Do you know any transgender people?

suicide_circus

klaaaz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You won’t find that information on the HSE website.

The HSE clinic who treat transgender people comprises of medical professionals like endocrinolgists, psychiatrists etc who are experts in their fields, I trust their info on treating transgender people more than I trust your spouting opinion from your armchair.
You seem to be obsessed with the tiny number of detransitioning examples to further your agenda yet ignore that the vast majority of people who medically transition do not detransition.

mcmoustache

klaaaz wrote: »

Who?

Any of the groups who promote the following, commonly promoted idea:

"Gender is a social construct while sex is biological".

It's fairly mainstream but I could list organisations if you like.

One eyed Jack

Dannyriver wrote: »

[/U][/B]

All that stuff is spoken about with mental health/primary care/surgeons before a person/their families makes the transition why do you think it should be on a HSE site?

Because it is in the interests of public health and healthcare for the HSE to publish accurate information, as opposed to inaccurate information which gives people unrealistic expectations of any potential outcomes -


https://extra.ie/2018/06/04/lifestyle/health/sex-change-surgery-regrets-ireland

klaaaz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

https://extra.ie/2018/06/04/lifestyle/health/sex-change-surgery-regrets-ireland

Hilarious posting there Jack. You object that one cannot change sex yet your link has the headline "SEX-CHANGE SPECIALIST" and lists the term "sex-change" many times which is you contradicting yourself!

One eyed Jack's article wrote:

The country’s leading doctor who helps transgender people change their sex...
for sex-change operations

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

The HSE clinic who treat transgender people comprises of medical professionals like endocrinolgists, psychiatrists etc who are experts in their fields, I trust their info on treating transgender people more than I trust your spouting opinion from your armchair.
You seem to be obsessed with the tiny number of detransitioning examples to further your agenda yet ignore that the vast majority of people who medically transition do not detransition.

I would trust their information too more than I trust your spouting from your armchair. Their information doesn’t correspond to your ideological beliefs.

I’m not obsessed at all either with the growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they now regret undergoing medical transition as it didn’t meet their expectations or resolve their underlying issues, or many of the other reasons people are deciding that medical and surgical treatment did not alleviate their underlying issues, and the only agenda I have is concern for anyone who would be misled by your perpetuating misleading information and giving people unrealistic expectations of what is possible with medical and surgical treatment.

I don’t concern myself with people who are happy with the outcomes of their treatment, why would I? I’m happy for them. When anyone though would try to intentionally mislead people with misleading information, that does tend to bother me somewhat.

suicide_circus

we accept that there is a link between smoking and lung cancer.

about 20% of smokers get lung cancer.

about 99% of people with xy chromosomal make up are male.

yet biological sex and gender are not linked.

sorry, no.

dundalkfc10

suicide_circus wrote: »

we accept that there is a link between smoking and lung cancer.

about 20% of smokers get lung cancer.

about 99% of people with xy chromosomal make up are male.

yet biological sex and gender are not linked.

sorry, no.

How many of the 20% would have got it anyway without smoking?

suicide_circus

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

How many of the 20% would have got it anyway without smoking?

about 0.5%

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

Hilarious posting there Jack. You object that one cannot change sex yet your link has the headline "SEX-CHANGE SPECIALIST" and lists the term "sex-change" many times which is you contradicting yourself!

I didn’t write the article, so I’m not contradicting myself by linking to an article where one of the top endocrinologists in the country who deals with transgender healthcare is giving his opinion? I thought that was more important than the headline the journalist who actually wrote the article chose to use, but I can understand that our priorities are clearly very different when that’s all you could take from the article.

kowloon

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehh... have you heard of vasectomy? Just a tad less invasive and far far less damaging to the body than castration.

Why did you have to go and tell them?! We could have had a post in a month's time titled 'I've made a huge mistake'.

klaaaz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I would trust their information too more than I trust your spouting from your armchair. Their information doesn’t correspond to your ideological beliefs.

I’m not obsessed at all either with the growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they now regret undergoing medical transition as it didn’t meet their expectations or resolve their underlying issues, or many of the other reasons people are deciding that medical and surgical treatment did not alleviate their underlying issues, and the only agenda I have is concern for anyone who would be misled by your perpetuating misleading information and giving people unrealistic expectations of what is possible with medical and surgical treatment.

I don’t concern myself with people who are happy with the outcomes of their treatment, why would I? I’m happy for them. When anyone though would try to intentionally mislead people with misleading information, that does tend to bother me somewhat.

What ideological beliefs do I have? It's not my fault that you disregard medical opinion based on your keyboard rants, try to listen to the medical professionals for once. Where is your basis for saying " growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they now regret undergoing medical transition" ? Or are your making it up again?

In all your discussion on threads on transgender people, I do not remember you posting a happy supportive story about transgender people on a single thread, always a negative story. Try a change of your own instead of putting transgender people down.

Charles Ingles

I worry about indulging all the trans movement.
Very high suicide rates among the trans community post op.
Encouraging prepubescent children they can change their biological sex is odd and verging on child abuse.
I know a gender fluid person they aren't well at all, and trendy social crusaders should be aware of unintended consequences

laoch na mona

went to college with a few, obviously in a city and on campus there wasn't much bigotry

Theres a trans woman in my local town. She's viewed as a bit of an oddity but aside from the scumbags most people seem to respect her use her preferred pronouns etc. Not saying they understand or accept trans people but at least most people are polite when talking to her

Dannyriver

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because it is in the interests of public health and healthcare for the HSE to publish accurate information, as opposed to inaccurate information which gives people unrealistic expectations of any potential outcomes -


https://extra.ie/2018/06/04/lifestyle/health/sex-change-surgery-regrets-ireland

Where s the inaccurate information that you re so vexed about. As I said if a family/parents/child is going through the, often frankly terrifying, realisation that their child might be transgender they are going to look further than the non alarmist info that the HSE prudently display. Any further questions will be asked anon. You need to back out of your rational perspective and use empathy to understand the true picture as I do when I empathise with those who knowingly continue to support a criminal organisation like the catholic church due to an intense inability to cope with the fear of nothingness.

Cryptopagan

suicide_circus wrote: »

we accept that there is a link between smoking and lung cancer.

about 20% of smokers get lung cancer.

about 99% of people with xy chromosomal make up are male.

yet biological sex and gender are not linked.

sorry, no.

What is the biological basis of dressing boys in blue and girls in pink? Gender encompasses the social and cultural aspects of what it is to be a man or woman, as well as the biological.

suicide_circus

Cryptopagan wrote: »

What is the biological basis of dressing boys in blue and girls in pink? Gender encompasses the social and cultural aspects of what it is to be a man or woman, not just the biological.

of course there are social and cultural elements to gender. no one would deny that.

what i reject is the blank slate argument. biology plays an enormous role in gender. it is the primary determining factor.

its honesty amazing that the statement needs to be made.

SkepticQuark

suicide_circus wrote: »

of course the are social and cultural elements to gender. no one would deny that.

what i reject is the blank slate argument. biology plays and enormous role in gender. it is the primary determining factor.

It's the primary for someone who's identity isn't at odds with it sure. For someone who doesn't ever question this thing your "sex" male/female (we'll ignore intersex and the variations in chromosomes here to simplify) is usually enough. For someone who might be experiencing gender incongruence (WHO definition) that isn't how that person is going to determine their gender identity though. So I wouldn't say it does automatically play the primary role, it really depends on the person.

suicide_circus

SkepticQuark wrote: »

It's the primary for someone who's identity isn't at odds with it sure. For someone who doesn't ever question this thing your "sex" male/female (we'll ignore intersex and the variations in chromosomes here to simplify) is usually enough. For someone who might be experiencing gender incongruence (WHO definition) that isn't how that person is going to determine their gender identity though. So I wouldn't say it does automatically play the primary role, it really depends on the person.

these things aren't determined by the 1%.

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

What ideological beliefs do I have? It's not my fault that you disregard medical opinion based on your keyboard rants, try to listen to the medical professionals for once. Where is your basis for saying " growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they now regret undergoing medical transition" ? Or are your making it up again?

Your ideological belief that a person can change their sex is absolutely not based upon any medical opinion. I actually have listened to, and do listen to medical professionals and people who are actually at the forefront of transgender healthcare, which is why I’m informed enough to know that I can safely disregard your ill informed beliefs which you continue to inflict on anyone who doesn’t agree with your clearly ill-informed opinion. I don’t mind you making things up and whatever keeps you happy and all, but when you choose to share your beliefs with the world, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that your beliefs are in conflict with people who do not share your beliefs, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to adhere to your beliefs about yourself.

Respect goes in both directions, and if you expect respect for your beliefs, the onus is upon you to respect the fact that people exist who do not share your beliefs, or would you rather pretend and deny that such people actually do exist, in the same way as you appear to be attempting to deny that there are indeed a growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they regret having transitioned? It would stand to reason that just as there are a growing number of that people who are being encouraged by people like yourself to medically and surgically transition to present themselves as their preferred gender, there will be a growing number of people who regret that they underwent such treatments and would have preferred if they had been given a more accurate assessment of any potential outcomes. Medical professionals simply can’t give their patients those sorts of guarantees, so I’m suggesting that you certainly cannot guarantee that anyone can or will ever be able to change their sex, because it is neither socially, medically, nor surgically possible to do so.

In all your discussion on threads on transgender people, I do not remember you posting a happy supportive story about transgender people on a single thread, always a negative story. Try a change of your own instead of putting transgender people down.

Well that’s because you’re looking for ways to perceive yourself as a victim. I don’t generally post happy-go-lucky ****e anyway, so if it’s sunshine and rainbows you’re looking for you’re not likely to find them in my posts. Don’t take it personally though, it’s not just you I don’t really care about all that much.

Charles Ingles

suicide_circus wrote: »

of course there are social and cultural elements to gender. no one would deny that.

what i reject is the blank slate argument. biology plays an enormous role in gender. it is the primary determining factor.

its honesty amazing that the statement needs to be made.

There is only two genders

SkepticQuark

suicide_circus wrote: »

these things aren't determined by the 1%.

A lot of this is people simplifying these questions to the biology they learnt in the junior cert when such a view is like thinking of the Bohr model when talking about the atom. Sure the Bohr model is roughly correct but when we are talking about it in a serious manner it's a good idea to recognise such a model is simplistic. The details matter when we are talking like we are now, to generalise this down misses the nuance required to talk about these things in a manner that is closer to the complicated reality faced by trans people like myself.

Cryptopagan

suicide_circus wrote: »

of course there are social and cultural elements to gender. no one would deny that.

what i reject is the blank slate argument. biology plays an enormous role in gender. it is the primary determining factor.

its honesty amazing that the statement needs to be made.

The “primary determining factor”? On the basis of sex, we decide what sort of name to give our children, how to dress them, how they should wear their hair, what sort of toys we give them, what hobbies they’ll pursue, even where they go to school. All sorts of assumptions will be made about their interests and aspirations as they get older. And we’ll do much of this without ever even thinking about it. How can you imagine that biology is the “primary determining factor” here?

suicide_circus

Cryptopagan wrote: »

The “primary determining factor”? On the basis of sex, we decide what sort of name to give our children, how to dress them, how they should wear their hair, what sort of toys we give them, what hobbies they’ll pursue, even where they go to school. All sorts of assumptions will be made about their interests and aspirations as they get older. And we’ll do much of this without ever even thinking about it. How can you imagine that biology is the “primary determining factor” here?

given the choice, the majority of baby boys will choose a ball or a toy car to play with and the majority of baby girls will choose a toy doll. the same happens with infant chimps. are there boys who choose to play with dolls? you bet, but the exception does not disprove the rule.

Cryptopagan

suicide_circus wrote: »

given the choice, the majority of baby boys will choose a ball or a toy car to play with and the majority of baby girls will choose a toy doll. the same happens with infant chimps. are there boys who choose to play with dolls? you bet, but the exception does not disprove the rule.

I’m pretty skeptical about positivistic studies which place children in a lab environment to test social and psychological hypotheses, and entirely dismissive of the notion that experiments on chimps can teach you anything about social and cultural constructions like gender.

But there’s a tension in your own position here. You’re claiming that there is something inherently biological about gender—boys like to play with trucks while girls prefer dolls, and this is a natural phenomenon and you can find the same preferences among chimps—and therefore gender is essential and immutable. You can’t go against your biology. Yet at the same time, you concede there are boys who prefer dolls. So if a preference for trucks or dolls is biologically coded according to sex, then what does that say about the sex of the boy who prefers dolls? Is his preference not also biological determined? And if it is, doesn’t that make him, in a sense, both biologically male and female, as he might have the anatomical features associated with a boy, but he has the “biologically determined” preferences of a girl?

maccored

suicide_circus wrote: »

given the choice, the majority of baby boys will choose a ball or a toy car to play with and the majority of baby girls will choose a toy doll. the same happens with infant chimps. are there boys who choose to play with dolls? you bet, but the exception does not disprove the rule.

action men etc are toy dolls

RWCNT

maccored wrote: »

action men etc are toy dolls

Has anyone done any scientific research into why children always seem to have Action Man stripped naked within hours of acquiring him?

B0jangles

maccored wrote: »

action men etc are toy dolls

I always always wanted the eagle eyes action man (the one with the eyes that moved from side to side)*, and my favourite toy when I was really small was a little red tractor. What does that say about my gender identity?






*I just looked at an old ad for him and I kiiiiinda still want that action man

suicide_circus

maccored wrote: »

action men etc are toy dolls

well thats the research debunked

razorblunt

No, but a colleague's daughter is living as a male, I'm not sure what the plan is op wise and all that.
He's been very open about his struggling to come to terms with it all and he's now an active member in the LGBT society in work. He does some good stuff.

klaaaz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your ideological belief that a person can change their sex is absolutely not based upon any medical opinion. I actually have listened to, and do listen to medical professionals and people who are actually at the forefront of transgender healthcare, which is why I’m informed enough to know that I can safely disregard your ill informed beliefs which you continue to inflict on anyone who doesn’t agree with your clearly ill-informed opinion. I don’t mind you making things up and whatever keeps you happy and all, but when you choose to share your beliefs with the world, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that your beliefs are in conflict with people who do not share your beliefs, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to adhere to your beliefs about yourself.

It's obvious that you don't listen to medical professionals and people who are actually at the forefront of transgender healthcare where you are misinformed of the reality of the situation, your ill informed beliefs are indeed ill informed as you know that most who do medical transition do not have regrets.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Respect goes in both directions, and if you expect respect for your beliefs, the onus is upon you to respect the fact that people exist who do not share your beliefs, or would you rather pretend and deny that such people actually do exist, in the same way as you appear to be attempting to deny that there are indeed a growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they regret having transitioned? It would stand to reason that just as there are a growing number of that people who are being encouraged by people like yourself to medically and surgically transition to present themselves as their preferred gender, there will be a growing number of people who regret that they underwent such treatments and would have preferred if they had been given a more accurate assessment of any potential outcomes. Medical professionals simply can’t give their patients those sorts of guarantees, so I’m suggesting that you certainly cannot guarantee that anyone can or will ever be able to change their sex, because it is neither socially, medically, nor surgically possible to do so.

Second time asking, where is your evidence of "growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they regret having transitioned", you stated it twice in this post and once before without a shred of proof.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well that’s because you’re looking for ways to perceive yourself as a victim. I don’t generally post happy-go-lucky ****e anyway, so if it’s sunshine and rainbows you’re looking for you’re not likely to find them in my posts. Don’t take it personally though, it’s not just you I don’t really care about all that much.

Try to be happy, it may help you.

SlowBlowin

I think this kids test answer sums up the general LGBT argument.

racist.png

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

It's obvious that you don't listen to medical professionals and people who are actually at the forefront of transgender healthcare where you are misinformed of the reality of the situation, your ill informed beliefs are indeed ill informed as you know that most who do medical transition do not have regrets.

No, I don’t know that any more than you do, precisely because we’re talking about a very small group of people and the research regarding trans healthcare is still very much in it’s infancy. I couldn’t guarantee an outcome any more than you could, and certainly no medical professionals who are actually treating patients ethically will make them any false promises of outcomes that simply nobody can guarantee. It’s one of the reasons there are calls for better healthcare for people who are diagnosed as experiencing gender dysphoria, precisely so that they receive appropriate treatment.

Second time asking, where is your evidence of "growing number of people who are coming out and saying that they regret having transitioned", you stated it twice in this post and once before without a shred of proof.

Formal studies of detransition have been few in number, of disputed quality, and politically controversial. Frequency estimates for detransition and desistance vary greatly, with notable differences in terminology and methodology. Detransition is more common in the earlier stages of transition, particularly before surgeries. The number of detransitioners is unknown but growing.

A 2008 study of gender dysphoric adolescents found 61% desisted from their transgender identity before reaching the age of 29, and a 2013 study found 63% desisted before age 20. A 2019 clinical assessment found that 9.4% of patients with adolescent-emerging gender dysphoria ceased wishing to pursue medical interventions and/or no longer felt that their gender identity was incongruent with their biological sex within an eighteen-month period.

A 2018 survey of WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) surgeons found that approximately 0.3% of patients who underwent transition-related surgery later requested detransition-related surgical care. The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found that 8% of respondents who had transitioned reported having ever detransitioned, and 62% of that group had later returned to living in a trans identity. A 2003 German study found evidence for an increase in the number of demands for detransition, blaming poor practice on the part of "well-meaning but certainly not unproblematic" clinicians who—contrary to international best practices—assumed that transitioning as quickly as possible should be the only correct course of action. Surgeon Miroslav Djordjevic and psychotherapist James Caspian have reported that demand for surgical reversal of the physical effects of medical transition has been on the rise.

Detransitioners have commonly cited trauma, isolation, dissociation, inadequate mental healthcare, and social pressure as motivations for pursuing transition. Informed consent and affirmation of self-diagnosis (both newer but increasingly employed models for transgender healthcare) have been criticized for failing to meet the needs of those who eventually detransition. Among eventual detransitioners, the progression of transition has been found to magnify, rather than remedy, gender dysphoria. Sufferers may fixate on passing (being perceived as their preferred gender), leading them to pursue ever further steps in medical transition.

Motives for detransitioning commonly include financial barriers to transition, social rejection in transition, depression or suicidality due to transition, and discomfort with sexual characteristics developed during transition. Additional motives include concern for lack of data on long-term effects of hormone replacement therapy, concern for loss of fertility, complications from surgery, and changes in gender identity. Some people detransition on a temporary basis, in order to accomplish a particular aim, such as having biologically related children, or until barriers to transition have been resolved or removed. Transgender elders may also detransition out of concern for whether they can receive adequate or respectful care in later life.

See here for more, particularly the cultural and political impact of the growing number of people who are detransitioning or seeking to detransition -Detransition, Wikipedia

Try to be happy, it may help you.

Thanks klaaz, I appreciate the concern as much as I appreciated it coming from my next door neighbour when she first moved in and saw me on crutches and thought I’d had an accident, she said she’d pray for me. It turned out her good intentions were rather short lived, but she’s still not the most annoying person I’ve ever encountered.

Happy now?

klaaaz

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, I don’t know that any more than you do, precisely because we’re talking about a very small group of people and the research regarding trans healthcare is still very much in it’s infancy. I couldn’t guarantee an outcome any more than you could, and certainly no medical professionals who are actually treating patients ethically will make them any false promises of outcomes that simply nobody can guarantee. It’s one of the reasons there are calls for better healthcare for people who are diagnosed as experiencing gender dysphoria, precisely so that they receive appropriate treatment.

As to infancy, people who have medically transitioned have been doing so for decades in the western world. Sure, the treatment has evolved over time to better cater for their needs, it's nothing new.

Yes they require appropriate treatment, unfortunately there is a huge waiting list at the moment for transgender people seeking help, that involves psychologists, psychiatrists and endocrinologists with their associated medical teams.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

See here for more, particularly the cultural and political impact of the growing number of people who are detransitioning or seeking to detransition -Detransition, Wikipedia

Anyone can write and edit a wikipedia article, not exactly a reputable source. You linked back to the "sex-change" article about the situation in Ireland which mentioned 3 people who detransitioned, over 300 people have the Irish gender recognition certs now, the 3 who detransitioned is not exactly a huge number to support your argument is it?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Thanks klaaz, I appreciate the concern as much as I appreciated it coming from my next door neighbour when she first moved in and saw me on crutches and thought I’d had an accident, she said she’d pray for me. It turned out her good intentions were rather short lived, but she’s still not the most annoying person I’ve ever encountered.

Happy now?

Try giving people a hug, it'll give you comfort and a re-assuring smile to your face to help you get happy.

dundalkfc10

suicide_circus wrote: »

about 0.5%

Can ive a link to the research on this?

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

As to infancy, people who have medically transitioned have been doing so for decades in the western world. Sure, the treatment has evolved over time to better cater for their needs, it's nothing new.

Yes they require appropriate treatment, unfortunately there is a huge waiting list at the moment for transgender people seeking help, that involves psychologists, psychiatrists and endocrinologists with their associated medical teams.

Well we’re finally agreed on something at least!

Anyone can write and edit a wikipedia article, not exactly a reputable source. You linked back to the "sex-change" article about the situation in Ireland which mentioned 3 people who detransitioned, over 300 people have the Irish gender recognition certs now, the 3 who detransitioned is not exactly a huge number to support your argument is it?

Of course it’s enough to support what we’re agreed on above, which is entirely the basis of my argument - more research is necessary and more appropriate treatments for patients presenting and diagnosed with gender dysphoria are necessary as opposed to imagining that medical or surgical treatments are the only options for anyone experiencing gender dysphoria.

Try giving people a hug, it'll give you comfort and a re-assuring smile to your face to help you get happy.

I’ll take your advice in the helpful spirit in which it was intended, but I’m just not the sort of person who does hugs, that sort of intimacy weirds me out tbh, it’s just not something I’m comfortable with so I prefer not to engage in that sort of behaviour. I’m perfectly comfortable as I am, but thanks all the same.

Dannyriver

razorblunt wrote: »

No, but a colleague's daughter is living as a male, I'm not sure what the plan is op wise and all that.
He's been very open about his struggling to come to terms with it all and he's now an active member in the LGBT society in work. He does some good stuff.

Fair play to him it takes real courage to be open when you know there are those who have a vested interest in denying your experiences/reality. Never forget that homosexuality was only removed from the DSM in 1973.

If you re looking for one of the true heros of the 20th century look no further than Quentin Crisp now there s a real man in the classical definition of Real Man=Brave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d27gTrPPAyk

How Soon Is Now

Its amazing how people will just keep pushing and pushing to try and change someones mind or make them ''see the light'' when there so convinced there outlook is what is right.....


Had enough of it directed towards me on here over the years and sure didn't that turn out so well!!

smilerf

Not personally but when attending my urologist in tallaght a few months ago I was seen by a woman with a man's voice. Now there could be other reasons for this but I'm pretty sure he was trans

wiggle16

Kind of sad to see so many posters state that they wouldn't want to know someone based upon something so arbitrary.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, the logical conclusion is that I wouldn’t want to be friends with anyone who continued to try and convince me they’re someone they aren’t. Whether they’re trans or not the same underlying principle applies.

From knowing people who are trans, we generally don’t have a lot in common, that’s all. That’s why I said I don’t imagine we would have a lot in common, because my experiences with people who are trans, suggests that we wouldn’t have a whole pile in common. That’s all it is, same as I wouldn’t be going out of my way to be friends with anyone whom I don’t imagine we had a lot in common with each other, let alone anything that could form the foundation of a relationship. I don’t see any point in trying to convince ourselves otherwise.

It's also pretty astonishing that someone can say that they would not like to be friends with a transperson but maintain that it's not prejudiced because they know in advance that they would have "nothing in common".

The implicit premise in that statement is that transpeople are all alike in aspects other than their sole shared characteristic of being trans. Jack, that's what a prejudice is. You're forming an opinion of someone that's not based upon their individual attributes, but rather upon their membership of a group with assumed characteristics. You're making a very weak attempt to dress it up as something that's based upon logic mixed with experience and not upon an arbitrary prejudice - but I suspect you know it doesn't wash. I know you're a clever guy, I don't buy that you can't see that for what it is.

AllForIt

It's easy to see why some would not be happy for transitioning. I suppose it's a bit like plastic surgery. Your hungry to get some procedure done, you have an ideal in your mind what you want to achieve but once it's done it possibly didn't turn out the way you had dreamt. It may be better that before but for some not good enough. I suppose some ppl just say to themselves right I've had it all done now, there is nothing else that can be done, so I may as well just accept this is it and move one. But those who aren't satisfied may continue to feel anguish at not reaching their ideal and perhaps wish they didn't bother at all as they don't feel much better than they did in the first place - possibly worse.

For me all the transitioning stuff is just superficial just like plastic surgery. You could get a face-lift at 60, look 10 years younger after it but it's just a look. Your still 60. Noone who ever had plastic surgery done ever looked like they used to be 10 years previous, they just look different. It's not the wonderful magical thing some might like to think it is. It's just a trick.

I think a problem is some realize it's a trick and others don't - they really think their physical body can be gender changed. And the younger you are the more likely one would believe this which is problematic. I think before anyone transitions they really shouldn't be under any illusions about what they intend to do to themselves. I'm minded of pics I've seen of lip enlargements gone wrong in the media of late. Be careful what you wish for.

suicide_circus

i'm not sure i understand the certainty with which people know that they are male/female in the opposite body. As a male, i dont think i could describe what it feels like. i dont walk around with a conscious appreciation of my maleness.

i think i can understand what it might feel like to feel your body is "wrong" (and how distressing that must be) but the leap to knowing what body would be "right" is a something i cannot quite grasp.

razorblunt

Dannyriver wrote: »

Fair play to him it takes real courage to be open when you know there are those who have a vested interest in denying your experiences/reality. Never forget that homosexuality was only removed from the DSM in 1973.

If you re looking for one of the true heros of the 20th century look no further than Quentin Crisp now there s a real man in the classical definition of Real Man=Brave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d27gTrPPAyk

For sure, to be honest I don't think he's properly come to terms with it fully but I hope he gets there.

branie2

razorblunt wrote: »

For sure, to be honest I don't think he's properly come to terms with it fully but I hope he gets there.

He's been dead now for nearly twenty years

circadian

I know a few, some from before transition. I don't think there's much prejudice against them locally. They're just people like everyone else, some people need to catch themselves on getting worked up about someone else's business.

Dannyriver

wiggle16 wrote: »

Kind of sad to see so many posters state that they wouldn't want to know someone based upon something so arbitrary.



It's also pretty astonishing that someone can say that they would not like to be friends with a transperson but maintain that it's not prejudiced because they know in advance that they would have "nothing in common".

The implicit premise in that statement is that transpeople are all alike in aspects other than their sole shared characteristic of being trans. Jack, that's what a prejudice is. You're forming an opinion of someone that's not based upon their individual attributes, but rather upon their membership of a group with assumed characteristics. You're making a very weak attempt to dress it up as something that's based upon logic mixed with experience and not upon an arbitrary prejudice - but I suspect you know it doesn't wash. I know you're a clever guy, I don't buy that you can't see that for what it is.

Of course he does but like all religious conservatives on the one hand his church tells him certain lifestyles are inherently wrong but on the other hand it is unchristian to hold prejudice. Perhaps he'll pray for their sins.

Dannyriver

AllForIt wrote: »

It's easy to see why some would not be happy for transitioning. I suppose it's a bit like plastic surgery. Your hungry to get some procedure done, you have an ideal in your mind what you want to achieve but once it's done it possibly didn't turn out the way you had dreamt. It may be better that before but for some not good enough. I suppose some ppl just say to themselves right I've had it all done now, there is nothing else that can be done, so I may as well just accept this is it and move one. But those who aren't satisfied may continue to feel anguish at not reaching their ideal and perhaps wish they didn't bother at all as they don't feel much better than they did in the first place - possibly worse.

For me all the transitioning stuff is just superficial just like plastic surgery. You could get a face-lift at 60, look 10 years younger after it but it's just a look. Your still 60. Noone who ever had plastic surgery done ever looked like they used to be 10 years previous, they just look different. It's not the wonderful magical thing some might like to think it is. It's just a trick.

I think a problem is some realize it's a trick and others don't - they really think their physical body can be gender changed. And the younger you are the more likely one would believe this which is problematic. I think before anyone transitions they really shouldn't be under any illusions about what they intend to do to themselves. I'm minded of pics I've seen of lip enlargements gone wrong in the media of late. Be careful what you wish for.

You really do need to read some experiential accounts of the emotional lives of those prior to transitioning. This is about deep seated internal drives not about having a dodgy nose or excessive wrinkles. This thread highlights the lack of understanding there is around the whole issue and suggests that people decide to go make these radical changes [can you even imagine the trauma a person must go through both physically and socially to make that transition, no neither can I] It's not done on a whim or a dislike of one's physical appearance this is deep rooted and all pervasive. As I said read some of the narratives of those trans people if you struggle with the concept. You will definitely be more informed and therefore find it easier to access your empathic side rather than your logical one. Looking at it through the lens of a CIS person is not going to work.

glomar

working in a job .. there was a MTF trans . Huge building .. women didnt want him ( her ) using the womens bathroom . this is a company that boasts pride etc .. anyway made her use the disabled toilets .. as there women objected to her using theirs

razorblunt

branie2 wrote: »

He's been dead now for nearly twenty years

I was referring to the person in my original post that dannyriver mentioned in his first line.

branie2

Sorry, my mistake