How long before Irish reunification?

RobMc59

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

She could never be 'British' unless she was born in England, Scotland or Wales or chose to be identified as British.

I'm assumimg she was born in NI, so she can be described as British. NI is part if the UK ans people from the UK are British by definition.

You told the other poster not to be over sensitive about facts.

You are correct but you'll have to get used to the ignorance of most of the republican self proclaimed "experts"on all matters regarding nationality etc..
I'm sure you are already aware that in the UK you are regarded as British first rather than from whichever of the 4 countries which make up the UK.
I've had numerous heated discussions with the main republican posters when it was pointed out the banner the SF leader posed in front of saying 'England out of Ireland'was incorrect as it should have said Britain-they argued incessantly despite this being clearly wrong.So I wouldn't hold out too much hope of any of them admitting they are wrong to you and if you continue to point out their mistake they will probably become abusive to you.

James Brown

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

But its not occupied because the majority up North want to be part of the UK and we, by voting for the GFA, have accepted that.

The the UK is officially a nation and given that nationally is defined as either your place of birth or nation of birth describing for example Michelle O'Neil as a British woman who identifies as Irish is just as valid as Francie calling the other poster as an Irish national who identifies as British.

You're confusing accepted with wanted. There was no poll to set up N.I as is. It's assumed a majority want to be part of the U.K. We accept it is what it is of course.

Nope it's not. The U.K. is made up of places under British jurisdiction. N.I. stands for Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I'm assumimg she was born in NI, so she can be described as British. NI is part of the UK and people from the UK are British by definition.

You told the other poster not to be over sensitive about facts.

Yes, I phrased that wrong. She has British 'citizenship' (a legal construct) but loads of people who are not British(not born in Britian) have 'British citizenship'.
Loads of people who are not Irish have 'Irish citizenship'.

Imreoir2

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

They are British by definition. Look up the definition of nationality. M'ON is as Irish as Trimble is British.

Look up the GFA, its quite clear, Irish or British or both, not British by definition.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct but you'll have to get used to the ignorance of most of the republican self proclaimed "experts"on all matters regarding nationality etc..
I'm sure you are already aware that in the UK you are regarded as British first rather than from whichever of the 4 countries which make up the UK.
I've had numerous heated discussions with the main republican posters when it was pointed out the banner the SF leader posed in front of saying 'England out of Ireland'was incorrect as it should have said Britain-they argued incessantly despite this being clearly wrong.So I wouldn't hold out too much hope of any of them admitting they are wrong to you and if you continue to point out their mistake they will probably become abusive to you.

We Irish always knew who really ran the show Rob. Scotland and Wales and Unionists are only finding out now. Buckle up!

aoh

10-15 years

But if Data says 2024, then it must have will jave happened.

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct but you'll have to get used to the ignorance of most of the republican self proclaimed "experts"on all matters regarding nationality etc..
I'm sure you are already aware that in the UK you are regarded as British first rather than from whichever of the 4 countries which make up the UK.
I've had numerous heated discussions with the main republican posters when it was pointed out the banner the SF leader posed in front of saying 'England out of Ireland'was incorrect as it should have said Britain-they argued incessantly despite this being clearly wrong.So I wouldn't hold out too much hope of any of them admitting they are wrong to you and if you continue to point out their mistake they will probably become abusive to you.

When I see England out of Ireland or Brits out I take it to mean the same thing. The seat of power being in England.
When anywhere you'd be regarded as Irish first. As discussed many people the world over, including Britain, have either no clue or much of an interest in the status of N.I. Irish if from Ireland.

jh79

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Look up the GFA, its quite clear, Irish or British or both, not British by definition.

Its Francie that has the problem with the GFA not me.

As i said Trimble is as British as MON is irish.

If its ok to say that Trimble is an Irish man who identifies as British it is equally correct to say MON is a british woman who identifies as irish.

Imreoir2

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

Its Francie that has the problem with the GFA not me.

As i said Trimble is as British as MON is irish.

If its ok to say that Trimble is an Irish man who identifies as British it is equally correct to say MON is a british woman who identifies as irish.

Sure, some unionsts will insist that all NI residents are British, some nationalists will insist that all NI residents are Irish, and the rest of us will get on with our lives.

jh79

20-30 years

jh79 wrote: »

The the UK is officially a nation and given that nationally is defined as either your place of birth or nation of birth describing for example Michelle O'Neil as a British woman who identifies as Irish is just as valid as Francie calling the other poster as an Irish national who identifies as British.

It's actually not, by virtue of the fact that Britain is an entirely different land mass, indeed an entirely different island, from Ireland even if the British state (1603-1801) in the form of the UK state (from 1801) has spread its tentacles upon the country of Ireland. UK state = state of Great Britain and Ireland. State ≠ country. British people come from Britain; Irish people come from Ireland.

Moreover, by your decidedly imperialist logic, everybody living under British rule in Ireland before 6 December 1922 was "British"? Is that really the sort of supremacist jingoistic 'might makes right' British imperialist shíte you want to peddle on an Irish website in 2019?

All my grandparents were born in the late 19th century in the part of this country which is now free from John Bull's tyranny, buíochas le Dia, and my maternal grandmother who was born in 1897 lived with us growing up in the 1980s so I had great chats with her over the years. None of them would ever, ever have seen themselves as "British", and all would very firmly have viewed themselves as Irish. No discussion, ever. Amazing; Irish people living in Ireland and then the likes of you wander in and impose the identity of the neighbouring colonial power upon our people and force us to fight for our Irish identity, for our Irish tradition, for our interpretation of what has happened to us at the hands of the Butcher's Apron. In Ireland. Get out of that garden, sunshine. If you want British people, feel free to impose that demonym on people who live over in Britain. Brexit, and that steep cliff, can't come soon enough. The great humbling.

'They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken'

- Bobby Sands (1954-1981), Irishman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt8_Ou8rvpQ

jh79

It's Francie that is imposing a nationality on people by ignoring the fact that nationality covers nation of birth too.

The fact is those born in Belfast are born in the UK. Their nationality can be Irish or British. Some identify as Irish others as British.

Remember Francie said that the British poster shouldn't be upset with been called Irish as it is a fact. By the same token he shouldn't be upset with me describing MON as a British woman identifying as Irish.

He also said that you can be Irish who identifies as British but you can't be British who identifies as Irish.

I accept the nationality that those up North choose.

Francie i believe is trying to demean the British poster choice by insisting they are Irish first.

As i said to Francie show me a definition that says place of birth thrumps nation of birth?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

It's Francie that is imposing a nationality on people by ignoring the fact that nationality covers nation of birth too.

The fact is those born in Belfast are born in the UK. Their nationality can be Irish or British. Some identify as Irish others as British.

Remember Francie said that the British poster shouldn't be upset with been called Irish as it is a fact. By the same token he shouldn't be upset with me describing MON as a British woman identifying as Irish.

He also said that you can be Irish who identifies as British but you can't be British who identifies as Irish.

I accept the nationality that those up North choose.

Francie i believe is trying to demean the British poster choice by insisting they are Irish first.

As i said to Francie show me a definition that says place of birth thrumps nation of birth?

Francie is stating that anyone born on an island called Ireland (if this is wrong tell us how it is wrong) are Irish people by simple logic. Logic that Ian Paisley understood.
I am not trying to demean anybody nor confer an identity on them.

Citizenship, and identity come later.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Deleted User wrote: »

It's actually not, by virtue of the fact that Britain is an entirely different land mass, indeed an entirely different island, from Ireland even if the British state (1603-1801) in the form of the UK state (from 1801) has spread its tentacles upon the country of Ireland. UK state = state of Great Britain and Ireland. State ≠ country. British people come from Britain; Irish people come from Ireland.

Moreover, by your decidedly imperialist logic, everybody living under British rule in Ireland before 6 December 1922 was "British"? Is that really the sort of supremacist jingoistic 'might makes right' British imperialist shíte you want to peddle on an Irish website in 2019?

All my grandparents were born in the late 19th century in the part of this country which is now free from John Bull's tyranny, buíochas le Dia, and my maternal grandmother who was born in 1897 lived with us growing up in the 1980s so I had great chats with her over the years. None of them would ever, ever have seen themselves as "British", and all would very firmly have viewed themselves as Irish. No discussion, ever. Amazing; Irish people living in Ireland and then the likes of you wander in and impose the identity of the neighbouring colonial power upon our people and force us to fight for our Irish identity, for our Irish tradition, for our interpretation of what has happened to us at the hands of the Butcher's Apron. In Ireland. Get out of that garden, sunshine. If you want British people, feel free to impose that demonym on people who live over in Britain. Brexit, and that steep cliff, can't come soon enough. The great humbling.
=======================================================================
I don`t agree with a lot of what you say but find this post fascinating.
My maternal grandparents were also born in the 19th century,my Grandfather joined the Black Watch and fought for his country in WW1 and was wounded in action twice in France.My Grandmother was a nurse who served in North Africa during WW2.My Paternal Grandfather was born in the early 20th century,he joined the merchant navy and was part of the Arctic convoys,his ship was torpedoed and he was a POW in Norway,two of his close relatives were killed in action in WW1,one is in a war grave in France and the other was killed onboard HMS Hampshire when it hit a mine off the coast of Orkney,he is still there in HMS Hampshire which is a war grave .My Mother was born in 1921,lived through WW2 and despite the area we still live in (Merseyside)being blitzed she has no animosity towards the Germans (none of my relatives I`ve mentioned did either,although I never met my maternal grandfather) they were all doing what they thought best for their country and despite your opinion of Britain there are British people who are proud to be British and the sacrifices their forefathers made fighting for their country-that is why I will always defend my country as long as I have breath in my body.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Francie is stating that anyone born on an island called Ireland (if this is wrong tell us how it is wrong) are Irish people by simple logic. Logic that Ian Paisley understood.
I am not trying to demean anybody nor confer an identity on them.

Citizenship, and identity come later.

And what is a person born in Belfast nation of birth?

James Brown

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

It's Francie that is imposing a nationality on people by ignoring the fact that nationality covers nation of birth too.

The fact is those born in Belfast are born in the UK. Their nationality can be Irish or British. Some identify as Irish others as British.

Remember Francie said that the British poster shouldn't be upset with been called Irish as it is a fact. By the same token he shouldn't be upset with me describing MON as a British woman identifying as Irish.

He also said that you can be Irish who identifies as British but you can't be British who identifies as Irish.

I accept the nationality that those up North choose.

Francie i believe is trying to demean the British poster choice by insisting they are Irish first.

As i said to Francie show me a definition that says place of birth thrumps nation of birth?

Look for me it's very plain. You are where you are from. On this land, Irish. Now you may well be British but you'd be Irish born. It's the same for the Welsh. They'd be Welsh born and British.
The Irish government is subject to change, like N.I. and it's wandering borders and effort at self governing and in time all this will likely change and we don't know what'll happen come Brexit, but it will all take place on Ireland.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

British people who are proud to be British and the sacrifices their forefathers made fighting for their country-that is why I will always defend my country as long as I have breath in my body.

Don't worry, we won't invade, no matter how bad it gets.

Huntergonzo

Do we really need Irish unity? Can we afford it? Is it worth it?

To me it isn't really that important if I'm being totally honest.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Francie is stating that anyone born on an island called Ireland (if this is wrong tell us how it is wrong) are Irish people by simple logic. Logic that Ian Paisley understood.
I am not trying to demean anybody nor confer an identity on them.

Citizenship, and identity come later.

National identity is different to nationality. I have a relative that was born in France . She left before she was 1. She is French by
definition has Irish citizenship and an Irish identity.

Up north you are born equally Irish or British and then you choose.


Don't tell a poster not to get upset over a fact and then dispute an equally valid fact.

Or at least be honest an say ye voted for GFA and just ignore the bits you don't like.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't worry, we won't invade, no matter how bad it gets.

On the contrary francie,it does`nt get any better than being British imo;)

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

National identity is different to nationality. I have a relative that was born in France . She left before she was 1. She is French by
definition has Irish citizenship and an Irish identity.

Up north you are born equally Irish or British and then you choose.


Don't tell a poster not to get upset over a fact and then dispute an equally valid fact.

Or at least be honest an say ye voted for GFA and just ignore the bits you don't like.

There are Jamaicans who are British 'citizens' but they will never be British, they will always be Jamaicans.

jh79

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Look for me it's very plain. You are where you are from. On this land, Irish. Now you may well be British but you'd be Irish born. It's the same for the Welsh. They'd be Welsh born and British.
The Irish government is subject to change, like N.I. and it's wandering borders and effort at self governing and in time all this will likely change and we don't know what'll happen come Brexit, but it will all take place on Ireland.

But your expanding the definition of nationality to suit your world view. It's an opinion not a fact.

And the nation you are born in doesn't change either. It's a snapshot in history. You might not like it but Francie says people shouldn't be so sensitive to facts.

The Rape of Lucretia

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

She could never be 'British' unless she was born in England, Scotland or Wales or chose to be identified as British.

A triviality. Everyone understands 'British' to be a less awkward term for United Kingdom-ish, which doesnt exactly trip off the tongue. A citizen of the UK is what is meant, and the objection above is a pointless semantic. We are all the descendants of British citizens.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are Jamaicans who are British 'citizens' but they will never be British, they will always be Jamaicans.

So you wouldn't say to a Jamaican they are British eventhough it is factually correct but would tell a British person up north that they were Irish first in essence but they shouldn't get upset cause its a fact.

Why is 1 factual statement ok and the other not?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

So you wouldn't say to a Jamaican they are British eventhough it is factually correct but would tell a British person up north that they were Irish first in essence but they shouldn't get upset cause its a fact.

Why is 1 factual statement ok and the other not?

Nobody is defining an identity for someone by stating where they were born. It is totally insecure nonsense to try to live in denial of a simple geographical fact.

I actually don't know a single person in the north (and I live smack on the border and I am in the north most days of the week and deal with people who identify as British all the time) who would have a problem with being called an Irish person because they were born in Ireland. Not one.


I think one person who says they are a Unionist here took issue with it.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is defining an identity for someone by stating where they were born. It is totally insecure nonsense to try to live in denial of a simple geographical fact.

I actually don't know a single person in the north (and I live smack on the border and I am in the north most days of the week and deal with people who identify as British all the time) who would have a problem with being called an Irish person because they were born in Ireland. Not one.


I think one person who says they are a Unionist here took issue with it.

A baby born tonight in Belfast is born simultaneously in the UK and the Island of Ireland. So they are equally Irish and British unless they chose a specific identity.

MON obviously wouldn't like being called a British woman who identifies as Irish and Trimble i'm assuming would like to be told he is Irish but identifies as British.

Both are factually correct but insensitive ways of addressing them.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

A baby born tonight in Belfast is born simultaneously in the UK and the Island of Ireland. So they are equally Irish and British unless they chose a specific identity.

MON obviously wouldn't like being called a British woman who identifies as Irish and Trimble i'm assuming would like to be told he is Irish but identifies as British.

Both are factually correct but insensitive ways of addressing them.

Why is calling someone born on the island of Ireland - Irish, insensitive if it is factually correct?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is calling someone born on the island of Ireland - Irish, insensitive if it is factually correct?

For the same reason me calling MON a British woman, for being born in the UK, that identifies as Irish is.

The Rape of Lucretia

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is calling someone born on the island of Ireland - Irish, insensitive if it is factually correct?

By the same token, being born on one of the British Isles, it is therefore factually correct that they are British. So both British, and Irish. We all agree.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

For the same reason me calling MON a British woman, for being born in the UK, that identifies as Irish is.

If somebody tells you they 'identify' as British and you say their 'identity' is Irish that is offensive and vice versa.

Stating were they were BORN is not offensive and it cannot be, because it is a fact of geography (unless you can tell us that they were not born on an island called Ireland)

The type of person who takes offence at that will also take offence at having to look at the Irish language and demean anything 'Irish' because they are so insecure they think it weakens their identity.

buried

10-15 years

Great Pretani.

That's the islands proper name. Pretani.

If ya want to get right historically precious about it like