken idiot who went onto the pitch is just that, Billy V didn't help things giving it to the fans mins. Outside of that he had a fine game.

This team will win silverware yet, I wouldn't be so downbeat as others.

I still think Toulouse have the pack to take on Saracens(I think Kaino can handle Vunipola for example), I have no idea about Leinster, it depends if all of their returning players somehow magically all hit form at the same time, then we have a chance.

Former Former

leakyboots wrote: »

There's some people on here with a serious hard on no matter what to stick it in him