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Waterford Airport
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What time will you leave Dublin for Waterford this evening?
I live in Dublin - was visiting in-laws for the weekend.
Unless you're proposing that Waterford needs an upgraded airport to service daily commuters travelling to Dublin?
My example from this morning illustrates that, at possibly the worst time of day to travel from Waterford to Dublin, it still takes less than 150 minutes.
Not perfect - but considerably less than the "half a day" that we've had claimed on this thread so far.
If a commercial argument can be made for WAT being a self-sustained business once it gets a runway extension, then I'm all for it.
Unfortunately, it seems that people don't even try to make that kind of argument, and instead focus on emotional or parish-pump style "we deserve to have an airport because Cork has one"
Given the location of the airport, I'm struggling to see how it would attract significant passenger numbers from beyond the confines of Waterford City & county, south Tipp, Kilkenny, and south co. Wexford. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm not convinced the PAX numbers are there for WAT to succeed0 -
blackwhite wrote: »I live in Dublin - was visiting in-laws for the weekend.
Unless you're proposing that Waterford needs an upgraded airport to service daily commuters travelling to Dublin?
My example from this morning illustrates that, at possibly the worst time of day to travel from Waterford to Dublin, it still takes less than 150 minutes.
Not perfect - but considerably less than the "half a day" that we've had claimed on this thread so far.
If a commercial argument can be made for WAT being a self-sustained business once it gets a runway extension, then I'm all for it.
Unfortunately, it seems that people don't even try to make that kind of argument, and instead focus on emotional or parish-pump style "we deserve to have an airport because Cork has one"
Given the location of the airport, I'm struggling to see how it would attract significant passenger numbers from beyond the confines of Waterford City & county, south Tipp, Kilkenny, and south co. Wexford. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm not convinced the PAX numbers are there for WAT to succeed
And having to be there 2 hours before your flight means that if your flight is at 6 in the morning you’re leaving your house in Waterford at half 1.
Definitely “not perfect”, as you put it.0 -
Christy Browne wrote: »And having to be there 2 hours before your flight means that if your flight is at 6 in the morning you’re leaving your house in Waterford at half 1.
Definitely “not perfect”, as you put it.
Ireland is 114th out of 194 countries in the world for density, 69 people per square km. The UK is 32nd and has 272 per km2. Germany 41st and 232. There's a number of countries with similar populations to ours in that high range. There is no economically viable way to ensure that there will not be relatively significant groups of people in Ireland who do not have to travel an inconvenient journey to get to a well connected airport. Someone above asked what constitutes failure in a regional airport. I'd say it's an inability to sustain itself without subsidies of any kind, except where there is a distinct social need given a lack of any alternatives. And I'm sorry to say that inconvenient journeys is not a lack of alternatives.
If the people of the region want an airport that requires subsidies so they don't have to drive to Dublin or go up and stay in a hotel the night before, let them campaign for a special household tax in the area to pay for it. Government can run a little referendum for everyone who puts their hands up and let them decide. There's no pressing social need, just a desire to have a crap airport, a crap hospital and a crap railway line within 15 minutes of every parish in the country; supported by anyone looking for a few preferences in a local or European election.0 -
Ireland is 114th out of 194 countries in the world for density, 69 people per square km. The UK is 32nd and has 272 per km2. Germany 41st and 232. There's a number of countries with similar populations to ours in that high range. There is no economically viable way to ensure that there will not be relatively significant groups of people in Ireland who do not have to travel an inconvenient journey to get to a well connected airport. Someone above asked what constitutes failure in a regional airport. I'd say it's an inability to sustain itself without subsidies of any kind, except where there is a distinct social need given a lack of any alternatives. And I'm sorry to say that inconvenient journeys is not a lack of alternatives.
If the people of the region want an airport that requires subsidies so they don't have to drive to Dublin or go up and stay in a hotel the night before, let them campaign for a special household tax in the area to pay for it. Government can run a little referendum for everyone who puts their hands up and let them decide. There's no pressing social need, just a desire to have a crap airport, a crap hospital and a crap railway line within 15 minutes of every parish in the country; supported by anyone looking for a few preferences in a local or European election.
"Every parish in the country" you'd swear Waterford was some little boreen up in Connemara. It's Ireland's oldest and 5th largest city. The capital of the South East region which is home to over 500,000 people. For the South East to develop as a region and take pressure off Dublin an airport is needed to secure future growth. A mere 12 million is needed to extend the runway to cater for modern jets, with 7 million of that already been put forward by local authorities and private investors.
The local authorities in the South East are showing how much they want this and have been proactive in securing funding through their own means. Surely 5 million is a reasonable and positive gamble to take and try to inject some life into the region's economy.0 -
Christy Browne wrote: »"Every parish in the country" you'd swear Waterford was some little boreen up in Connemara. It's Ireland's oldest and 5th largest city. The capital of the South East region which is home to over 500,000 people. For the South East to develop as a region and take pressure off Dublin an airport is needed to secure future growth. A mere 12 million is needed to extend the runway to cater for modern jets, with 7 million of that already been put forward by local authorities and private investors.
The local authorities in the South East are showing how much they want this and have been proactive in securing funding through their own means. Surely 5 million is a reasonable and positive gamble to take and try to inject some life into the region's economy.
It has a population density of 63 per km2, representing 2.4% of the population and perfectly illustrates my point I would think. As for the cost, local authority money is still a public subsidy. And it's not just the cost of building the runway, it's the overall cost of running the show thereafter. There is not a successful example in the country of this development leading to a vibrant, sustainable (without subsidy) airport and this example is repeated in other countries.
People want services of a country with 3-4x the population density of Ireland.
Edit... Just to add re the 422,000 people who live in the SE region, the 2nd largest population center is Kilkenny, 40 minutes further to Dublin airport than Waterford; the 3rd largest population center is Carlow, ten minutes further drive to Dublin than Waterford; 4th is Wexford, 30 minutes more to Dublin. Not really a compelling argument again for supporting a capital and ongoing investment.0 -
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Christy Browne wrote: »And having to be there 2 hours before your flight means that if your flight is at 6 in the morning you’re leaving your house in Waterford at half 1.
Definitely “not perfect”, as you put it.
You think that it takes 2 and a half hours in the dark hours of the night? That traffic is comparable to morning rush hour? :rolleyes:
The "2 hours before your flight" is another myth pushed into these arguments as well. Unless travelling trans-atlantic (which even the most ardent haven't tried to claim should be brought to WAT), 60-90 min is the maximum needed to arrive in advance of a flight. If I've no checked luggage I'd never be more than an hour before flying TBH
Regardless of that - trying to claim time at the aiport as part of the travel time is dishonest in the extreme. No matter where you are travelling from, the time spent in the airport remains the same - but a bit of honesty wouldn't suit the victim mentality that's seemingly at play0 -
blackwhite wrote: »...
If a commercial argument can be made for WAT being a self-sustained business once it gets a runway extension, then I'm all for it.
Unfortunately, it seems that people don't even try to make that kind of argument, and instead focus on emotional or parish-pump style "we deserve to have an airport because Cork has one"
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Waterford deserves a modest runway upgrade to improve connectivity not because Cork has one, or some other place has one, but because every other population centre in the country has access to one - bar none. So I suggest the onus is the naysayers to explain why they've excluded one particular region and why Waterford in particular should be excluded for such connectivity.
Maybe you don't think that's a problem?0 -
...If the people of the region want an airport that requires subsidies so they don't have to drive to Dublin or go up and stay in a hotel the night before, let them campaign for a special household tax in the area to pay for it. Government can run a little referendum for everyone who puts their hands up and let them decide. There's no pressing social need, just a desire to have a crap airport, a crap hospital and a crap railway line within 15 minutes of every parish in the country; supported by anyone looking for a few preferences in a local or European election.
Will your non-Dublin tax be retrospective? If so, that would be great for the South East, all the other regions being mired in debt over it.0 -
Will your non-Dublin tax be retrospective? If so, that would be great for the South East, all the other regions being mired in debt over it.
Not to mention that the local authorities and private investors have already stumped up 60% of the funds needed.
The South East is completely neglected of investment, if only the 2 billion euro Children's Hospital received this level of scrutiny.0 -
There seems to be an assumption that if the runway is upgraded, the airlines will come. I’m not convinced. The current runway can handle ATRs and yet Aer Arann/Stobart pulled out in 2012 because the routes weren’t sustainable.0
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Waterford deserves a modest runway upgrade to improve connectivity not because Cork has one, or some other place has one, but because every other population centre in the country has access to one - bar none. So I suggest the onus is the naysayers to explain why they've excluded one particular region and why Waterford in particular should be excluded for such connectivity.
Maybe you don't think that's a problem?
Personally I'd shut off all subsidies to all of them. Unless it's an island that you can barely get in or out of, it should have commercially viable operations or no operations.0 -
Personally I'd shut off all subsidies to all of them. Unless it's an island that you can barely get in or out of, it should have commercially viable operations or no operations.
Jaysus... don't say that too loud!!!!! WAT get a ****load of grants.... and even with that new runway they will be back at the table skimming off the bulk of the grants.0 -
Personally I'd shut off all subsidies to all of them. Unless it's an island that you can barely get in or out of, it should have commercially viable operations or no operations.
Then this is nothing to do with Waterford and it's proposed runway extension. Your issue is with subsidies in general and that's a philosophical argument.
The actualité is we operate within a current framework that can be condensed into one question: do you believe Waterford and the South East should be last region in the country to be properly served by mass aviation or should it be with only region not to be served?
Arguments against the framework are not valid arguments against Waterford.0 -
Then this is nothing to do with Waterford and it's proposed runway extension. Your issue is with subsidies in general and that's a philosophical argument.
The actualité is we operate within a current framework that can be condensed into one question: do you believe Waterford and the South East should be last region in the country to be properly served by mass aviation or should it be with only region not to be served?
Arguments against the framework are not valid arguments against Waterford.
I don’t see how arguing the rest of the subsidies should be stopped is an inadmissible argument to say this subsidy shouldn’t be extended. I say this with the caveat that I’m also a big believer in more local say over local taxes and spending. The idea solution is that councils should be able to levy taxes to fund whatever pet local projects they want. Of course, nobody would vote for new taxes and it’d never get done but it’s better than having all the regions blame all their woes on dem fellas in Dublin.0 -
Ireland is 114th out of 194 countries in the world for density, 69 people per square km. The UK is 32nd and has 272 per km2. Germany 41st and 232. There's a number of countries with similar populations to ours in that high range. There is no economically viable way to ensure that there will not be relatively significant groups of people in Ireland who do not have to travel an inconvenient journey to get to a well connected airport. Someone above asked what constitutes failure in a regional airport. I'd say it's an inability to sustain itself without subsidies of any kind, except where there is a distinct social need given a lack of any alternatives. And I'm sorry to say that inconvenient journeys is not a lack of alternatives.
If the people of the region want an airport that requires subsidies so they don't have to drive to Dublin or go up and stay in a hotel the night before, let them campaign for a special household tax in the area to pay for it. Government can run a little referendum for everyone who puts their hands up and let them decide. There's no pressing social need, just a desire to have a crap airport, a crap hospital and a crap railway line within 15 minutes of every parish in the country; supported by anyone looking for a few preferences in a local or European election.
So if an airport requires say €500,000 per year state support to offset a financial deficit but supports a 1,000 jobs in its region through facilitating business and tourism, its a failed airport and should be shut down?0 -
The keyword is If, and the complete and utter denial of the fact that Waterford is not guaranteed flights is astounding. Again, again, again, and again, it has been explained that a runway doesn't equal flights, and the fact that Waterford cannot gain a service currently on turboprops (which are infact designed for thin routes unable to support jet aircraft) is very concerning.
However, it's like talking to a wall at this stage. I look forward to seeing groundhog day like scenes here for many months to come.0 -
The keyword is If, and the complete and utter denial of the fact that Waterford is not guaranteed flights is astounding. Again, again, again, and again, it has been explained that a runway doesn't equal flights, and the fact that Waterford cannot gain a service currently on turboprops (which are infact designed for thin routes unable to support jet aircraft) is very concerning.
However, it's like talking to a wall at this stage. I look forward to seeing groundhog day like scenes here for many months to come.
You're coming steaming in with the studs showing trying to answer a question that wasn't asked. Seriously, your obsession with the future of a little airport nowhere near your parish is borderline psychotic. I really fear for your health if the gov announce funding approval in the next few weeks! ðŸ˜႒
Anyway, I was debating Airports in general and what constitutes a failed/viable airport. Cork for example claims if supports 10,000 jobs in the South West but is propped up by Dublin or to give it it's official title the DAA. I would argue all day long that even though it can't stand on its own two feet that the economic activity it generates (business & tourism) justifies it's countined existence.0 -
Have any airlines expressed an interest in operating services? Really only Aer Lingus and Ryanair into Ireland in the budget/short haul market0
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The keyword is If, and the complete and utter denial of the fact that Waterford is not guaranteed flights is astounding. Again, again, again, and again, it has been explained that a runway doesn't equal flights, and the fact that Waterford cannot gain a service currently on turboprops (which are infact designed for thin routes unable to support jet aircraft) is very concerning.
However, it's like talking to a wall at this stage. I look forward to seeing groundhog day like scenes here for many months to come.
So, how do you explain the fact that Knock, with a similar catchment area to Waterford has over a period of time managed to achieve a significant number of routes and flights?
Is it perhaps that the runway at Knock IS capable of supporting larger aircraft than the runway at Galway was capable of supporting, and that there is a certain size below which the operation is not viable?
In theory, Galway should have been much more successful than Knock, but the limitations of the runway, combined with bad management, meant that Galway was unable to sustain the services that were operating from there. In runway terms, Waterford is very similar to Galway, and while ATR's can get in there, the larger ATR's and jets cannot do so without significant load or performance limitations, and there are very real cost issues with only being able to operate small turboprops from a location.
I know, a long time ago now, I was very closely involved with a potential start up airline at Galway (pre Aer Arann) that was going to operate from Sligo, Galway and Waterford using ATR42's to UK and other destinations, and at the time, it would have been viable, as was later proved by Aer Arann.
And yes, I am also well aware that for some time, there were massive state subsidies to most of the regional airports, but those times have changed, and those big subsidies are no longer available, which is why there are fewer regional flights from a number of places, and no flights now from Sligo.
It would take time, and support, but over time, and with the right length of runway, there is no reason why Waterford could not achieve a similar level of service to Knock, but it won't happen without the runway extension.Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁
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I’d say Waterford airports catchment population would be higher than knocks no? Problem is that it overlaps into Dublin and corks very quickly. I can’t see the influencers in cork being too happy with the prospect ?0
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I’d say Waterford airports catchment population would be higher than knocks no? Problem is that it overlaps into Dublin and corks very quickly. I can’t see the influencers in cork being too happy with the prospect ?
It does overlap to a certain extent so Waterford would have to push it's advantages over Dublin. Ease of transit being the main one. This is important for families & the elderly. This was one of drawbacks of the previous turboprop services. Families rarely used it as it was price prohibitive. A person would fork out the higher rate for themselves but not the whole family.
So if they can get the easy transit message right long with the lower fares a low cost carrier brings then I can see people who are closer to Dublin choosing Waterford thus filling the larger aircraft and making the service viable.0 -
Donegal, Knock and Kerry are all the beneficiaries of €7.6 million in state subsidies. Donegal and Kerry also have PSO routes locked in. These routes effectively subsidise other operations by ensuring there's flights in - There are commercial flights that wouldn't be tenable if the PSO routes weren't coming in. I'm not sure if Knock currently has a PSO route but it has had in the past.
In all these airports and others receive millions of euro in benefits from grants, subsidies and PSO routes that are required to make them viable. Fundamentally again it comes to Ireland being in the lower half of the population density rankings worldwide without really being a geographically vast land with poor alternate transport links (ie, it's not Russia or Australia - The country is the 118th largest in the world for overall area). We do not need to support a half dozen regional airports as there is not a pressing lack of accessible alternatives, there is just a lack of highly convenient alternatives given the population density.0 -
It does overlap to a certain extent so Waterford would have to push it's advantages over Dublin. Ease of transit being the main one. This is important for families & the elderly. This was one of drawbacks of the previous turboprop services. Families rarely used it as it was price prohibitive. A person would fork out the higher rate for themselves but not the whole family.
So if they can get the easy transit message right long with the lower fares a low cost carrier brings then I can see people who are closer to Dublin choosing Waterford thus filling the larger aircraft and making the service viable.
Absolutely and I would. The never ending Naas M7 works would certainly make you think of an easier alternative. I reckon with a few attractive routes it would work (like Knock). 90 mins from WAT to Dublin brings in a large rapidly growing population0 -
Donegal, Knock and Kerry are all the beneficiaries of €7.6 million in state subsidies. Donegal and Kerry also have PSO routes locked in. These routes effectively subsidise other operations by ensuring there's flights in - There are commercial flights that wouldn't be tenable if the PSO routes weren't coming in. I'm not sure if Knock currently has a PSO route but it has had in the past.
In all these airports and others receive millions of euro in benefits from grants, subsidies and PSO routes that are required to make them viable. Fundamentally again it comes to Ireland being in the lower half of the population density rankings worldwide without really being a geographically vast land with poor alternate transport links (ie, it's not Russia or Australia - The country is the 118th largest in the world for overall area). We do not need to support a half dozen regional airports as there is not a pressing lack of accessible alternatives, there is just a lack of highly convenient alternatives given the population density.
Define viable?
What are you suggesting...remove all state support from regional airports and just have Dublin as the only entry/exit point for the country?0 -
Define viable?
What are you suggesting...remove all state support from regional airports and just have Dublin as the only entry/exit point for the country?
As I've been consistently saying all through this thread, Ireland is in the bottom half of countries for population density whilst also being in the bottom half for overall size. There is no actual pressing societal need to maintain a large amount of regional airports. There is a desire to have them for convenience, but this is in my opinion a waste of money overall. We are spending significant amount of all taxpayers money so a very few people can fly on heavily subsidized seats on otherwise nonviable routes into nonviable airports.
Any airport that can support itself commercially with routes, and there's more than Dublin there, I have no issue with. But realistically there is no practical desirable reason to maintain a load of regional nonviable airports, there are only populist political reasons to do so.0 -
As I've been consistently saying all through this thread, Ireland is in the bottom half of countries for population density whilst also being in the bottom half for overall size. There is no actual pressing societal need to maintain a large amount of regional airports. There is a desire to have them for convenience, but this is in my opinion a waste of money overall. We are spending significant amount of all taxpayers money so a very few people can fly on heavily subsidized seats on otherwise nonviable routes into nonviable airports.
Any airport that can support itself commercially with routes, and there's more than Dublin there, I have no issue with. But realistically there is no practical desirable reason to maintain a load of regional nonviable airports, there are only populist political reasons to do so.
Dublin and what other?0 -
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Whatever can sustain flights without public subsidies.
That's a politicians answer.
This is what you said
"Any airport that can support itself commercially with routes, and there's more than Dublin there, I have no issue with."
I'm asking you to name the airports other than Dublin that can support themselves commercially?0 -
I would guess Dublin and Shannon. It’s difficult to say what happens to the others when you remove collectively €7m in subsidies, but fundamentally that is because people who live nearby don’t fly enough to support the cost of operation by themselves. Knock might have some Ryanair services but it still has a load of government subsidies that likely pay for part of each ticket. So for example if you pay to extend the runway at Waterford the history seems to indicate you’ll still need to pour in money year in, year out.That's a politicians answer.
This is what you said
"Any airport that can support itself commercially with routes, and there's more than Dublin there, I have no issue with."
I'm asking you to name the airports other than Dublin that can support themselves commercially?0 -
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I would guess Dublin and Shannon. It’s difficult to say what happens to the others when you remove collectively €7m in subsidies, but fundamentally that is because people who live nearby don’t fly enough to support the cost of operation by themselves. Knock might have some Ryanair services but it still has a load of government subsidies that likely pay for part of each ticket. So for example if you pay to extend the runway at Waterford the history seems to indicate you’ll still need to pour in money year in, year out.
You guess? So you haven't a clue really what airports are able to pay their way!
Shannon was made part of the Shannon group because it can't stand on it own two feet. Cork is thrown in with Dublin because it can't pay its debts so by your logic all airports bar Dublin should be left go. So lets have just one entry point to our island nation and let's have it located at the overheating Capital city!
Now why stop at airports? Lets stop building and maintaining all roads and bridges that aren't tolled as they are costing us money without returing a cent to the exchequer. It doesnt matter that they are transport infrastructure supporting business & tourism in their regions just like regional airports, they're just not paying their way!0
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