How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Never said it wasn't a fact but it no less a fact that MON could be described as a British woman who identifies as Irish.

How could i be insecure in my identity ? I was born in the 26 so my place of birth and nation of birth are the same. So where my parents and theirs before them.

Just was calling you out on your attempt to belittle another posters valid claim of British nationality and the flaws in your logic in your attempt to do so.

Another poster can identify as they wish. I don't have any issue with that. Please don't lie about me.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Another poster can identify as they wish. I don't have any issue with that. Please don't lie about me.

But they are British not Irish who identify as British. You were very deliberate in making that distinction.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

jh79, you can say whatever the hell you want and it is either right or it is wrong.

If I say someone is 'Irish because they were born in Ireland' then that is a fact all day long and no amount of not wanting to offend, no amount of hat doffing and no amount of ranting because you are insecure in your 'identity' will make it not a fact.

It isn't a fact. End of.

FrancieBrady and Matt Barrett both say it is a fact, and it is undeniable, yet they are not able to produce the relevant legislative back-up for this.

It is offensive to say that anyone born on this island is automatically Irish, it is also untrue, sectarian and bigoted.

Francie and Matt are entitled to their opinion, and to express it, the rest of us are entitled to consider that opinion racist, sectarian and bigoted. We are also able to draw conclusions based on the repeated maintenance of something as being fact when it is blatantly untrue and a lie.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't need to do that. I just refer you to the name of the island. It is a given that the people of an an island are from that island.

'Bigoted, 'sectarian' and 'racist' now. :D:D:D

So every Palestinian born in Israel is Israeli. Wow, just wow.

blanch152

Dytalus wrote: »

In much the same that freedom of religion allows freedom from religion, freedom of identity also allows freedom from identity. In modern language, nobody uses landmasses for identity anymore. They use heritage, nationality, ethnicity. I don't think anyone's categorically used landmasses in centuries.

If an employee is sent from Ireland to work in, say, Dubai for a period of time and his pregnant wife flies out to be with him. It's short, within a few months they're going to be home. While there, for whatever reason, the baby must be prematurely born. It's correct to say that baby was 'born in the UAE' but no sensible human being would say he was 'from the UAE'. And certainly nobody would say he was arabic. Except some people in this thread.

Nobody would say a child born to, for example, a Japanese mother on erasmus in Germany was German - save perhaps his father was German. Again, except
some people in this thread.

I'll concede Ireland has the whole partition thing muddying it up. Whether one considers Northern Ireland and Ireland separate nations, whether one thinks NI is an illegitimate state, and ignorance/bigotry all confuse the matter. But I have legitimately never heard someone use 'Irish' in a 'born on the island' manner outside of this thread. They've always referred (as people always do with this kind of language) to nationality, or heritage, or ethnicity.

100% correct.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

A few score pages on and we still have people who aren't from the North arguing about what we people from the North are or are not?

Trying to grossly simplify a broad mix of culture, history, genealogy, often highly intermingled, to suit your narrow definitions on either side is supremely unhelpful, and entirely disrespectful to the people of the North.

I am Irish, that is my right. I am not British. Downcow, for example, may well choose to state the opposite, and that is his right. A multitude of people exist in between, as dual Irish/British citizens.

This is our right as enshrined in the GFA, with both governments as cosignatory. The discomfort of one side or the other doesn't change that.

Ulster-Scots people have a different history and culture to that of the Irish people of the North. Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level. I have more in common, culturally, with my partner and her family, who hail from Meath, than I do with some Ulster-Scots friends. Those friends of mine would say they have more in common, culturally, with Scottish protestants than they do with me. How dare I tell them otherwise, or vice versa?

I'd ask that those of you insisting we are all British, or those of you insisting we are all Irish wind your necks in.

walshb

I'm happy as I am!

All part of the world now, anyway. Countries? Meh!

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

A few score pages on and we still have people who aren't from the North arguing about what we people from the North are or are not?

Trying to grossly simplify a broad mix of culture, history, genealogy, often highly intermingled, to suit your narrow definitions on either side is supremely unhelpful, and entirely disrespectful to the people of the North.

I am Irish, that is my right. I am not British. Downcow, for example, may well choose to state the opposite, and that is his right. A multitude of people exist in between, as dual Irish/British citizens.

This is our right as enshrined in the GFA, with both governments as cosignatory. The discomfort of one side or the other doesn't change that.

Ulster-Scots people have a different history and culture to that of the Irish people of the North. Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level. I have more in common, culturally, with my partner and her family, who hail from Meath, than I do with some Ulster-Scots friends. Those friends of mine would say they have more in common, culturally, with Scottish protestants than they do with me. How dare I tell them otherwise, or vice versa?

I'd ask that those of you insisting we are all British, or those of you insisting we are all Irish wind your necks in.

To be fair, there is nobody suggesting you are all British, except in satirical-like responses to the proponents of Irish geographical infallibility pointing out that such dogmatism means we are actually all British, North and South.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

blanch152 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

A few score pages on and we still have people who aren't from the North arguing about what we people from the North are or are not?

Trying to grossly simplify a broad mix of culture, history, genealogy, often highly intermingled, to suit your narrow definitions on either side is supremely unhelpful, and entirely disrespectful to the people of the North.

I am Irish, that is my right. I am not British. Downcow, for example, may well choose to state the opposite, and that is his right. A multitude of people exist in between, as dual Irish/British citizens.

This is our right as enshrined in the GFA, with both governments as cosignatory. The discomfort of one side or the other doesn't change that.

Ulster-Scots people have a different history and culture to that of the Irish people of the North. Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level. I have more in common, culturally, with my partner and her family, who hail from Meath, than I do with some Ulster-Scots friends. Those friends of mine would say they have more in common, culturally, with Scottish protestants than they do with me. How dare I tell them otherwise, or vice versa?

I'd ask that those of you insisting we are all British, or those of you insisting we are all Irish wind your necks in.

To be fair, there is nobody suggesting you are all British, except in satirical-like responses to the proponents of Irish geographical infallibility pointing out that such dogmatism means we are actually all British, North and South.

Some satirical certainly, others like our friend TRoL, acting as his name implies, certainly not. Others a bit in between, leaning towards wishful by my reading. Certainly no one to the extent of Francie on his insistence that we are all Irish, which I've already said I think is a load of b*llocks, despite being Irish myself.

James Brown

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

Can you explain why they are not British if that was there nation of Birth?

A: 'Where were you born?'
B: "Britain"
C: Wheres that?
"Ireland".
A: 'Okay so'

If you are born in Britain and there's a United Ireland, would you be like Tom Hanks in that airport movie where he's no country?

James Brown

10-15 years

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Some satirical certainly, others like our friend TRoL, acting as his name implies, certainly not. Others a bit in between, leaning towards wishful by my reading. Certainly no one to the extent of Francie on his insistence that we are all Irish, which I've already said I think is a load of b*llocks, despite being Irish myself.

How are you Irish?

jh79

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A: 'Where were you born?'
B: "Britain"
C: Wheres that?
"Ireland".
A: 'Okay so'

If you are born in Britain and there's a United Ireland, would you be like Tom Hanks in that airport movie where he's no country?

I'd imagine in that case the person would say NI.

Look your nation of Birth doesn't change unless you believe in reincarnation.

A person born in Belfast today will always have been born in the UK.

A UI isn't gonna be retrospective.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair, there is nobody suggesting you are all British, except in satirical-like responses to the proponents of Irish geographical infallibility pointing out that such dogmatism means we are actually all British, North and South.

Now it's 'dogma' to have the temerity to suggest that those born on an island are distinct in name from those born on the next island. It's just geography blanch.

Is it that you think I might be suggesting we are better than the British? I am not doing that either so relax your wee self there.

I will guarantee you this, if we had a competition asking the other people of the world what they called the people of the island of Ireland, I would win hands down.

James Brown

10-15 years

jh79 wrote: »

I'd imagine in that case the person would say NI.

Look your nation of Birth doesn't change unless you believe in reincarnation.

A person born in Belfast today will always have been born in the UK.

A UI isn't gonna be retrospective.

Where is Belfast?
You can be both no? Welsh and British, Irish and British, Scottish and British? I don't know anyone who would claim to be British and not relate it to the country they were born in. It's a practical geographical fact. My brother was born in Bristol. He's Irish, but could claim Britishness, however, he was born in England.

FrancieBrady

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Where is Belfast?
You can be both no? Welsh and British, Irish and British, Scottish and British? I don't know anyone who would claim to be British and not relate it to the country they were born in. It's a practical geographical fact. My brother was born in Bristol. He's Irish, but could claim Britishness, however, he was born in England.

It is remarkable how partitionist rhetoric is mirroring belligerent Unionist rhetoric.

If this close alignment is maintained in a UI campaign I think they are both doomed.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Some satirical certainly, others like our friend TRoL, acting as his name implies, certainly not. Others a bit in between, leaning towards wishful by my reading. Certainly no one to the extent of Francie on his insistence that we are all Irish, which I've already said I think is a load of b*llocks, despite being Irish myself.

How are you Irish?

My culture, my history and my birthplace.

The same could be offered as an answer from someone of an Ulster Scots background as to why they're British.

jh79

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Where is Belfast?
You can be both no? Welsh and British, Irish and British, Scottish and British? I don't know anyone who would claim to be British and not relate it to the country they were born in. It's a practical geographical fact. My brother was born in Bristol. He's Irish, but could claim Britishness, however, he was born in England.

Not me saying they can't be both. Francie said they are Irish who identify as British rather than just British ignoring the fact a child born in Belfast is born in the UK.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My culture, my history and my birthplace.

The same could be offered as an answer from someone of an Ulster Scots background as to why they're British.

That's because you 'identify' as 'Irish'.
Irish as an identity is a different thing to 'Irish' as of place of birth.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Not me saying they can't be both. Francie said they are Irish who identify as British rather than just British ignoring the fact a child born in Belfast is born in the UK.

This has gotten to idiotic levels now.

Is Belfast on the island of Ireland or not?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is remarkable how partitionist rhetoric is mirroring belligerent Unionist rhetoric.

If this close alignment is maintained in a UI campaign I think they are both doomed.

If that includes me, remember i am only slightly more partitionists than you. We both voted to recognise partition as legitimate and that NI is part of the UK.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

If that includes me, remember i am only slightly more partitionists than you. We both voted to recognise partition as legitimate and that NI is part of the UK.

Cling on to anything you can there jh79, cling on.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This has gotten to idiotic levels now.

Is Belfast on the island of Ireland or not?

Nationality is place of birth (Ireland) and/or nation of birth(UK).

Simple really.

Not so simple if it kills you to admit that a British person can be born on the island of ireland. Why is that?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Nationality is place of birth (Ireland) and/or nation of birth(UK).

Simple really.

Not so simple if it kills you to admit that a British person can be born on the island of ireland. Why is that?

Identity can be changed, either way, because it is something you choose.
Your place of birth can't

RobMc59

10-15 years

Fionn1952 wrote: »

A few score pages on and we still have people who aren't from the North arguing about what we people from the North are or are not?

Trying to grossly simplify a broad mix of culture, history, genealogy, often highly intermingled, to suit your narrow definitions on either side is supremely unhelpful, and entirely disrespectful to the people of the North.

I am Irish, that is my right. I am not British. Downcow, for example, may well choose to state the opposite, and that is his right. A multitude of people exist in between, as dual Irish/British citizens.

This is our right as enshrined in the GFA, with both governments as cosignatory. The discomfort of one side or the other doesn't change that.

Ulster-Scots people have a different history and culture to that of the Irish people of the North. Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level. I have more in common, culturally, with my partner and her family, who hail from Meath, than I do with some Ulster-Scots friends. Those friends of mine would say they have more in common, culturally, with Scottish protestants than they do with me. How dare I tell them otherwise, or vice versa?

I'd ask that those of you insisting we are all British, or those of you insisting we are all Irish wind your necks in.

I could have sworn you said your grandfather was an Ulster unionist which must surely mean you possibility have a fair bit of Ulster Scot/British in your DNA?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Identity can be changed, either way, because it is something you choose.
Your place of birth can't

The nation you were born in doesn't change either. If a UI occurs in 10 years time that 10 year old would still of been born in the UK.

You don't choose the nation you were born in either.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

A few score pages on and we still have people who aren't from the North arguing about what we people from the North are or are not?

Trying to grossly simplify a broad mix of culture, history, genealogy, often highly intermingled, to suit your narrow definitions on either side is supremely unhelpful, and entirely disrespectful to the people of the North.

I am Irish, that is my right. I am not British. Downcow, for example, may well choose to state the opposite, and that is his right. A multitude of people exist in between, as dual Irish/British citizens.

This is our right as enshrined in the GFA, with both governments as cosignatory. The discomfort of one side or the other doesn't change that.

Ulster-Scots people have a different history and culture to that of the Irish people of the North. Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level. I have more in common, culturally, with my partner and her family, who hail from Meath, than I do with some Ulster-Scots friends. Those friends of mine would say they have more in common, culturally, with Scottish protestants than they do with me. How dare I tell them otherwise, or vice versa?

I'd ask that those of you insisting we are all British, or those of you insisting we are all Irish wind your necks in.

I could have sworn you said your grandfather was an Ulster unionist which must surely mean you possibility have a fair bit of Ulster Scot/British in your DNA?

"Many of us have a mixture of both at some point in our past. Which of those we identify with, which of those we are raised in culturally and which of those we choose to raise our children in are our own affair, on a personal and familial level."

Already covered in my post, Rob. Your, 'gotcha' moment falls sadly flat.

James Brown

10-15 years

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My culture, my history and my birthplace.

The same could be offered as an answer from someone of an Ulster Scots background as to why they're British.

Your birthplace. Agreed. Ulster is a Province in Ireland not France or Egypt.

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I could have sworn you said your grandfather was an Ulster unionist which must surely mean you possibility have a fair bit of Ulster Scot/British in your DNA?

Not all people from the north are derived from Scottish people who sold out their own for the favours of an English monarch to steal land from the Irish or went on to commit treason to the English crown to support a Dutch King funded in part by the then Pope.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My culture, my history and my birthplace.

The same could be offered as an answer from someone of an Ulster Scots background as to why they're British.

Your birthplace. Agreed. Ulster is a Province in Ireland not France or Egypt.

My birthplace, as you can well read, is one of the factors in what makes me Irish. Despite your attempts to grossly simplify that down, you MAY have noticed that there was a little dispute around that particular part of Ulster.

Someone born in the UK, to British parents, brought up with British culture....I'd call them British.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Matt Barrett wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

I could have sworn you said your grandfather was an Ulster unionist which must surely mean you possibility have a fair bit of Ulster Scot/British in your DNA?

Not all people from the north are derived from Scottish people who sold out their own for the favours of an English monarch to steal land from the Irish or went on to commit treason to the English crown to support a Dutch King funded in part by the then Pope.

Unfortunately, in the case of one of my grandparents descendants, that's pretty much exactly where they derived from. It caused more problems than you can imagine when he had the audacity to convert to Catholicism and marry one of them. I never had the pleasure to meet a great deal of that side of the family, though fortunately a small few were more open-minded than the majority.