Saracens vs Munster, Sat 20th April, 3pm

Tigerandahalf

Stander is average when you compare him to the top 8s. The guy would run through a wall for you but like many Saffers he is more brute than skill.
He is not the greatest passer of a ball and that is perhaps why he goes into contact so much and as he is smaller it is more difficult for him to offload out of the tackle.

Munster could really do with speed in that backrow.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

What the hell was the story there? There were a few solid kicks that were certainly contestable and Munster just let Goode catch them comfortably and distribute untouched. It was very unlike Munster and looked like a pre-determined approach?

On the other side, I thought Spencer was sensational and his kicking game was spot on. It was only as good as the chasing that went on behind it though from guys like Strettle and Williams.

Munster just completely gave up on the territory battle. Bizarre really.

Spencer was great. Worrying that they have him there when Wigglesworth moves on...

Whiplash85

What a performance from Vunipola today after an eventful week. He destroyed Munster.

Whiplash85

Whiplash85 wrote: »

What a performance from Vunipola today after an eventful week. He destroyed Munster.

The fact that he played so well stoked up the moral outrage level possibly.

leakyboots

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Stander is average when you compare him to the top 8s. The guy would run through a wall for you but like many Saffers he is more brute than skill.
He is not the greatest passer of a ball and that is perhaps why he goes into contact so much and as he is smaller it is more difficult for him to offload out of the tackle.

Munster could really do with speed in that backrow.

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter. Complete nonsense about not passing too, one of only two forwards to offload today (on a day when virtually noone on the team offloaded). Used as a hinge for Ireland. Top passer in the pack in other games this season. This is just wishful thinking. Top tackler today and same amount of carries as Farrell... who made a whole 6 extra yards with ball in hand). And he's bloody fast in open space too.

CJ isn't the fault we lost today, we met a better team. Our backplay couldn't bail us out when we needed it to either

Clareman

Very disappointed with today, we didn't adjust at half time at all and our weaknesses of replacements and backs was exposed again, I fear we're never going to break the semi final glass ceiling.

Burkie1203

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter.

If a Lions 23 got picked today Stander wouldn't be anywhere near it IMO

Vunipola is way ahead of him
Faletau if fit is better

Buer

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter.

Whilst I disagree with the criticism he's getting (and he can distribute, he just doesn't whether by orders or his own style), if a Lions squad was picked in the morning, he'd be borderline.

Any Irish back row player would be fortunate to travel and POM would be ahead of Stander.

Shefwedfan

leakyboots wrote: »

He really isn't average. If a Lions team were being picked in the morning he'd be borderline starter. Complete nonsense about not passing too, one of only two forwards to offload today (on a day when virtually noone on the team offloaded). Used as a hinge for Ireland. Top passer in the pack in other games this season. This is just wishful thinking. Top tackler today and same amount of carries as Farrell... who made a whole 6 extra yards with ball in hand). And he's bloody fast in open space too.

CJ isn't the fault we lost today, we met a better team. Our backplay couldn't bail us out when we needed it to either

He isn't average but he isn't going to make the Lions team or be borderline....to explain, the Lions normally gets picked based on 6 nations performance and after this season I would suggest very few Ireland players would make the cut



I think he is better at 6.....he is playing 8 to accomodate POM but I think his best position is at 6

Dubinusa

Billy V is better than Stander. A lot better.

mfceiling

Buer wrote: »

As good as they were, I'm not sure there's a player that Irish rugby has ever produced that would dominate a collision with Vunipola.

Stephen Ferris knows where you live Buer...

Buer

mfceiling wrote: »

Stephen Ferris knows where you live Buer...

I've seen Fez in action; I doubt the lad can read a map.

Squatter

thomond2006 wrote: »

This game cannot happen. Munster, if they win their QF, will travel to Leinster.

So you've already ruled out finishing top of your pool?

Because if you do, then the game can happen.

thomond2006

Squatter wrote: »

So you've already ruled out finishing top of your pool?

Because if you do, then the game can happen.

Pretty much. I can't see Glasgow losing to Edinburgh.

shootermacg

Dubinusa wrote: »

Billy V is better than Stander. A lot better.

And Billy V is better than Conan. A lot better.

thomond2006

Bleyendaal got the hook quite early today. Was he especially poor? I don't recall any howlers tbh and Saracens had the majority of possession anyway.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bleyendaal got the hook quite early today. Was he especially poor? I don't recall any howlers tbh and Saracens had the majority of possession anyway.

Nope. You can't do anything without the ball. Nailed his kicks, passed well. He gave away a penalty that happens about 20 times in any game; I was surprised it was spotted.

The only thing that Carbery has/had over him is the fact that Saracens could rush up hard and hit the Munster midfield knowing TB didn't have the step and acceleration to hurt them that Carbery does which would have kept them slightly deeper. But it would have made zero difference to the result.

Tomtom364

Buer wrote: »

Nope. You can't do anything without the ball. Nailed his kicks, passed well. He gave away a penalty that happens about 20 times in any game; I was surprised it was spotted.

The only thing that Carbery has/had over him is the fact that Saracens could rush up hard and hit the Munster midfield knowing TB didn't have the step and acceleration to hurt them that Carbery does which would have kept them slightly deeper. But it would have made zero difference to the result.

Tyler was taken off not because of poor performance but to bring JJH on and change from failed territory game to a running game.

leakyboots

I thought JJ did well enough in the circumstances

Dubinusa

shootermacg wrote: »

Dubinusa wrote: »

Billy V is better than Stander. A lot better.

And Billy V is better than Conan. A lot better.

Who mentioned Conan? Speaking about Stander

Utopia Parkway

Don't think there is any great shame for Munster. They are a consistently good side. Just not as good as the top 2 or 3 sides in Europe.

I think Leinster will very possibly struggle with Saracens too this year if they even get past Toulouse.

Faugheen

I didn't think POM played too badly yesterday? We know my thoughts on his limitations but he absolutely worked his bollocks off, especially in defence.

One thing that did go against him though was Garces was having none of his bollock-acting. He got pinged earlier in the game trying to steal and after that Garces would not let him contest for the ball on the deck.

That was a tough day at the office. Munster are consistently making the last 4 in Europe but what do people think is missing to take that last step? I can't remember every SF to be honest but the recent ones haven't been particularly close.

I do think Saracens will win it this year, have been saying that since early in the season.

Erik Shun

Serenity Broad Senselessness wrote: »

That was a tough day at the office. Munster are consistently making the last 4 in Europe but what do people think is missing to take that last step? I can't remember every SF to be honest but the recent ones haven't been particularly close.

I do think Saracens will win it this year, have been saying that since early in the season.

We lack 1 or 2 players to push us over the edge...in recent years Leinster have had Isa and Lowe...players that can create something from nothing....
It's been very quiet on the rumour mill here.. normally we'd have an inkling of whos coming in by now.. but so far, nothing...Taute is leaving.. Kleyn is becoming IQ ... Marshall will be just after the world cup...we need 1 or 2 players with spark and imagination to just take us up a level....as it is...you can count on one hand (and have some fingers left over) the teams that will beat Munster in a semi final... but as things stand..they will always beat us, unless we improve certain areas.

An attack coach is needed too, that's a given... but it won't solve our issues without fresh blood

Jump_In_Jack

“Quote: Squatter
If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.”

thomond2006 wrote: »

This game cannot happen. Munster, if they win their QF, will travel to Leinster.

If Munster beat Connacht and Edinburgh beat Glasgow then Munster would have a home semi-final against winner between Connacht and Ulster.

Burkie1203

Serenity Broad Senselessness wrote: »

That was a tough day at the office. Munster are consistently making the last 4 in Europe but what do people think is missing to take that last step? I can't remember every SF to be honest but the recent ones haven't been particularly close.

I do think Saracens will win it this year, have been saying that since early in the season.

IMO it's a Lack of ball carriers up front (carriers who are effective in traffic).

Kleyn and Beirne don't provide that. Kleyn had that 15-20m break up the left off loose ball but apart from that was ineffective
POM and JOD don't carry effectively either

Sarries pack yesterday had 5 carriers in double figures. Billy V had 21 while Mako, Itoje, Kruis and Rhodes shared 45 carries fairly evenly between them. Mako and Kruis didnt have gainline success but it was quick ball for the next carrier (Billy or Itoje) to make yards.

Kilcoyne and Stander were the only Munster forwards to carry in double figures. Beirne and POM had 11 carries between them for 8 metres

Stander did What he always does but the ball Sarries had was on a plate for Spencer. They were prepared to run off quick ball as opposed to going over the gain line because 2 or 3 quick rucks will present a gap to make the yards. It's the opposite of what Stander tries to do.

Jump_In_Jack

I thought Munster were unlucky,
Saracens collapsed the Munster maul going towards the try line and the ball was passed to Farrell who was tackled and held up and ref blew up. Why didn’t it go back for the penalty for collapsing the maul?

Saracens knocked the ball forward in a lineout and they gathered it on the ground which lead to one of their tries but the officials missed it.

Two turning points that could have changed the game.

Other than that I thought Beirne getting penalized for winning the ball in the ground was a terrible call.

I also thought Saracens were routinely offside.

People getting carried away saying it was one-sided when there were a few key moments that went against us, Munster would have taken more kicks at goal if it were closer on the scoreboard.

Beirne’s knock-on was a big momentum killer and John Ryan tackling the wrong player to leave the Saracens 6 jog over the line untouched was a sickener.

I thought Goggin should have started ahead of Scannell in the centre.

I’m not too worried about getting new signings for next season, we have enough good players, we just need a bit of luck and perhaps to try out a few players next season, Wycherley/Coombes/O’Shea could be getting more game-time and Holland could move to backrow.

Faugheen

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I thought Munster were unlucky,
Saracens collapsed the Munster maul going towards the try line and the ball was passed to Farrell who was tackled and held up and ref blew up. Why didn’t it go back for the penalty for collapsing the maul?

Saracens knocked the ball forward in a lineout and they gathered it on the ground which lead to one of their tries but the officials missed it.

Two turning points that could have changed the game.

Other than that I thought Beirne getting penalized for winning the ball in the ground was a terrible call.

I also thought Saracens were routinely offside.

People getting carried away saying it was one-sided when there were a few key moments that went against us, Munster would have taken more kicks at goal if it were closer on the scoreboard.

Beirne’s knock-on was a big momentum killer and John Ryan tackling the wrong player to leave the Saracens 6 jog over the line untouched was a sickener.

I thought Goggin should have started ahead of Scannell in the centre.

I’m not too worried about getting new signings for next season, we have enough good players, we just need a bit of luck and perhaps to try out a few players next season, Wycherley/Coombes/O’Shea could be getting more game-time and Holland could move to backrow.

Munster also won a penalty as Saracens were beating them down towards the tryline when Stander poached the ball from an offside position.

Don't get me started on that scrum that led to Munster's try, and Murray rolling the ball forward.

Munster had a couple of things go against them, but they also had a couple of potential game changers go for them which they didn't take any advantage of.

They were soundly beaten by the best team in the competition. Nothing more, nothing less.

Burkie1203

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I thought Munster were unlucky,
Saracens collapsed the Munster maul going towards the try line and the ball was passed to Farrell who was tackled and held up and ref blew up. Why didn’t it go back for the penalty for collapsing the maul?

Saracens knocked the ball forward in a lineout and they gathered it on the ground which lead to one of their tries but the officials missed it.

Two turning points that could have changed the game.

Other than that I thought Beirne getting penalized for winning the ball in the ground was a terrible call.

I also thought Saracens were routinely offside.

People getting carried away saying it was one-sided when there were a few key moments that went against us, Munster would have taken more kicks at goal if it were closer on the scoreboard.

Ref called it as Munster dropping the maul, same way he called against Saracens in first half.

The Beirne one was 50-50. Garces signalled it was already a ruck. Would need to see a replay.

Munsters try came off JOD kicking the ball and Murray knocked it on. Try should never have stood. Should have been a Sarries scrum or else a pen

In the build up to Billy Vs try Garces said it went backwards IIRC


Both sides were offside a lot and both sides didn't bother throwing straight at the lineout. Its the standard norm now.

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I thought Munster were unlucky,
Saracens collapsed the Munster maul going towards the try line and the ball was passed to Farrell who was tackled and held up and ref blew up. Why didn’t it go back for the penalty for collapsing the maul?

Saracens knocked the ball forward in a lineout and they gathered it on the ground which lead to one of their tries but the officials missed it.

Two turning points that could have changed the game.

Other than that I thought Beirne getting penalized for winning the ball in the ground was a terrible call.

I also thought Saracens were routinely offside.

People getting carried away saying it was one-sided when there were a few key moments that went against us, Munster would have taken more kicks at goal if it were closer on the scoreboard.

Beirne’s knock-on was a big momentum killer and John Ryan tackling the wrong player to leave the Saracens 6 jog over the line untouched was a sickener.

I thought Goggin should have started ahead of Scannell in the centre.

I’m not too worried about getting new signings for next season, we have enough good players, we just need a bit of luck and perhaps to try out a few players next season, Wycherley/Coombes/O’Shea could be getting more game-time and Holland could move to backrow.

I think you need to watch the game again

Buer

Ryan was out numbered. He had two men coming on a short ball line at him and picked one. Not his fault at all. If he had gone for Rhodes, they could have just tipped on a pass to score also.

Jump_In_Jack

Buer wrote: »

Ryan was out numbered. He had two men coming on a short ball line at him and picked one. Not his fault at all. If he had gone for Rhodes, they could have just tipped on a pass to score also.

Better to force the pass than allow the simple try.

jacothelad

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

“Quote: Squatter
If next weekend's results go as expected, my money would be on Ulster to beat them in Thomond in the semi.”



If Munster beat Connacht and Edinburgh beat Glasgow then Munster would have a home semi-final against winner between Connacht and Ulster.

Much as I'd like to think you are correct, I simply can't. Ulster, with every one of this season's players fit and game ready might get close but really that has not happened for years. Next season's player intake might just bring Ulster up to a level which would allow them to be competitive.. As things stand Munster's forwards have too much oomph and despite talented backs, the whole seems to be less than the sum of the parts should produce.


Ulster have improved over the season but they are too inconsistent.

irishbucsfan

Has there been any statement from Munster on the fan who jumped on the pitch and went after Vunipola? I assume he'll be banned, but don't see anything?

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Has there been any statement from Munster on the fan who jumped on the pitch and went after Vunipola? I assume he'll be banned, but don't see anything?

One quote from Munster saying it could be a sarries fan

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1119665169389498368?s=19

Former Former

Burkie1203 wrote: »

One quote from Munster saying it could be a sarries fan

A Sarries fan wearing a Munster jersey.

The Munster press officer actually said that. That's awful.

salmocab

Burkie1203 wrote: »

One quote from Munster saying it could be a sarries fan

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1119665169389498368?s=19

Whilst he was right not to answer the question saying it could be a Sarries fan in a Munster jersey is stupid. He should have just said we have to look into the incident but it’s not acceptable for supporters to enter the field and left it at that.

Buer

Jump_In_Jack wrote:

Better to force the pass than allow the simple try.

He's a prop defending three out from a ruck in a stretched defence with two open men running hard at him. It's incredibly harsh to blame him.

Jump_In_Jack

Buer wrote: »

He's a prop defending three out from a ruck in a stretched defence with two open men running hard at him. It's incredibly harsh to blame him.

I don’t agree, there were Munster players to his left and he took the second player out leaving the first player a big gap.
Always should take the inside man and force the ball further out where there is support coming.
Also looked like Ryan got it wrong by shooting up instead of holding the line, just poor defending whether he was a prop or not shouldn’t matter.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

A Sarries fan wearing a Munster jersey.

The Munster press officer actually said that. That's awful.

Someone caught up believing their own ****e

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

A Sarries fan wearing a Munster jersey.

The Munster press officer actually said that. That's awful.

Apparently Billy shouldnt have gone on the lap with the Sarries team according to quite a few Munster fans on Twitter. Some of the stuff is mega cringe. It's rugby. Fans tend to be mingled together.

sydthebeat

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I don’t agree, there were Munster players to his left and he took the second player out leaving the first player a big gap.
Always should take the inside man and force the ball further out where there is support coming.
Also looked like Ryan got it wrong by shooting up instead of holding the line, just poor defending whether he was a prop or not shouldn’t matter.

He tossed a coin and picked the wrong result.

The pass could easily have been a skip due to how close the attackers were to each other.

Not his fault in the slightest.

is_that_so

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ref called it as Munster dropping the maul, same way he called against Saracens in first half.

The Beirne one was 50-50. Garces signalled it was already a ruck. Would need to see a replay.

Munsters try came off JOD kicking the ball and Murray knocked it on. Try should never have stood. Should have been a Sarries scrum or else a pen

In the build up to Billy Vs try Garces said it went backwards IIRC


Both sides were offside a lot and both sides didn't bother throwing straight at the lineout. Its the standard norm now.

Yeah, Garces was selective in what he spotted! For a neutral it was a pulsating match but not really the best quality. Saracens were dropping the ball over the place and disjointed at times, but had the game plan and the players to implement it.

theoneeyedman

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Has there been any statement from Munster on the fan who jumped on the pitch and went after Vunipola? I assume he'll be banned, but don't see anything?

Rugby fans are quick to compare soccer fans and players when they misbehave, but if this was a soccer game/stadium, there would likely be a big fine and a stern warning from uefa for the encroachment onto the pitch to confront Billy. Sections of the munster support embarrassed themselves all day, booing Billy especially, and if anything riling and galvanising the saracen team. Best supporters eh....

On the game, huge gap between the sides. Saracen a seriously powerful outfit, forwards dominated and if anything should have won by more. Earls and Carbery were probably losses alright, but in truth the dominance of the saracen pack was enough to make their absences mostly moot.

irishbucsfan

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Rugby fans are quick to compare soccer fans and players when they misbehave, but if this was a soccer game/stadium, there would likely be a big fine and a stern warning from uefa for the encroachment onto the pitch to confront Billy. Sections of the munster support embarrassed themselves all day, booing Billy especially, and if anything riling and galvanising the saracen team. Best supporters eh....

On the game, huge gap between the sides. Saracen a seriously powerful outfit, forwards dominated and if anything should have won by more. Earls and Carbery were probably losses alright, but in truth the dominance of the saracen pack was enough to make their absences mostly moot.

I’ve no real problem with booing Vunipola, unpopular players have been booed since the sport began. But that lad thinking it’s alright to run on the pitch at a player or yer man calling Farrell a prick when he was lining up his kick were both terrible moments that let the team down.

For all the moral superiority people have gotten from (rightfully) criticising the coverage of Vunipola, there was some shameful stuff from the Munster fans yesterday. Between that and sectarian abuse from Leinster fans I’d hope the teams start properly addressing shocking behavior from Irish rugby fans.

Burkie1203

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Rugby fans are quick to compare soccer fans and players when they misbehave, but if this was a soccer game/stadium, there would likely be a big fine and a stern warning from uefa for the encroachment onto the pitch to confront Billy. Sections of the munster support embarrassed themselves all day, booing Billy especially, and if anything riling and galvanising the saracen team. Best supporters eh....
.

Munster fans are perfectly entitled to boo Billy V.
Confronting him is a big no go for me because it can potentially escalate into something more serious

Saracens are a team who don't care much for the stands during games. They just play the game.

is_that_so

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’ve no real problem with booing Vunipola, unpopular players have been booed since the sport began. But that lad thinking it’s alright to run on the pitch at a player or yer man calling Farrell a prick when he was lining up his kick were both terrible moments that let the team down.

For all the moral superiority people have gotten from (rightfully) criticising the coverage of Vunipola, there was some shameful stuff from the Munster fans yesterday. Between that and sectarian abuse from Leinster fans I’d hope the teams start properly addressing shocking behavior from Irish rugby fans.

It's almost inevitable that this stuff would roll over from other sports as marketing continues to stoke the fires by classifying games as some form of gladiatorial combat. Some simpler types get sucked up into it.

PetKing

Faugheen wrote:

One thing that did go against him though was Garces was having none of his bollock-acting. He got pinged earlier in the game trying to steal and after that Garces would not let him contest for the ball on the deck.

We needed him to play like more of a twat as you say, and the rest of them too. It was too cpean. Saracens rucking was very questionable throughout the match. Munster should have met them there and played dirtier. It wasn't being checked at all.

Faugheen

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Munster fans are perfectly entitled to boo Billy V.
Confronting him is a big no go for me because it can potentially escalate into something more serious

Saracens are a team who don't care much for the stands during games. They just play the game.

This for me. He was rightfully booed but stepping onto the pitch to confront him crosses the line for me.

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Between that and sectarian abuse from Leinster fans I’d hope the teams start properly addressing shocking behavior from Irish rugby fans.

There was one clown removed from Aviva 3 weeks ago after he was reported to stewards/gardai

Was there any other incident.?