Do you know any transgender people?

sbsquarepants

seamus wrote: »

If someone came up to you on holiday and called you English, you'd politely say, "No actually, I'm Irish". And everyone would move on.

.

I wouldn't set out to deliberately offend someone in this fashion just to be a prick, but if I did accidentally do so, I would like to imagine the majority of people would handle it exactly in this manner, and life would just move on.


And as for the ones who wouldn't....well, fúck them. I've got better things to stress over!

yourdeadwright

Iv no issues with anyone who is transgender but if you where in a relationship and they never told you about there change that is wrong on all levels,

They may want to be the opposite gender, have all the operation possibly but they will always be whatever they where born male or female, You can not change biology

If some does not tell you because they think they are now the gender of the transition , man or women they are mentally ill ,

It may sound very un PC but they are essentially just playing dress up

You simply can not change biology ,

Again iv no issue be whoever you want its your life but don't deceive someone else,

SusieBlue

Have an acquaintance who is genderfluid, sometimes leaning more towards a man and sometimes more towards a woman. He was born male and mostly identifies as same.
He has two social media accounts, one for his male persona and one for his female. Very well liked and respected person with a big group of friends, supportive family, and employers who are accepting of the fact that some days he comes in presenting as female and some days as male.

.......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I never said I would refuse to be friends with a trans person? It’s not like I go out of my way to make friends with trans people either as we generally don’t have a whole pile in common, another reason why I wouldn’t consider dating or having a relationship with someone who is transgender, but awful? Hardly, I just don’t imagine we’d have a whole lot in common is all.

You said you wouldnt be friends with someone who was trying to convince you they were something they werent and in an earlier post said that trans people were attempting to pass for something they werent.

So the logical conclusion is - you wouldnt be friends with a trans person.

Why on earth would you not have things in common with a trans person? They are just people, like non trans people, with a variety of interests. Do you think they only have a narrow set of interests or something?

One eyed Jack

....... wrote: »

You said you wouldnt be friends with someone who was trying to convince you they were something they werent and in an earlier post said that trans people were attempting to pass for something they werent.

So the logical conclusion is - you wouldnt be friends with a trans person.

Why on earth would you not have things in common with a trans person? They are just people, like non trans people, with a variety of interests. Do you think they only have a narrow set of interests or something?

No, the logical conclusion is that I wouldn’t want to be friends with anyone who continued to try and convince me they’re someone they aren’t. Whether they’re trans or not the same underlying principle applies.

From knowing people who are trans, we generally don’t have a lot in common, that’s all. That’s why I said I don’t imagine we would have a lot in common, because my experiences with people who are trans, suggests that we wouldn’t have a whole pile in common. That’s all it is, same as I wouldn’t be going out of my way to be friends with anyone whom I don’t imagine we had a lot in common with each other, let alone anything that could form the foundation of a relationship. I don’t see any point in trying to convince ourselves otherwise.

TCM

yourdeadwright wrote:

Iv no issues with anyone who is transgender but if you where in a relationship and they never told you about there change that is wrong on all levels,

I could in fact possibly be a criminal act.

.......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

From knowing people who are trans, we generally don’t have a lot in common, that’s all.

How many trans people do you know? And in what capacity?

yourdeadwright

TCM wrote: »

I could in fact possibly be a criminal act.

it should be

yourdeadwright

....... wrote: »

How many trans people do you know? And in what capacity?

So let me get this right ,

Your trying to tell someone how they should feel and think about Trans people

But you want Trans people to have the freedom to be the people the feel they are instead of who people think they are

Have you ever heard the word hypocrite ?

If someone doesn't want to be friends with a trans person that as much there choice as it for the trans person to be trans person ,

limnam

I sat on one's lap in a cabaret bar in lanzo once.


Hopefully she remembers me.

.......

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your trying to tell someone how they should feel and think about Trans people

Do show me exactly where I did this?

Oh wait, you just made it up. Carry on.

Calhoun

No i don't that i am aware of, used to work in the same office as a person transitioning.

I would like to think that they were treated no differently as my workplace is very inclusive but i am sure it wasn't easy on them.

noubliezjamais

yourdeadwright wrote: »

it should be

It is in the UK

mcmoustache

I've met one, maybe two.

One was a quiet chap who lived with a Russian Estonian couple that I knew. Before coming out, he was a quiet lad from the country and you could tell that something was off. Since then he seems a lot better adjusted as a woman.

This next one is a maybe because I haven't heard from him in a while. There was a close friend of mine back in my twenties with whom I'd take lots of drugs and booze. This chap was a bit of a Lemmy Kilmister type of guy who lived hard and was somewhat sexually ambiguous although mostly straight. As the years went on, I saw him less and less as he sometimes went off to live in London and sometimes here being a bit transient. He didn't have a flat and mostly either couch-surfed or stayed in hostels. He was hard to keep in touch with because he often changed phone numbers and lost his contact details. I saw him last around 4 or 5 years ago.

A few months back, an old friend of mine who hangs around in squatter/punk/alternative circles told me that he me that the other old friend is a woman now. I haven't seen it for myself nor have I any way to contact him but both of these friends' social circles and scenes would have a few areas where they would overlap so I believe him. It's not terribly shocking given what he got up to when I knew him but I'd be curious to know how he's doing. I've no idea how I'd react if I met him. I'll add that I'm using the male pronoun because I don't know if he transitioned like the other guy or just dresses in drag at the weekend.

HappyAsLarE

I think it’s a load of nonsense this transgender stuff.

I am aware that I’m not meant to think like that.

Widdershins

4 transsexuals-with principles - and the pervert who pretended to be a lesbian woman to get me to bed. Still thinks I don't know . No matter how much butchery you have done to yourself you'll always be what you are.

Moderator?
Go for it.

cgcsb

noubliezjamais wrote: »

I'm not transphobic as I actually am bisexual and want to get castration (as birth control and have received ostracism from people for that).

Are you joking?

I have an annoying moth in my house I might get the rocket launcher at it later.

One eyed Jack

....... wrote: »

How many trans people do you know? And in what capacity?

I couldn’t put an exact figure on it for you, like I said earlier in the thread - I’ve only ever known a handful, and of that handful I’d say there were only a few I’d have actually considered friends, and of those few I considered friends, we just didn’t have anything in common that would sustain a friendship, so it didn’t.

Then there’s my next door neighbour who can be a pain in the tits at times (such as when she hangs her bras out on the balcony, contrary to the apartment complex rules that prohibit residents from hanging their laundry out on their balcony), but generally we get on fine. She has never shown any interest in being anything other than neighbours, which suits us both.

jimgoose

limnam wrote: »

I sat on one's lap in a cabaret bar in lanzo once.


Hopefully she remembers me.

Was it Betty Boop's on Calle Nicaragua in Puerto del Carmen, by any chance? Nah, she won't remember...

sbsquarepants

Widdershins wrote: »

and the pervert who pretended to be a lesbian woman to get me to bed. .

:D

Couldn't just pretend to be a footballer like the rest of us no?

limnam

jimgoose wrote: »

Was it Betty Boop's on Calle Nicaragua in Puerto del Carmen, by any chance? Nah, she won't remember...

Sounds about right.


But she kissed me or maybe I kissed her.


I'm just another notch on her girdle then?


Typical

RWCNT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So let me get this right ,

Your trying to tell someone how they should feel and think about Trans people

But you want Trans people to have the freedom to be the people the feel they are instead of who people think they are

Have you ever heard the word hypocrite ?

If someone doesn't want to be friends with a trans person that as much there choice as it for the trans person to be trans person ,

Being trans isn't a choice though. If it was, why would anyone choose it?

If you choose that you only want to be friends with people of the same race as you then you're free to do so and nobody can stop you, but you're obviously being prejudiced.

Berserker

pc7 wrote: »

I don't know any transgender people (yet) but have a really good friend who likes to wear womens clothes (but doesn't want to be a woman).

Interesting point. Did you know that such men are strongly disliked by gay men? One of my mates, does the dressing thing and he was telling us that recently.

Wibbs wrote: »

That's pretty rare to be fair. And that's just on day to day meeting. If things go beyond that into the romantic things would become pretty evident.

Yeah, that's when the wheels come off for her.

Ush1 wrote: »

Is that not gender? My understanding is that you can't change biological sex.

You may be right thinking about that but I'm not sure. I was responding to the point that she was attempting to pass herself off as the opposite sex, which is clearly not the case. Massive difference between a guy who dresses as a female from time to time and someone who transitions.


Well, she was born male and has transitioned. All her personal documentation, birth cert etc, states that she is female.

yourdeadwright

RWCNT wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So let me get this right ,

Your trying to tell someone how they should feel and think about Trans people

But you want Trans people to have the freedom to be the people the feel they are instead of who people think they are

Have you ever heard the word hypocrite ?

If someone doesn't want to be friends with a trans person that as much there choice as it for the trans person to be trans person ,

Being trans isn't a choice though. If it was, why would anyone choose it?

Ur born a man or a women in that you have no choice ( ok odd cases some are bioloigly both) , if u decide your something else that is your choice to be something else ,

manonboard

Yeah, one of my closest friends changed to male about 1.5 years ago. Still on going of course.

They were very well received by everyone, couple of awkward conversations.

Nobody made a big deal about it, and sometimes the occasional language blundered was laughed away. They stopped using alot of drugs at the same time so they are much happier now. Moved out of a problematic home and in a very nice relationship with a lady who has been cool to them.

Couple of issues arose when they tried to use some businesses that refused them services. It upset them greatly and was very embarrassing, they sued them and won. Their policies changed after.

Guy just likes to go on with his life and wants to be treated just like the rest of us. Which in our groups is fairly easy cause we all have our own stuff to focus on so no energy for silly stuff. Easy enough to change pronouns, and just invite him to the lads stuff and exclude him from the chick stuff easily.
He takes the exclusion from girl stuff as a badge of honor, and a validation of his acceptance! Ironically!

Good chap. Was always a bit weird having him as a girl before. Loved him to bits, but he was always so guyish in behavior and was drawn to pornography/fantasies/sexual behavior far more in keeping with his now guy identity.

One eyed Jack

RWCNT wrote: »

If you choose that you only want to be friends with people of the same race as you then you're free to do so and nobody can stop you, but you're obviously being prejudiced.

Of course a person is prejudiced, and people are prejudiced in many ways against plenty of traits or characteristics in other people. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being prejudiced against people or gravitating towards other people on the basis of prejudice.

What can be wrong though is when those prejudices would cause a person to treat another person with malicious intent, but that’s an observation of that person’s behaviour, not the prejudice itself.

RWCNT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ur born a man or a women in that you have no choice ( ok odd cases some are bioloigly both) , if u decide your something else that is your choice to be something else ,

Do you know what gender dysphoria is?

"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity" - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Do people choose to experience gender dysphoria then? Of course not. Why would anyone do that?

DellyBelly

We had someone in work interviewed as a man but when turned up to start after handing in notice in his old job cane in as a woman. It was very wierd but he turned out to be decent person and a hood worker. He stayed for over 2 years before he moved on. Good luck to him. Can't have been easy

yourdeadwright

RWCNT wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ur born a man or a women in that you have no choice ( ok odd cases some are bioloigly both) , if u decide your something else that is your choice to be something else ,

Do you know what gender dysphoria is?

"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity" - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Do people choose to experience gender dysphoria then? Of course not. Why would anyone do that?

RWCNT wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ur born a man or a women in that you have no choice ( ok odd cases some are bioloigly both) , if u decide your something else that is your choice to be something else ,

Do you know what gender dysphoria is?

"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity" - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Do people choose to experience gender dysphoria then? Of course not. Why would anyone do that?

Basically a mental issue but as we all have to be PC now people will say this not an mental issue , im not laughing or sneering at them in any way , it must be very hard ,

Again iv no issue with anyone who wants to be Transgender or anyone being who ever they want to be as long as it doesnt hurt anybody

RWCNT

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Of course a person is prejudiced, and people are prejudiced in many ways against plenty of traits or characteristics in other people. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being prejudiced against people or gravitating towards other people on the basis of prejudice.

What can be wrong though is when those prejudices would cause a person to treat another person with malicious intent, but that’s an observation of that person’s behaviour, not the prejudice itself.

I actually agree, there isn't anything inherently wrong with being prejudiced or any kind of ist or phobe or what have you Thoughts are thoughts, provided they don't result in malicious actions. Airing out those thoughts can of course be seen as a malicious action though - my hypothetical racist would be acting like a dickhead if he chose to go around telling black people he could never be friends with them because of their race, and they're fair enough to think him a dick for it.

Berserker

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Again iv no issue with anyone who wants to be Transgender or anyone being who ever they want to be as long as it doesnt hurt anybody

You can't want to be transgender. It not like wanting to be a professional footballer when you are young. It's not a decision.

Vutaur

No, I am not familiar with transsexuals, but I would be interested to make friends with such a person.

RWCNT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Basically a mental issue but as we all have to be PC now people will say this not an mental issue , im not laughing or sneering at them in any way , it must be very hard ,

Again iv no issue with anyone who wants to be Transgender or anyone being who ever they want to be as long as it doesnt hurt anybody

Its not categorised as a mental disorder anymore but I'm honestly not particularly concerned with that.

Even if we accept your view that it is a mental issue, the exact same question applies - have they chosen to have that mental issue? Of course not. And they're addressing that issue by taking the steps pointed out in the NHS link I posted.

Im not saying you're a bigot of any sort, just explaining why I disagree with your assertion that the state of being trans is a choice.

One eyed Jack

RWCNT wrote: »

I actually agree, there isn't anything inherently wrong with being prejudiced or any kind of ist or phobe or what have you Thoughts are thoughts, provided they don't result in malicious actions. Airing out those thoughts can of course be seen as a malicious action though - my hypothetical racist would be acting like a dickhead if he chose to go around telling black people he could never be friends with them because of their race, and they're fair enough to think him a dick for it.

Well, of course you’re perfectly entitled to think him a dick for it, but I wouldn’t necessarily agree in all circumstances. To give you an example of where I’m coming from I suppose - I used be friends with a guy who was black, and one day he told me that he didn’t really feel comfortable with us being friends any more as his friends were telling him he was betraying his race. I could see where both he and his friends were coming from. I didn’t appreciate how it was worded, but I could understand the underlying sentiment.

I didn’t perceive it to be anything malicious on their part, any more than I don’t assume malicious intent on the part of anyone who says they would never date someone who is transgender. I don’t consider it any more a dealbreaker than someone who says they would never date someone who is a single parent, or they wouldn’t date someone with severe flatulence issues, they’re just dealbreakers.

If someone doesn’t share my opinion on concepts I consider fundamental to who a person is such as their gender or sex, then I don’t immediately imagine they’re a dick. If they persist in attempting to convince me of something of which I am not convinced, then they’re in dick territory and are likely to be told as much.

yourdeadwright

Berserker wrote: »

You can't want to be transgender. It not like wanting to be a professional footballer when you are young. It's not a decision.

if its not a choice, what about the countless people who chose to change sex and then chose to change back as they no longer feel the same ?

RWCNT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

if its not a choice, what about the countless people who chose to change sex and then chose to change back as they no longer feel the same ?

Trans people make up an incredibly small number of the population. The percentage of people who transition and then transition back is even smaller. The use of the word "countless" seems unjustified here.

But, even accepting that. Did they choose to no longer feel the same? If so, why would they? And why would they have chosen to feel gender dysphoria which prompted their initial transition in the first place?

.......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To give you an example of where I’m coming from I suppose - I used be friends with a guy who was black,

Honestly OEJ, you have the most fascinating and varied group of acquaintences of anyone on boards.ie.

I remember coming up to the abortion referendum you said you knew loads of women who had had crisis pregnancies, and even helped some of them out.

On this thread alone you claim to know more than one transgender person (when the vast majority of the country dont even know one), you even live next door to one! I mean, there are only about 3000 transpeople in the whole of the country and not only does one live next door to you, but you know a handful more as well! Very believable. Really.

And now you know a black guy who was also a racist!

For a poster with such conservative views, you sure mix with a vast and varied group of people.

One eyed Jack

....... wrote: »

Honestly OEJ, you have the most fascinating and varied group of acquaintences of anyone on boards.ie.

I remember coming up to the abortion referendum you said you knew loads of women who had had crisis pregnancies, and even helped some of them out.

On this thread alone you claim to know more than one transgender person (when the vast majority of the country dont even know one), you even live next door to one!

And now you know a black guy who was also a racist!

For a poster with such conservative views, you sure mix with a vast and varied group of people.

Why are you claiming he was racist? I never thought of him as a racist, and that’s exactly the point I was making to RWCNT.

As for anyone else I happen to know or happen to be friends with, it’s really not that unusual to have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances at my age, it’s far more unusual for someone who is middle-aged not to have a wide variety of friends, acquaintances and work colleagues, so you really don’t have much of a point beyond stringing a few posts together to pretend like you actually know anything about me.

.......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As for anyone else I happen to know or happen to be friends with, it’s really not that unusual to have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances at my age, it’s far more unusual for someone who is middle-aged not to have a wide variety of friends, acquaintances and work colleagues, so you really don’t have much of a point beyond stringing a few posts together to pretend like you actually know anything about me.

The only things I know about you are what you yourself post. The picture painted is with your own brushstrokes.

Ive only mentioned 3 occasions where you have made claims about your wide and varied circle of friends and acquaintances - there are actually MANY more instances, all available through the magic of the search engine. I can go looking if you wish?

I just find it quite, amazing really. That one (conservative) individual knows so many transgender people in Ireland, knows so many women who have had crisis pregnancies in Ireland, and even knows a racist black guy in Ireland!

I think you alluded before that your work took you into contact with all these varied people? Or maybe Im thinking of someone else.

jimgoose

....... wrote: »

...a racist black guy in Ireland...

Must be Clayton Bigsby - evry fule no you can't be racist towards wi'pipo. :pac:

kal7

my cousin is transgender.

Obvious looking back at it now from 3years of age, his now her behaviour.

many years of counselling and psych testing and living as a women before the dutch health system allowed any drugs or surgery to be used.

interestingly my catholic parents, having seen the situation understand it to be right course of action.

RWCNT

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why are you claiming he was racist? I never thought of him as a racist, and that’s exactly the point I was making to RWCNT.

One Eyed Jack wrote:

Well, of course you’re perfectly entitled to think him a dick for it, but I wouldn’t necessarily agree in all circumstances. To give you an example of where I’m coming from I suppose - I used be friends with a guy who was black, and one day he told me that he didn’t really feel comfortable with us being friends any more as his friends were telling him he was betraying his race. I could see where both he and his friends were coming from. I didn’t appreciate how it was worded, but I could understand the underlying sentiment.

Without getting into a whole to-do about the definition of racism, we're far enough off topic already, he certainly discriminated against you based on race. I'd be very pissed off and think the guy was a dick tbh. What do you mean when you say you saw where he and his friends were coming from? How were they betraying their race by being friends with you?

Also - We could all go around in circles on here all day accusing eachother of lying about our personal experiences. None of us actually know a thing about eachother's lives. Provided the anecdotes told are halfway plausible and relevant are we not better off just taking eachother at our word and having the conversation? Anecdotes are just that - anecdotal, so they're hardly the be all end all of conversations anyway.

yourdeadwright

RWCNT wrote: »

Trans people make up an incredibly small number of the population. The percentage of people who transition and then transition back is even smaller. The use of the word "countless" seems unjustified here.

But, even accepting that. Did they choose to no longer feel the same? If so, why would they? And why would they have chosen to feel gender dysphoria which prompted their initial transition in the first place?

Who said that ever trans person has gender dysphoria
If I'm a man and feel like a women your saying that's not my choice, what if I feel like being a bad person is that my choice ?
Am I just free of choice when it come to what sex I am ?


if your deciding to take choice away from who people really are where do you then reintroduce choice?

evil_seed

I know of 1 person. I used to work them him. He was a director in a previous company, and then he took a leave of absence. When he returned he was a she. And we had to call her by her new name. Picture Little Britain "I'm a lady" and that's what it was.

One eyed Jack

....... wrote: »

The only things I know about you are what you yourself post. The picture painted is with your own brushstrokes.

Ive only mentioned 3 occasions where you have made claims about your wide and varied circle of friends and acquaintances - there are actually MANY more instances, all available through the magic of the search engine. I can go looking if you wish?

I just find it quite, amazing really. That one (conservative) individual knows so many transgender people in Ireland, knows so many women who have had crisis pregnancies in Ireland, and even knows a racist black guy in Ireland!

I think you alluded before that your work took you into contact with all these varied people? Or maybe Im thinking of someone else.

That’s entirely your own interpretation of my post. I’ve never said the guy was racist, though I do know of some black people who I would consider racist, I wouldn’t consider them friends though, and I know of some people who are transgender who have a chip on their shoulder about people who don’t share their political beliefs. I wouldn’t consider them friends either.

I’ve met plenty of people who are passive aggressive too, and I wouldn’t consider it amazing that people like that aren’t particularly common in society either, nor would I ever want to be friends with that sort of person.

RWCNT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Who said that ever trans person has gender dysphoria
If I'm a man and feel like a women your saying that's not my choice, what if I feel like being a bad person is that my choice ?
Am I just free of choice when it come to what sex I am ?


if your deciding to take choice away from who people really are where do you then reintroduce choice?

You're quite right that not all transgender people experience gender dysphoria. A great many do though and as there was an NHS article about gender dysphoria handy it was a good example to illustrate the flaw in the logic of your broad statement that trans people "choose" to be so.

Yes. I am saying that if your biological sex is male yet your gender identity is that of a woman, you have not chosen to feel this way. Again, why would someone choose this?

When you say "feel like being a bad person" do you mean having intrusive thoughts to do bad things? If so, then no, of course it's not your choice. People can't "choose" their thoughts.

And yes, of course you don't have any choice when it comes to your biological sex.

I don't know what you're getting at in your last question as I havnt decided to take choice away from anyone, and have no idea how I could even go about doing so if I did.

.......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s entirely your own interpretation of my post. I’ve never said the guy was racist, though I do know of some black people who I would consider racist, I wouldn’t consider them friends though, and I know of some people who are transgender who have a chip on their shoulder about people who don’t share their political beliefs. I wouldn’t consider them friends either.

The very definition of racism is to discriminate based on race which is what the black guy (allegedly) did to you.

I am aware you did not claim he was racist. You cant, because to do so would be to admit you are transphobic, as you are willing to discriminate against trans people by claiming you have nothing in common with them therefore could not be friends with one - despite (allegedly) knowing plenty.

So it suits your agenda to call racism something other than racism.

I am remembering more of your posts actually, and I recall you like to present an opinion as though you are in favour of something while saying plenty of things that betray another point of view, so I will leave you to it.

One eyed Jack

....... wrote: »

The very definition of racism is to discriminate based on race which is what the black guy (allegedly) did to you.

I am aware you did not claim he was racist. You cant, because to do so would be to admit you are transphobic, as you are willing to discriminate against trans people by claiming you have nothing in common with them therefore could not be friends with one - despite (allegedly) knowing plenty.

So it suits your agenda to call racism something other than racism.

I am remembering more of your posts actually, and I recall you like to present an opinion as though you are in favour of something while saying plenty of things that betray another point of view, so I will leave you to it.

You’ll leave me to it, but first you’ll get in your point about me presenting an opinion as though I’m in favour of something while saying plenty of things that betrays another point of view...

Ok Kanye :pac:

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ll leave me to it, but first you’ll get in your point about me presenting an opinion as though I’m in favour of something while saying plenty of things that betrays another point of view...

Ok Kanye :pac:

How dare you have a nuanced and complex view of something.

RWCNT

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ll leave me to it, but first you’ll get in your point about me presenting an opinion as though I’m in favour of something while saying plenty of things that betrays another point of view...

Ok Kanye :pac:

You know Kanye as well?!