How long before Irish reunification?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't deny he was in the IRA did I? I must have missed that.

I said the evidence suggests he was killed in 'disputed circumstances'.

The circumstances of his killing are immaterial. It doesn't matter whether he was shot in cold blood, completely by accident, or in justifiable circumstances.

I am only asking you should he be classified as a civilian or not.

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

It's a single case. Why would you automatically assume it's replicated over thousands? It's...it's not even the beginnings of a pattern.

And "killed on active service" means he was serving in the IRA. Not necessarily while actively on a mission. Militaries (which the IRA styled itself as) the world over use "active service" to mean "in a war as a member of the armed forces" and KIA means "killed by the enemy". Soldiers resting in an FOB who get mortared are still killed while on active service, even if all they were doing at the time was watching TV.

Surely it'd be in the IRA's interest to disavow his being on a mission - make the British look like bad guys? I can't find any evidence, anywhere, that he was taking aim at anybody. That's a curiously specific piece of information. The most I can find is "disputed circumstances".

And it certainly wouldn't bore me. I enjoy learning info, so if you have other neighbours with deaths you think CAIN does not report accurately, I'd like to hear them.

Ideally with hard evidence but I'll take what I can.

I have never known the IRA to say Killed on Active Service if their member was not in the process of engaging the enemy. You are stretching it a bit to suggest the Cain report fits with the IRA report 'out walking near his home' v 'on active service'

I told you i just checked 3 neighbours and they were all inaccurate - thats a fair pattern.

you want the evidence on my other neighbours. Well i have considered the one that was prominent in the IRA and some of his family still deny that so I am not going to post that one out of courtesy to them.
But heres the third one
William Hennan
Cain says Civillian shot at his home. He is in fact an ex member of the security forces, and whilst i consider his murder to be purely sectarian, many posters on here have said that he was clearly killed because he had been in the security forces.
So even you disregard the case in which i want to protect the family by only dealing with the two case that are common knowledge and clearly evidenced, then two out of three aint bad.
So how about accepting that Cain is fairly inaccurate and is also open to interpretation and spin

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The circumstances of his killing are immaterial. It doesn't matter whether he was shot in cold blood, completely by accident, or in justifiable circumstances.

I am only asking you should he be classified as a civilian or not.

Winning the sickening 'competition' about deaths in the conflict/war doesn't interest me blanch.

downcow has accepted the British version of that death and we KNOW that they can't be trusted in any account of what happened. I was just keeping him honest. The killing happened in 'disputed circumstances'.

downcow

Do you know does Cain breakdown how many 'security forces' were on duty at the time of their murder? It would be a very interesting statistic but i guess one that doesn't fit with the authors agenda

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Winning the sickening 'competition' about deaths in the conflict/war doesn't interest me blanch.

There are an awful lot of posts from you on a subject that doesn't interest you, but always when you reach a question you are unwilling/unable to answer, you either resort to personal insults (as in the second half of your post which I refuse to quote) or labelling of the 'Other' (as in partitionists or sickening competition) or you back away or change the subject.

Usually, as in this case, the reason you are unwilling/unable to answer the particular question is that it would expose one of the many cognitive dissonances at the heart of the republican argument.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of posts from you on a subject that doesn't interest you, but always when you reach a question you are unwilling/unable to answer, you either resort to personal insults (as in the second half of your post which I refuse to quote) or labelling of the 'Other' (as in partitionists or sickening competition) or you back away or change the subject.

Personal attack? Are we getting a tad oversensitive here?

I have consistently called this 'competition' over who killed what - sickening and the exploitation of victims.
SF and the IRA can answer for themselves tbh.

Dytalus

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Do you know does Cain breakdown how many 'security forces' were on duty at the time of their murder? It would be a very interesting statistic but i guess one that doesn't fit with the authors agenda

"Authors agenda". Jesus wept.

Using the original incomplete database, Official RUC Statistics and Malcolm Sutton's An Index Of Deaths From The Conflict in Ireland we began compiled a new list of deaths. To verify the accuracy of information and to fill in missing data, a number of cross checks were carried out using the following sources: Irish Information Agenda, INLA : Deadly Divisions by Jack Holland and Henry McDonald, The Red Hand by Steve Bruce, Northern Ireland: A Political Directory by Flackes and Elliott and Ballymurphy and the Irish War by Ciaran de Baroid. The database at this stage provided information on the date of the death, name of victim, age, gender, cause of death, town of incident, religious and political affiliation, occupation, organisation responsible for the death and finally where possible a full address of where the death occurred

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/fay.htm

The database of deaths used on CAIN is a direct transfer of statements and reported deaths from the Sutton Index of Deaths and the Official RUC statistics. Additional sources from across the spectrum of the conflict are used to flesh out the data. CAIN does not gather its own information - it uses that provided by others, cross checking to verify accuracy where possible.

It's not one guy with an agenda. CAIN is managed by Ulster University, and in 1998 was directly funded by the Department of Education for Northern Ireland. It is very widely used as a source in all sorts of academic research because it acts as a central database for information gathered from the many, many sources which covered the Troubles.

William Hennan
Cain says Civillian shot at his home. He is in fact an ex member of the security forces, and whilst i consider his murder to be purely sectarian, many posters on here have said that he was clearly killed because he had been in the security forces.
So even you disregard the case in which i want to protect the family by only dealing with the two case that are common knowledge and clearly evidenced, then two out of three aint bad.

Protecting the family is kind of you. That's fair enough.

But there is no William Hennan in the CAIN index. The closest name I can find is Charles Henning, who was an active member of the UDR but was killed by the IRA while at a food market (off-duty). So much for "clearly evidenced".

Perhaps you misspelled his name?

blanch152 wrote:

If he was claimed as an active Volunteer by the IRA, he was hardly a citizen?

I don't see Francie claiming he was a civilian (point of order, one can be a citizen and a member of a paramilitary at the same time. The distinction between being a civilian and a citizen is important to make when discussing these topics. I'm just nitpicking here because I have little better to do.)

For the record, Paul Magorrian is recorded on CAIN as being a member of the IRA and not a civilian.

EDIT: sorry, downcow. I missed the second half of your post. I'll take a look at the CAIN site and see if you can list by off or on duty. I know you can see it in individual listings (as above with Charles Henning), but I don't know if it's recorded in a table format. Likewise I do not know if it lists IRA members by the circumstances of their deaths. A lot of deaths during the Troubles have one side saying one thing, and the other side saying something else. It may not have been possible to get enough data.

RobMc59

10-15 years

How many ira terrorists were dealt with by British soldiers after inside information from people like Gerry Adams as suggested here:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/state-papers-gerry-adams-set-up-loughgall-ira-gang-for-ambush-36442568.html

downcow

Dytalus wrote: »

"Authors agenda". Jesus wept.


https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/fay.htm

The database of deaths used on CAIN is a direct transfer of statements and reported deaths from the Sutton Index of Deaths and the Official RUC statistics. Additional sources from across the spectrum of the conflict are used to flesh out the data. CAIN does not gather its own information - it uses that provided by others, cross checking to verify accuracy where possible.

It's not one guy with an agenda. CAIN is managed by Ulster University, and in 1998 was directly funded by the Department of Education for Northern Ireland. It is very widely used as a source in all sorts of academic research because it acts as a central database for information gathered from the many, many sources which covered the Troubles.


Protecting the family is kind of you. That's fair enough.

But there is no William Hennan in the CAIN index. The closest name I can find is Charles Henning, who was an active member of the UDR but was killed by the IRA while at a food market (off-duty). So much for "clearly evidenced".

Perhaps you misspelled his name?


I don't see Francie claiming he was a civilian (point of order, one can be a citizen and a member of a paramilitary at the same time. The distinction between being a civilian and a citizen is important to make when discussing these topics. I'm just nitpicking here because I have little better to do.)

For the record, Paul Magorrian is recorded on CAIN as being a member of the IRA and not a civilian.

EDIT: sorry, downcow. I missed the second half of your post. I'll take a look at the CAIN site and see if you can list by off or on duty. I know you can see it in individual listings (as above with Charles Henning), but I don't know if it's recorded in a table format. Likewise I do not know if it lists IRA members by the circumstances of their deaths. A lot of deaths during the Troubles have one side saying one thing, and the other side saying something else. It may not have been possible to get enough data.

Apologies I misspelt his surname Heenan https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/ira-victim-s-son-asks-sinn-fein-mp-why-won-t-you-condemn-my-dad-s-murder-1-8913188/amp

James Brown

10-15 years

What part will the IRA play in unification?

Answer:

A) Maria Cahill
Jean McConville
C) Shergar

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What part will the IRA play in unification?

Answer:

A) Maria Cahill
Jean McConville
C) Shergar

Couple of options for that answer:

(a) Set it back by 50 years
(b) Set it back by 100 years
(c) Ensure if will never happen

At the moment, we know it will be at least (a). Not long before we will have passed (a) and be wondering if it will be (b).

James Brown

10-15 years

blanch152 wrote: »

Couple of options for that answer:

(a) Set it back by 50 years
(b) Set it back by 100 years
(c) Ensure if will never happen

At the moment, we know it will be at least (a). Not long before we will have passed (a) and be wondering if it will be (b).

I don't believe they are currently active blanch. Would we not be better served discussing the IRA over in a history forum rather than regarding the future of NI and a UI? How often does Thatcher and the coal miners strike come up in the Brexit thread I wonder.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Not really sure those conversations will be part of any discussions coming up into UI ref. Well, unless by those attempting to derail it.
Irish government isn’t in any way responsible for IRA actions in NI or UK, British government can’t say the same but neither approach serves much purpose moving forward in that situation when it comes.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Not really sure those conversations will be part of any discussions coming up into UI ref. Well, unless by those attempting to derail it.
Irish government isn’t in any way responsible for IRA actions in NI or UK, British government can’t say the same but neither approach serves much purpose moving forward in that situation when it comes.

It is the age old sickening competition to win the higher moral ground.

Which never existed in any war or conflict ever.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Pretty much this. She will be remembered well in time. For only this and Here at least

https://twitter.com/eimead/status/1168912052112580609?s=21

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Dytalus wrote: »

"Authors agenda". Jesus wept.


https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/fay.htm

The database of deaths used on CAIN is a direct transfer of statements and reported deaths from the Sutton Index of Deaths and the Official RUC statistics. Additional sources from across the spectrum of the conflict are used to flesh out the data. CAIN does not gather its own information - it uses that provided by others, cross checking to verify accuracy where possible.

It's not one guy with an agenda. CAIN is managed by Ulster University, and in 1998 was directly funded by the Department of Education for Northern Ireland. It is very widely used as a source in all sorts of academic research because it acts as a central database for information gathered from the many, many sources which covered the Troubles.


Protecting the family is kind of you. That's fair enough.

But there is no William Hennan in the CAIN index. The closest name I can find is Charles Henning, who was an active member of the UDR but was killed by the IRA while at a food market (off-duty). So much for "clearly evidenced".

Perhaps you misspelled his name?


I don't see Francie claiming he was a civilian (point of order, one can be a citizen and a member of a paramilitary at the same time. The distinction between being a civilian and a citizen is important to make when discussing these topics. I'm just nitpicking here because I have little better to do.)

For the record, Paul Magorrian is recorded on CAIN as being a member of the IRA and not a civilian.

EDIT: sorry, downcow. I missed the second half of your post. I'll take a look at the CAIN site and see if you can list by off or on duty. I know you can see it in individual listings (as above with Charles Henning), but I don't know if it's recorded in a table format. Likewise I do not know if it lists IRA members by the circumstances of their deaths. A lot of deaths during the Troubles have one side saying one thing, and the other side saying something else. It may not have been possible to get enough data.

Apologies I misspelt his surname Heenan https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/ira-victim-s-son-asks-sinn-fein-mp-why-won-t-you-condemn-my-dad-s-murder-1-8913188/amp

The very article you linked states that William Heenan was not a member of the security forces, Downcow.

"William Heenan was a 51-year-old digger driver who lived with his family in the Leitrim area. The IRA later falsely claimed he was serving member of the security forces."

According to his son, again from your own link;
"Usually they come out with a line about people who were murdered by republicans as having been ‘part of the war’ and nonsense like that, but my father was a Protestant man who had no connection with the security forces, so it seems they don’t know how to handle that uncomfortable truth."

Seems like CAIN were correct on this one, and your own information incorrect.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Pretty much this. She will be remembered well in time. For only this and Here at least

https://twitter.com/eimead/status/1168912052112580609?s=21

Had it been Arlene's decision alone I think we'd be in a different place. She had the smarts to start back pedaling immediately after the UK yes vote. But she is being controlled by the backroom DUP, of that there is no doubt. (agreeing a deal on the Irish Language and getting slapped back into line another case in point)

She will take the fall in history though.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The very article you linked states that William Heenan was not a member of the security forces, Downcow.

"William Heenan was a 51-year-old digger driver who lived with his family in the Leitrim area. The IRA later falsely claimed he was serving member of the security forces."

According to his son, again from your own link;
"Usually they come out with a line about people who were murdered by republicans as having been ‘part of the war’ and nonsense like that, but my father was a Protestant man who had no connection with the security forces, so it seems they don’t know how to handle that uncomfortable truth."

Seems like CAIN were correct on this one, and your own information incorrect.

I didn’t say he was a serving member. I said ex member There are plenty of people on here who no doubt are reading this who can confirm he was a member as they made that excuse to suggest it was not sectarian. But I am telling he was a member and if I had time I would google it for you.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Pretty much this. She will be remembered well in time. For only this and Here at least

https://twitter.com/eimead/status/1168912052112580609?s=21

The British will rue the day they got in to bed with the DUP and got up with severe leprosy, with entire limbs looking like they'll fall off.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The British will rue the day they got in to bed with the DUP and got up with severe leprosy, with entire limbs looking like they'll fall off.

We’re about to see DUP vanquished back to irrelevance. It’s glorious( to borrow a term) Hopefully Alliance can truly step up.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The British will rue the day they got in to bed with the DUP and got up with severe leprosy, with entire limbs looking like they'll fall off.

Following my recent cross Ireland road trip Tom,it was obvious the heart of Unionism beats strongly there.:cool:

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The very article you linked states that William Heenan was not a member of the security forces, Downcow.

"William Heenan was a 51-year-old digger driver who lived with his family in the Leitrim area. The IRA later falsely claimed he was serving member of the security forces."

According to his son, again from your own link;
"Usually they come out with a line about people who were murdered by republicans as having been ‘part of the war’ and nonsense like that, but my father was a Protestant man who had no connection with the security forces, so it seems they don’t know how to handle that uncomfortable truth."

Seems like CAIN were correct on this one, and your own information incorrect.

I didn’t say he was a serving member. I said ex member There are plenty of people on here who no doubt are reading this who can confirm he was a member as they made that excuse to suggest it was not sectarian. But I am telling he was a member and if I had time I would google it for you.

I'll take his son's word over yours, thanks.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

United Ireland now being discussed in the House of Commons

Right now.

But of course the conversation isn’t happening.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Following my recent cross Ireland road trip Tom,it was obvious the heart of Unionism beats strongly there.:cool:

So you’ve realized it is only one Ireland. That’s progress.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Following my recent cross Ireland road trip Tom,it was obvious the heart of Unionism beats strongly there.:cool:

Which part? The DUP's 17th Century brand of Unionism is a busted flush.

JohnnyFlash

All it takes this evening is one SF vote. Griffith actually died for such a choice.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Which part? The DUP's 17th Century brand of Unionism is a busted flush.

Right across British Ulster Tom,there are many,even in parts of Ireland the fascination with the UK past and present(and not in a negative way)is astonishing.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll take his son's word over yours, thanks.

Do you want me to search for a quote of his son saying he was an ex member of the security forces. His son is rightly very proud of the fact so I guess I can find one.

James Brown

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Right across British Ulster Tom,there are many,even in parts of Ireland the fascination with the UK past and present(and not in a negative way)is astonishing.

We're only interested in the British fascination with holding part of our province hostage.
I'd suggest English people might feel more at ease in the Republic away from all the triumphalism over a centuries old battle, (against an English king) and bowler hats.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll take his son's word over yours, thanks.

You know you shouldn’t doubt me. I am a great believer in sticking to facts. And when you don’t have proof you should state that’s it’s just your belief.

Anyhow I think you will find Billy here , second from bottom - and proud his son should be. I’ll look forward to your acknowledgment. Thanks in advance.
And going forward maybe people should not take CAIN as the factual document they would like you to believe it is.
http://www.policerollofhonour.org.uk/forces/n_ireland/usc/usc_roll.htm