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How long before Irish reunification?
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Universities are independant institutions and set their own entry requirements. The Irish language requirement applied in some Irish universities is not set by the state and actually predates the foundation of the state. In a UI I can only expect that universities will still have the freedom to choose their own entry requirements, it is not something that will be decided by government.
As for public servce jobs, Irish is not a requirement for all public service jobs in the Republic today and I am sure that would continue in a UI. As such Irish would continue to be a requirement for only a relativly small number of jobs in the public service. This is already true of the public service in NI, so no major changes there. Given that Irish is the first official language of the Republic and that this confers certain language rights on Irish citizens, such as the right to use Irish in the courts, residents of NI will have their language rights enhanced in a UI. For those that speak Irish and would choose to excerise their right to use it, this I am sure will be welcome. For those that do not speak Irish, they can simply continue not using Irish as before.
Not difficult to accommodate all when the will is there.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0812/1068312-education-irish/?fbclid=IwAR0WXgv0GXxnqdMyRuAs7bSzAoYevMjs9zLifYWg171aAUStXCLnzqogIfw0 -
DFrancieBrady wrote: »As long as they were not doing it to taunt and provoke and marched where they were wanted. I have often recommended a moratorium on parades and flag display.
No to bonfires, personally, for environmental and toxicity reasons. I agree with our laws around that.
So in the event of a United Ireland, there would be "moratorium" I.e. ban on the display of flags, other than the tricolour of course. No parades would be allowed ( well I suppose seeing as a victims parade was not tolerated but a dissident one was in Dublin that is not surprising). No bonfires either. It is ok for environmental reasons for our president to fly from Dublin to somewhere else on the island in his private jet, burning fossil fuels, but not ok for kids to have an annual bonfire, however small.
And most Irish universities, who are mostly funded by the government and work closely with the government, will continue to require Irish as an entry qualification.0 -
15-20 years
He didn't say that. At all. You're lying quite openly here.D
So in the event of a United Ireland, there would be "moratorium" I.e. ban on the display of flags, other than the tricolour of course.And most Irish universities, who are mostly funded by the government and work closely with the government, will continue to require Irish as an entry qualification.
This is an assumption, and if NI universities do not currently have this requirement it won't change because it is not required by law. It's also only required by the NUI universities (which includes UCD). Trinity, Limerick, and DCU do not demand Irish.
None of the Institutes of Technology require Irish. All of the NUI colleges can allow for an exemption that is relatively easy to get (I got one, even where I didn't qualify for an exemption from Irish for the leaving certificate). It is entirely up to NUI as to what qualifies one for exemption, so implicating the government is yet more outright lying on your part.
Do you actively enjoy playing the victim, or do you just hate everything Irish?0 -
D
So in the event of a United Ireland, there would be "moratorium" I.e. ban on the display of flags, other than the tricolour of course. No parades would be allowed ( well I suppose seeing as a victims parade was not tolerated but a dissident one was in Dublin that is not surprising). No bonfires either. It is ok for environmental reasons for our president to fly from Dublin to somewhere else on the island in his private jet, burning fossil fuels, but not ok for kids to have an annual bonfire, however small.
MY (and I stress my position, which will be one of many) would be to hold a moratorium on the display of all flags (expect the agreed flag of a UI) and on all parades on both sides.
I would be totally against bonfires for anybody, but not against logistical flights for members of state as long they are necessary and reasonable.
What are your proposals going to be janfebmar?And most Irish universities, who are mostly funded by the government and work closely with the government, will continue to require Irish as an entry qualification.
As shown in the article above, and in Imreoir's informative post, accommodations can be made around this issue.
What are your proposals re: the Irish Language?0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »To identify as British? No, absolutely not. Nobody is suggesting that.
Well its what happened to those of us who ended up being born in the Republic. We are still denied full rights to our British heritage.0 -
15-20 yearsThe Rape of Lucretia wrote: »Well its what happened to those of us who ended up being born in the Republic. We are still denied full rights to our British heritage.
British citizenship and the rules that decide it are decided by the British government. It is no fault of the Republic if you cannot be British.
In terms of identity without the 'legal' backing, there's also nothing stopping you identifying as British all you would like. Plenty of people in America still connect with their past heritages, and my father still connects with his, and identifies as, his own non-Irish heritage just fine (though granted, he also has the legal standing - being a legal citizen of both nations).0 -
British citizenship and the rules that decide it are decided by the British government. It is no fault of the Republic if you cannot be British.
In terms of identity without the 'legal' backing, there's also nothing stopping you identifying as British all you would like. Plenty of people in America still connect with their past heritages, and my father still connects with his, and identifies as, his own non-Irish heritage just fine (though granted, he also has the legal standing - being a legal citizen of both nations).
So in a 6 joining the 26 scenario, then the same could indeed happen to those born in the future in the 6 - their only option, no matter how much they identified as British, would only have the possibility of a Rep of Ireland passport and citizenship?0 -
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »So in a 6 joining the 26 scenario, then the same could indeed happen to those born in the future in the 6 - their only option, no matter how much they identified as British, would only have the possibility of a Rep of Ireland passport and citizenship?
If you qualify for a British passport you can get one. My partner qualifies, although she doesn't have one. I think I do too, by dint of my parents but have never checked tbh.0 -
15-20 yearsThe Rape of Lucretia wrote: »So in a 6 joining the 26 scenario, then the same could indeed happen to those born in the future in the 6 - their only option, no matter how much they identified as British, would only have the possibility of a Rep of Ireland passport and citizenship?
It's definitely possible. I would not bet on it being likely, as I'd imagine the unionist side of the inevitable negotiations would raise the point quite energetically. If it's only a small minority who care enough to get loud about it though, then they could be easily overlooked in the discussions and then, well...
Yes, if Westminster decided it no longer wanted to extend the option of British citizenship and passport to the people of the six counties then they could, unilaterally, decide that. Neither Dublin nor Belfast could convince them otherwise.
As British law currently stands, however, there would be a one generation leeway were that to happen. You can have British citizenship passed on by descent, provided one of your parents is a British citizenship by anything other than by descent (by birth, by naturalisation, by registration, by adoption). Any parent born in Northern Ireland (to British parents, Britain does not have the US rule of 'all children born here are citizens', at least one parent must be British) would likely remain a UK citizen (unless Westminster was extremely callous and revoked it) and therefore could pass on citizenship to their children after unification. It would only be for a single generation however. The current laws would not provide for grandchildren to be granted British citizenship.
But (and this is interesting), one of the methods of gaining citizenship is 'by registration'. This is easier, and much faster, than by naturalisation but has criteria which limits who it can apply to. A number of British laws allow certain citizens of Hong Kong (a former British territory) to apply for British citizenship. The requirements are numerous and it can be a pain to sift through them (it's not as simple as 'be from Hong Kong') but it could act as a precedent for a similar act of UK law to cover those from the six counties.
Ultimately though, citizenship granting and laws are entirely up to the relevant country. In the event of a border poll passing and a New Ireland, the citizens of Northern Ireland would need to argue their case for keeping British citizenship to Parliament. It would not be something the people of the Republic could do for them (although I'd wager they could back the unionists on the matter, since it would be in the interest of a smooth and peaceful transition for the UK to allow it).0 -
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10-15 years
I always suspected you had a British "heart of oak"francie!:)FrancieBrady wrote: »The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »So in a 6 joining the 26 scenario, then the same could indeed happen to those born in the future in the 6 - their only option, no matter how much they identified as British, would only have the possibility of a Rep of Ireland passport and citizenship?
If you qualify for a British passport you can get one. My partner qualifies, although she doesn't have one. I think I do too, by dint of my parents but have never checked tbh.0 -
10-15 yearsAnd most Irish universities, who are mostly funded by the government and work closely with the government, will continue to require Irish as an entry qualification.
I'm sure those Universities which require Irish today will contiune to require Irish in a UI, others like UL, TCD (who are also funded by and work closely with the government) and presumably universities located in NI will continue not to require Irish.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be struggeling to imply that unification comes with the threat of Irish being forced as a requirement on all Universities by the Irish government. Where your implication falls down, however is that the Irish government does not force Universities to have an Irish language requirement today, regardless of how closely they work with or how much funding they provide to those Universities, because Universities are independant institutions that set their own entry requirements. As such, unification does not come with any threat of Irish being imposed as an entry requirement on universities in NI.0 -
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20-30 yearsOver on The Irish Times website now:
Number of British passports issued in Northern Ireland falls
Sammy Wilson's comments are very instructive; can anybody imagine in, say, 1980 he or indeed any other Unionist politician would be so blasé about somebody from the unionist community getting an Irish passport, never mind huge numbers of people from a unionist background getting them as is now the reality?
Whoever says things don't change in the north is very wrong. People, including unionists, are far more practical than the ideological naysayers here would like to contend. Wait until the practical obstacles of a no-deal Brexit sink into the farming community and other former recipients of EU billions north of the border.The number of British passports issued in Northern Ireland has been steadily declining over the past four years, with the most significant drop in the year after the 2016 Brexit referendum, new official figures from London show.
The UK passport office began recording a breakdown of documents issued by region only in 2015.
That year, 129,550 British passports were printed for people living in Northern Ireland. The following year, the number dipped slightly to 128,759, while in 2017 it dropped to 121,858.
Last year, the figure fell again to 119,298.
The figures were obtained in response to a Freedom of Information request.
Over the same period, the issuance of Irish passports to citizens living in the North has risen significantly.
In 2015, some 53,715 Irish passports were issued through Northern Ireland Passport Express (NIPX), which is available at post offices in the North. This rose to 67,582 the following year, jumped to 82,274 in 2017 and increased again last year to 84,855.
The figures do not include Irish citizens in the North who apply for their passports from Dublin.
Sammy Wilson, the DUP MP for East Antrim and the party’s Brexit spokesman, said he was “not particularly” concerned about the trend of declining British passports and increasing Irish passports.
“There could be a lot of reasons behind it, but nothing that would give any cause for alarm,” he said.
“The Irish passport comes through a heck of a deal faster than a British passport, so you may well find that a lot of people, like myself, leave things to the last minute and their passport is nearly expired.
“And if somebody came in and asked me for advice, saying they’re going on their holidays in the middle of September, should they apply for a British or Irish passport, I’ll tell them, if you want to go on your holidays, you best apply for an Irish passport rather than a British passport.”
Non-political reasons
Other possible factors in the trend could include concerns over disruption after Brexit, cost and issues to do with travel insurance, he added.
“There are lots of non-political reasons why people would take an Irish passport,” he said.
“People who are my voters come to me, and they are totally unembarrassed about getting an Irish passport – they just say would you sign this [Irish passport application] for me? End of story.
“I don’t think this is a voter going in the nationalist direction.”
Mr Wilson said he regularly gets “quite a lot” of constituents from loyalist areas who come to him to sign applications for Irish passports.
“I just signed two this week, I know them, they are from the unionist community. I have no doubt people are applying for Irish passports now who wouldn’t have had in the past.”
But Mr Wilson said he did not hold an Irish passport and would not be getting one.
“I don’t believe when we leave the EU that there is going to be any disruption,” he said.
“If you have to stand in a queue for an extra five minutes when you’re going through the airport at Malaga or whatever, big deal. It’s not an important issue as far as I’m concerned.”0 -
It's definitely possible. I would not bet on it being likely, as I'd imagine the unionist side of the inevitable negotiations would raise the point quite energetically. If it's only a small minority who care enough to get loud about it though, then they could be easily overlooked in the discussions and then, well...
Yes, if Westminster decided it no longer wanted to extend the option of British citizenship and passport to the people of the six counties then they could, unilaterally, decide that. Neither Dublin nor Belfast could convince them otherwise.
As British law currently stands, however, there would be a one generation leeway were that to happen. You can have British citizenship passed on by descent, provided one of your parents is a British citizenship by anything other than by descent (by birth, by naturalisation, by registration, by adoption). Any parent born in Northern Ireland (to British parents, Britain does not have the US rule of 'all children born here are citizens', at least one parent must be British) would likely remain a UK citizen (unless Westminster was extremely callous and revoked it) and therefore could pass on citizenship to their children after unification. It would only be for a single generation however. The current laws would not provide for grandchildren to be granted British citizenship.
But (and this is interesting), one of the methods of gaining citizenship is 'by registration'. This is easier, and much faster, than by naturalisation but has criteria which limits who it can apply to. A number of British laws allow certain citizens of Hong Kong (a former British territory) to apply for British citizenship. The requirements are numerous and it can be a pain to sift through them (it's not as simple as 'be from Hong Kong') but it could act as a precedent for a similar act of UK law to cover those from the six counties.
Ultimately though, citizenship granting and laws are entirely up to the relevant country. In the event of a border poll passing and a New Ireland, the citizens of Northern Ireland would need to argue their case for keeping British citizenship to Parliament. It would not be something the people of the Republic could do for them (although I'd wager they could back the unionists on the matter, since it would be in the interest of a smooth and peaceful transition for the UK to allow it).
it looks like an automatic thing to meGood Friday Agreement wrote:recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Over on The Irish Times website now:
Number of British passports issued in Northern Ireland falls
Sammy Wilson's comments are very instructive; can anybody imagine in, say, 1980 he or indeed any other Unionist politician would be so blasé about somebody from the unionist community getting an Irish passport, never mind huge numbers of people from a unionist background getting them as is now the reality?
Whoever says things don't change in the north is very wrong. People, including unionists, are far more practical than the ideological naysayers here would like to contend. Wait until the practical obstacles of a no-deal Brexit sink into the farming community and other former recipients of EU billions north of the border.
So, 'nothing to see here', says Sammy.0 -
In the theoretical context of a united Ireland, one of the inevitable changes that would have to happen would be a diminished role for the Irish language in affairs of State.
The primacy of the Irish language in affairs of law would have to go, with English acquiring equal status, but also with English becoming the working language of the State.
The State would still be in a position to support minority languages such as Irish to the extent it wished, but it would no longer have a primary position in constitutional law.
This will be one of the hardest concessions that would have to be made, but without it, a united Ireland could never work.0 -
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15-20 yearsit looks like an automatic thing to me
It is currently. My post was in response to how citizenship would be handled after a successful border poll. The legal entity of Northern Ireland would cease to exist, nullifying the GFA and the automatic dual citizenship therein.
It would be relatively simple for the UK to extend the dual citizenship rights to those born in the six counties afterwards, but it would not necessarily be automatic as it is now.0 -
15-20 yearsIn the theoretical context of a united Ireland, one of the inevitable changes that would have to happen would be a diminished role for the Irish language in affairs of State.
The primacy of the Irish language in affairs of law would have to go, with English acquiring equal status, but also with English becoming the working language of the State.
The State would still be in a position to support minority languages such as Irish to the extent it wished, but it would no longer have a primary position in constitutional law.
This will be one of the hardest concessions that would have to be made, but without it, a united Ireland could never work.
This is one of those constitutional things (like the "place of the woman is in the home" outdated silliness) that is...well not really terribly urgent. The current situation with regards to the law and the running of the State makes it, effectively, already removed from the constitution.
Pretty much everything the State does is done through English first. I work for the State, and I cannot think of a single moment where myself, or any of the people I've interacted with, have done anything "Irish first". In fact, the inability of the civil service to properly cater to Irish speakers is a rather pointed failing, considering it's one of our legal languages. On one of the government sites I work on, it is given equivalent prominence to Polish as an option.
English is already, constitutionally, an official language of the state. Even if it's 'second' on a technical constitutional basis it is, de facto, the state's first language. Irish is not offered as an L1 Language by the Department of Education - DES only offers an L2 (foreign language) curriculum. Government websites and services all default to English. The idea that English is in any way a 'second-fiddle' language in this country is, frankly, ridiculous.
Secondly: In the event of a New Ireland, the unionist population would still be a minority. A very significant one, certainly, but ultimately a minority nonetheless. A change to the constitution would require a referendum and rightly so. It shouldn't simply happen because the unionists want it gone. They would have a right, as citizens, to make their voices heard and campaign for change same as any other minority. One voice, one vote as democracy demands. And if they make their voice heard enough to win the resulting referendum I won't like it (I believe Irish should be kept alive because it was forcibly eradicated rather than naturally dying out, and I think cultural heritage is an important thing to keep alive within nations), but I'll learn to deal with it. There's a lot that's been decided democratically that I amn't very happy about - that's the nature of democracy.0 -
It is currently. My post was in response to how citizenship would be handled after a successful border poll. The legal entity of Northern Ireland would cease to exist, nullifying the GFA and the automatic dual citizenship therein.
It would be relatively simple for the UK to extend the dual citizenship rights to those born in the six counties afterwards, but it would not necessarily be automatic as it is now.
The GFA won’t be nullified by a United Ireland, it would need to be amended as part of the process.0 -
This is one of those constitutional things (like the "place of the woman is in the home" outdated silliness) that is...well not really terribly urgent.
Pretty much everything the State does is done through English first. I work for the State, and I cannot think of a single moment where myself, or any of the people I've interacted with, have done anything "Irish first". In fact, the inability of the civil service to properly cater to Irish speakers is a rather pointed failing, considering it's one of our legal languages. On one of the government sites I work on, it is given equivalent prominence to Polish as an option.
English is already, constitutionally, an official language of the state. Even if it's 'second' on a technical constitutional basis it is, de facto, the state's first language. Irish is not offered as an L1 Language by the Department of Education - DES only offers an L2 (foreign language) curriculum. Government websites and services all default to English. The idea that English is in any way a 'second-fiddle' language in this country is, frankly, ridiculous.
Secondly: In the event of a New Ireland, the unionist population would still be a minority. A very significant one, certainly, but ultimately a minority nonetheless. A change to the constitution would require a referendum and rightly so. It shouldn't simply happen because the unionists want it gone.
You may not be up to speed with recent court judgments in this regard - will try and dig them out, but the State lost a serious case on the failure to translate legislation into Irish.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »It is a 'birthright to CHOOSE an identity'.
CorrectYou cannot choose as a newborn.
Perhaps, so why on gods earth do you (a raging bigot as evidence by your posts) choose for them?
A newborn or a child wouldn't have the cognitive or the mental capacity to choose an identity for themselves. Yet, here you are trying to lay claim to babies and kids as being 'Irish' by default. It's a weird and sick point of view, and kinda creepy to be honest.By saying we are all Irish by virtue of being born on the island of Ireland, I am not claiming an identity or imposing one on anybody.
That is the very definition of imposing a belief on someone. You just lack the empathy or the mental capacity to see this.
Again, for the 10th time, the GFA is clear on this.
Please show me anywhere in the GFA that it states that people are by 'default' Irish until they choose an identity.0 -
10-15 yearsI think in a united Ireland we'll have to look at changing many things, which makes absolute sense. It will be a new country and not even talking on Ulster-Scots, over all everything will need looking at including a new constitution.
Personally I'll most look forward to a possible end of civil war politics.0 -
20-30 yearsAs today, 12 August 2019, is precisely 50 years since the beginning of the Battle of the Bogside, which was followed 2 days later by the arrival of British troops into the North of Ireland, I decided to check the census figures then, the nearest being the 1971 Census.
1971 Northern Ireland Census:
Total population in 1971 = 1,519,640
Total Catholic population in 1971 = 477,919
% of population that was Catholic in 1971= 31.8%
2011 Northern Ireland Census:
Total population in 2011 = 1,810,863
Total Catholic population in 2011 = 738,033
% of population that was Catholic in 2011= 40.8%*
* Importantly, 45.1% of the population in the 2011 Census, however, said they were raised as Catholic.
Crucially, as everybody can see by following the above 2011 Census link to 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows:' there are more Catholics than Protestants at every age group under 40 years of age in Northern Ireland. There's no escaping the demographic change here, although clearly some of our most vociferous posters here are very keen to deny its significance.0 -
15-20 yearsYou may not be up to speed with recent court judgments in this regard - will try and dig them out, but the State lost a serious case on the failure to translate legislation into Irish.
Which really just proves my point (but yes, I was unaware of this court case. I hope you can find the links).
Having the State do things through Irish first I'd be all for changing, if only from a practical if not cultural perspective. But the fact that it got in trouble for not translating into Irish it's own legal apparatuses just proves that English is the State's first language in practice if not by law.
So why remove Irish? It's like the signs thing in Northern Ireland (only without the innate history of violence which sours everything, I give NI more leeway on this than I would say...Cork in the event of a New Ireland). It's not like the government access in English would suddenly become unavailable or second-class. If parties complained about having access to Irish because of some ideological grounds well then...tough. It doesn't actually work to their detriment in any appreciable way. Having "Doire" on a sign alongside "Londonderry" doesn't somehow make it impossible to read "Londonderry, 10 miles".
(As I said, NI is a special case because of cultural sensitivities. I don't fully buy into it for a language as much as I do with flags and military patches, but it's still something, so I'm not as outspoken on keeping Irish language about for the six counties).0 -
Correct
Perhaps, so why on gods earth do you (a raging bigot as evidence by your posts) choose for them?
A newborn or a child wouldn't have the cognitive or the mental capacity to choose an identity for themselves. Yet, here you are trying to lay claim to babies and kids as being 'Irish' by default. It's a weird and sick point of view, and kinda creepy to be honest.
That is the very definition of imposing a belief on someone. You just lack the empathy or the mental capacity to see this.
Again, for the 10th time, the GFA is clear on this.
Please show me anywhere in the GFA that it states that people are by 'default' Irish until they choose an identity.
The GFA wasn't so silly. It is a serious document on 'identity' which has nothing to do with where you were born.
If you are born on an island then you come from that island, in this case Ireland = Irish you choose your identity when you are able to choose an identity.
It is such a simple truism the GFA didn't need to state it.
You are too busy getting offended on other's behalf you cannot see it.0 -
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Universities are independant institutions and set their own entry requirements. The Irish language requirement applied in some Irish universities is not set by the state and actually predates the foundation of the state. In a UI I can only expect that universities will still have the freedom to choose their own entry requirements, it is not something that will be decided by government.
As for public servce jobs, Irish is not a requirement for all public service jobs in the Republic today and I am sure that would continue in a UI. As such Irish would continue to be a requirement for only a relativly small number of jobs in the public service. This is already true of the public service in NI, so no major changes there. Given that Irish is the first official language of the Republic and that this confers certain language rights on Irish citizens, such as the right to use Irish in the courts, residents of NI will have their language rights enhanced in a UI. For those that speak Irish and would choose to excerise their right to use it, this I am sure will be welcome. For those that do not speak Irish, they can simply continue not using Irish as before.
You kinda downplay it in fairness. Irish is compulsory right up to 2nd level, so in that respect, it would have to change in a UI for sure.
The big one is the Police Force, where there is a de-facto level of Irish required unless you speak French or some other language instead of English.
A UI will need to look at the way we do the Irish language in this state, which is no means a bad thing.0
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