General Premier League Thread 2018-19 Part 2

TitianGerm

the whole year inn wrote: »

What about getting top 4 or you writhing them off allready and not even kicked a ball?

Ole looks out of his depth at the minute and has shown nothing to say he can turn it around.

He's likely to see Pogba, Valencia and Herrera move on. De Gea might go as well seeing as there seems to be no movement on a new contract (only one year left on his contract now I think?). Then he has an injury prone Bailey and Jones, a rapidly declining Matic a misfiring Fred and Lukaka and a moody Martial.

This is probably the biggest transfer window post Fergie now (I know that's been said before). Will the club trust Ole with £250m+ in the summer? They didn't trust Jose and he's a vastly better manager.

I think Ole will be gone before Christmas.

jpboard1

TitianGerm wrote: »

Ole looks out of his depth at the minute and has shown nothing to say he can turn it around.

He's likely to see Pogba, Valencia and Herrera move on. De Gea might go as well seeing as there seems to be no movement on a new contract (only one year left on his contract now I think?). Then he has an injury prone Bailey and Jones, a rapidly declining Matic a misfiring Fred and Lukaka and a moody Martial.

This is probably the biggest transfer window post Fergie now (I know that's been said before). Will the club trust Ole with £250m+ in the summer? They didn't trust Jose and he's a vastly better manager.

I think Ole will be gone before Christmas.

Anybody would be out of their depth at United. They are a shambles. Anyone who thinks a manager can come in a turn it around in a year or two is completed deluded.

bucketybuck

jpboard1 wrote: »

Anybody would be out of their depth at United. They are a shambles. Anyone who thinks a manager can come in a turn it around in a year or two is completed deluded.

I don't think anybody really believes that any manager can turn it around in one year, everybody knows it is going to take time.

Which means that the club needs to be damn sure that the person getting the job is right one. The manager tasked with this rebuild needs to get 3/4 years and hundreds of millions of pounds, so the club can't afford to be sitting here in a years time looking at another lame duck, dead in the water appointment like Moyes.

I've argued for Ole, but I can totally understand why people have concerns about him right now.

yourdeadwright

jpboard1 wrote: »

Anybody would be out of their depth at United. They are a shambles. Anyone who thinks a manager can come in a turn it around in a year or two is completed deluded.

That is true United need there biggest rebuild since the 80's but why would you trust the Ex Cardiff and Molde manger to do it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What could possibly go wrong.

Iused2likebusts

gimli2112 wrote: »

The problem with the EL is playing on a Thursday particularly in the far flung reaches of Russia. It's a horrible competition until you get to the later stages. It has been made very relevant however with the CL spot.

I think its not much of an issue anymore for any of the top 6 teams. They can sail through the group stages by giving squad players much needed game time. After xmas then depending on how the PL is going they can decide whether to target it or not. The EL is a problem for the non top 6 teams as they dont have squads strong enough to get through the group stages which in turn massively impacts their PL form.

Guy:Incognito

gimli2112 wrote: »

The problem with the EL is playing on a Thursday particularly in the far flung reaches of Russia. It's a horrible competition until you get to the later stages. It has been made very relevant however with the CL spot.

Meh. The arse end of Russia thing is always brought up.

We are in an age where teams fly to Dubai or further a couple of time a season for breaks. Players head to New York for a day for an awards ceremony. Going to play in Russia isnt a cramped trip on a little struggling prop plane followed by hours wedged on a coach or train.

It's not hardship.

gimli2112

It's simply not ideal. While I'd agree it shouldn't be an issue, results after EL fixtures would suggest otherwise. Some team from the far side of Russia qualified a few years back which is the only time I thought that would have been an issue, still wouldn't fancy it.

Frankie Cortese

Raheem Sterling named Football Writers player of the year.

Guy:Incognito

Similar stats are often brought in to show poor results after cl games.

The reality is that spurs have to play their games at some stage

jpboard1

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't think anybody really believes that any manager can turn it around in one year, everybody knows it is going to take time.

Which means that the club needs to be damn sure that the person getting the job is right one. The manager tasked with this rebuild needs to get 3/4 years and hundreds of millions of pounds, so the club can't afford to be sitting here in a years time looking at another lame duck, dead in the water appointment like Moyes.

I've argued for Ole, but I can totally understand why people have concerns about him right now.

3 to 4 years? People don’t seem to have any idea of the hole United are in.

TitianGerm

Frankie Cortese wrote: »

Raheem Sterling named Football Writers player of the year.

It was likely after such a good season and all the abuse he got in the papers during the summer and early in the season.

Shanotheslayer

Frankie Cortese wrote: »

Raheem Sterling named Football Writers player of the year.

Wonder who the Daily Mail voted for.

The Talking Bread

gimli2112 wrote: »

It's simply not ideal. While I'd agree it shouldn't be an issue, results after EL fixtures would suggest otherwise. Some team from the far side of Russia qualified a few years back which is the only time I thought that would have been an issue, still wouldn't fancy it.

Arsenal put in arguably their best away performance of the season after a trip to Azerbaijan and arguably their best home win after a trip to Belarus. There are always going to be more lethargic performances by any team playing 3 games in a week when in Europe but the cliche about the "trips to eastern Europe" is exaggerated a lot.

The Talking Bread

jpboard1 wrote: »

3 to 4 years? People don’t seem to have any idea of the hole United are in.

Just you? 4 years is a long time. Liverpool were 6th 4 years ago, 8th 3 years ago and just about snuck into the CL the two last seasons, 25 points behind City last season, 17 points behind Chelsea the season before, 21 points behind Leicester the season befo9re. and now are arguably grown incrementally into one of the top team in Europe.

It is extremely possible to get their sh*t together within such a timeframe with those resources . If it wasn't, this wouldn't be a debate.

jpboard1

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Just you? 4 years is a long time. Liverpool were 6th 4 years ago, 8th 3 years ago and just about snuck into the CL the two last seasons, 25 points behind City last season. and now are arguably grown incrementally into one of the top team in Europe.

It is extremely possible to get their sh*t together within such a timeframe with those resources . If it wasn't, this wouldn't be a debate.

Completely deluded

The Talking Bread

jpboard1 wrote: »

Completely deluded

A fine and irrefutable response.

Smart.



.

LuckyLloyd

The Talking Bread wrote: »

A fine and irrefutable response.

Smart.



.

The moves Liverpool made to get where they are now started in 2012. There was a false dawn, lots of mistakes and then further significant changes in 2015. Since Klopp took over, there has been constant progress (denigrated and dismissed by opposition fans at every turn) but it still took five transfer windows to really build the team he wanted.

As such, your contention that you can sort things out in a couple of years is probably wrong. Utd’s commercial base and arguably some of the assets in the current squad may short circuit the process in comparison to Liverpool. But fundamentally it looks to me that Utd at present have the wrong manager; wrong player acquisition process; wrong general manager. There are some fundamental changes that need to be made before the proper process can begin.

And when you get the right people in place, you’re still looking at maybe 2 - 3 years to establish yourself as a challenger for the two big prizes. And then actually winning one can come down to very fine margins in a couple of games. It’s a long road, don’t underestimate it.

DARK-KNIGHT

Ah the lemons in here is hilarious

Scaldy bitter lemons 🤣

gimli2112

City have fundamentally shifted the goalposts in the last two seasons. It took them several years to get where they are but now they are there it's difficult to see where it ends. Only marginally down on last year and missing arguably their best player for most of the year. It's frightening stuff.

The Talking Bread

I never contended a couple of years, I said the likes of 4 years, close to half a decade is perfectly reasonable target date to be bacjk challenging at the top level for a club with that resources if a lot of things change.

The Talking Bread

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Ah the lemons in here is hilarious

Scaldy bitter lemons 🤣

Perfectly reasonable conversation. Dropping in to troll doesn't make you original or humorous?

jpboard1

The Talking Bread wrote: »

A fine and irrefutable response.

Smart.



.

1. It took Liverpool 29 years to turn it around (and they still haven’t one the league)
2. You have a joke of a manager who hasn’t the capability of turning it around.
3. You have a board who now must back their manager as they already have a bad name in those circles.
4. You have a bunch of incapable players who you can’t get rid of because of the nuts wage structure.
5. Chances are you won’t have champions league football so can’t attract the players you need.
6. You no longer have the spending power over other clubs that you had.
7. Even if all other clubs stood still you still couldn’t catch them in the next 10 years. And they are not. They are improving.
8. You have Real Madrid, Bayern, Chelsea and Barca all doing a re-building job at the moment...and all vastly more attractive clubs.

I could go on. United fans are completely deluded.

Guy:Incognito

jpboard1 wrote: »

1. It took Liverpool 29 years to turn it around (and they still haven’t one the league)
.

This season isnt the culmination of a 29 year plan. It's a far shorter evolution than that from wholesale changes at the club.

LuckyLloyd

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I never contended a couple of years, I said the likes of 4 years, close to half a decade is perfectly reasonable target date to be bacjk challenging at the top level for a club with that resources if a lot of things change.

Okay, I agree with that

jpboard1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This season isnt the culmination of a 29 year plan. It's a far shorter evolution than that from wholesale changes at the club.

You have to get the right board and management team before any plan can be put in place. That takes years.

ERG89

gimli2112 wrote:

City have fundamentally shifted the goalposts in the last two seasons. It took them several years to get where they are but now they are there it's difficult to see where it ends. Only marginally down on last year and missing arguably their best player for most of the year. It's frightening stuff.

If City weren't playing at their level I don't think Liverpool would have been pushed to their points total.
Man City will have to fall back for others to catch them consistently. Hard to know can Liverpool ever get to 97 again but I will say none of the teams below them will improve dramatically anytime soon as Spurs don't have the cash whereas United, Arsenal and Chelsea have so little quality in place right now for their needed rebuilds.
When Liverpool spent on a Mane or Salah what they spent on likes of Mustafi, Drinkwater and Matic. It reflects how sh!t their transfers have been. Liverpool are also great at getting inflated fees for who they sell too.

Guy:Incognito

jpboard1 wrote: »

You have to get the right board and management team before any plan can be put in place. That takes years.

And the current board, owners, management team and more at liverpool have not been on place for 29 years.

You can take the current situation as being the evolution since the current owners arrived. The club was going backwards under the previous ownership.

sideswipe

Now is the perfect time for united to start a rebuilding process- In a few years when it starts to bare fruit the City project will likely be either in decline or in transition. Pep doesn't hang around for long and when City do eventually win/buy the CL the owners will be less motivated.

The Talking Bread

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

And the current board, owners, management team and more at liverpool have not been on place for 29 years.

I wouldn't bother, the poster is shifting the posts and contradicting himself immensely to exaggerate his point. When he drew up that list and I looked at a few of the points, I personally lost interest.

LuckyLloyd

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Ah the lemons in here is hilarious

Scaldy bitter lemons 🤣

I have no idea what this is even in reference to tbh.

jpboard1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

And the current board, owners, management team and more at liverpool have not been on place for 29 years.

You can take the current situation as being the evolution since the current owners arrived. The club was going backwards under the previous ownership.

Exactly. Getting the correct hierarchy and structure in place takes years. That’s ever before having an effective plan for on the field.

jpboard1

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I wouldn't bother, the poster is shifting the posts and contradicting himself immensely to exaggerate his point. When he drew up that list and I looked at a few of the points, I personally lost interest.

Because they are all true. Or show me where they are not?

Berserker

ERG89 wrote: »

If City weren't playing at their level I don't think Liverpool would have been pushed to their points total. Man City will have to fall back for others to catch them consistently. Hard to know can Liverpool ever get to 97 again but I will say none of the teams below them will improve dramatically anytime soon as Spurs don't have the cash whereas United, Arsenal and Chelsea have so little quality in place right now for their needed rebuilds.

I fully expect City to get a similar number of points, if not more, next season. Wouldn't surprise me if they got back to 100 points +. Liverpool can get 90 points + but they'll need to buy in some top class squad players. Are they willing to pay that kind of money for squad players? It's hard to see Liverpool going through another season without having to deal with injuries to or a lack of form from their key players (Salah, Mane, Fir, VVD & Alisson).

United, Chelsea and Arsenal will be in re-build mode, so I'm expecting more of the same from them but I'd be very interested to see what a CL win would do for Spurs, as a club.

GavRedKing

Chelsea certainly wont make up some 20 points next year to be in a position to challenge for the league and thats the level City have set the bar.

Unless you're going to be winning 30+ games a season, you're not going to get near them.

Nobody from 3rd-6th is good enough to sustain that level of consistency either.

yourdeadwright

GavRedKing wrote: »

Chelsea certainly wont make up some 20 points next year to be in a position to challenge for the league and thats the level City have set the bar.

Unless you're going to be winning 30+ games a season, you're not going to get near them.

Nobody from 3rd-6th is good enough to sustain that level of consistency either.

Your more than likely correct but who would have said Liverpool could make a 22 point improvement ( that's if the win there last 2 )

dzer2

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your more than likely correct but who would have said Liverpool could make a 22 point improvement ( that's if the win there last 2 )

Until they signed Allison no-one would have said that.

MIgs and Karius cost them at least 10-15 points the yr before. So really they have only improved by 10 points. And last time they beat City this time they only got a draw.

gimli2112

aye not conceding 50% of the time there's a shot on target has really improved Liverpool's points tally. Goalie is a difficult position to fill but Mingolet/Karius were never the answer. I would have defended both but Mingolet consistently messed up and Karius well..... he got away with it for a time.

yourdeadwright

dzer2 wrote: »

Until they signed Allison no-one would have said that.

MIgs and Karius cost them at least 10-15 points the yr before. So really they have only improved by 10 points. And last time they beat City this time they only got a draw.

Both keepers are part of the teams so they have improved by 16 points and possible 22 by the end, Its like saying United would be 3rd if De Gea didn't play he does and there not ,

Also I know Karius is brutal but I can't recall him ever costing Liverpool a Premier league game but he came close way to often ,

Oranage2

Liverpool got lucky this year with their attackers hitting form and the right times, they'll finish second next season 10 points off city but still finish about 10 points ahead 3rd. Same with arsenal, that 17 game run with the strikers hitting unbelievable form is a bit misleading to arsenals actual quality

yourdeadwright

Oranage2 wrote: »

Liverpool got lucky this year with their attackers hitting form and the right times, they'll finish second next season 10 points off city but still finish about 10 points ahead 3rd. Same with arsenal, that 17 game run with the strikers hitting unbelievable form is a bit misleading to arsenals actual quality

They scored more between them last season ? as a team sit level on goals with last season's total,

There improvement is down to the defence and midfield, and its not luck unless you call buying players where your problems are luck ?

dzer2

dzer2 wrote: »

Until they signed Allison no-one would have said that.

MIgs and Karius cost them at least 10-15 points the yr before. So really they have only improved by 10 points. And last time they beat City this time they only got a draw.

Just wondering why ignore the points given away by Mig and Karius? What about points lost that came from mistakes from other players?

yourdeadwright

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Just wondering why ignore the points given away by Mig and Karius? What about points lost that came from mistakes from other players?

exactly are we going to count misses, peno's given away ?
Also I think i'm correct in saying Karius didn't cost any Prem points

noodler

Oranage2 wrote: »

Liverpool got lucky this year with their attackers hitting form and the right times, they'll finish second next season 10 points off city but still finish about 10 points ahead 3rd. Same with arsenal, that 17 game run with the strikers hitting unbelievable form is a bit misleading to arsenals actual quality

Wut?

gimli2112

yourdeadwright wrote: »

exactly are we going to count misses, peno's given away ?
Also I think i'm correct in saying Karius didn't cost any Prem points

I don't remember any either but the internet is a great thing.
After two sub-par performances in early December, which included spilling Lewis Cook’s tame shot into the path of Nathan AkI] to tap home into an empty net to give Bournemouth a 4–3 win, Karius was dropped from the starting eleven.

It's really the back end of the CL campaign when his mistakes were becoming an issue although hadn't cost us up to the final as they were scoring heavily at the other end.

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

I don't remember any either but the internet is a great thing.
After two sub-par performances in early December, which included spilling Lewis Cook’s tame shot into the path of Nathan AkI] to tap home into an empty net to give Bournemouth a 4–3 win, Karius was dropped from the starting eleven.

It's really the back end of the CL campaign when his mistakes were becoming an issue although hadn't cost us up to the final as they were scoring heavily at the other end.

That was the season before last

gimli2112

yes I didn't look into it too deeply. Off the top of my head I can't remember but the odd mistake isn't generally important when you've scored 3 goals yourself.

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

yes I didn't look into it too deeply. Off the top of my head I can't remember but the odd mistake isn't generally important when you've scored 3 goals yourself.

We all know that ........................but the poster said we where only 10/15 points better off because we got rid of him but he never cost us points to begin with ,

dzer2

yourdeadwright wrote: »

We all know that ........................but the poster said we where only 10/15 points better off because we got rid of him but he never cost us points to begin with ,

Mig cost us points against Arsenal, If karius was even 10% better he would have pushed Mig out. What I am saying the upgrade to Allison is so great he covers up others mistakes which is part of a goalie role as he is the last man as such. Also he gives a lot more confidence to the defence that allows the likes or Robertson and Trent to roam forward. With out him Liverpool would be in much the same position as last yr.

jpboard1

yourdeadwright wrote: »

exactly are we going to count misses, peno's given away ?
Also I think i'm correct in saying Karius didn't cost any Prem points

Of course he cost us points. There doesn’t have to be particular instances. Just his general playing and the lack of confidence the team had in him undermined them defensively

Iused2likebusts

yourdeadwright wrote: »

exactly are we going to count misses, peno's given away ?
Also I think i'm correct in saying Karius didn't cost any Prem points

Its not just obvious mistakes that lead to goals thats the problem. Its him not making saves that the better keepers in the league would make.Its also the defence being less assured and making rash decisions as they dont trust the keeper. I would have been on non stop in the liverpool thread about the need for a better keeper and the difference it would make. Utd were fairly average last year but had the best keeper in the world. This year they are still fairly average but the keeper isnt bailing them out for the first time in a long time. Thats what is causing the difference in their pts total. The importance of a good keeper is huge.