How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

How did "your people"end up in my country in the first place?

Maybe when your guys are over in the states for st paddys day you could tell the white people there to go back home or accept native american rule - same thing , just the numbers are a wee bit different - and of course they are recent arrivals compared to us ulster scots in NI

downcow

This is going to be intriguing to watch develop https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51612028

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Maybe when your guys are over in the states for st paddys day you could tell the white people there to go back home or accept native american rule - same thing , just the numbers are a wee bit different - and of course they are recent arrivals compared to us ulster scots in NI

If the native Americans get back into the majority what do you think will happen? Do you think they will allow the whites to force them onto reservations and to ignore the deprivation, isolation and denying of rights to their own people?

James Brown

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Maybe when your guys are over in the states for st paddys day you could tell the white people there to go back home or accept native american rule - same thing , just the numbers are a wee bit different - and of course they are recent arrivals compared to us ulster scots in NI

You'll be treated like your fellow Irishmen don't you worry. I can see why you might not relish the idea of a united Ireland but you won't be treated like the Catholics/nationalists were.

downcow

Bowie wrote: »

You'll be treated like your fellow Irishmen don't you worry. I can see why you might not relish the idea of a united Ireland but you won't be treated like the Catholics/nationalists were.

There you go. you can't even accept that i am not an irishman. You are living in a fantasy

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

a very large section of my people will begin a separatist campaign for independence...

The best you could hope for is a degree of autonomy from Dublin with maybe a consultative role for a British minister. Not a hope in hell you will be allowed to re-partition the nation so you can create another mini version of your failed project.

James Brown

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

There you go. you can't even accept that i am not an irishman. You are living in a fantasy

You are living in Ireland.
If you are born on Ireland you're Irish, free to call yourself what you like and I'll recognise you as whatever that may be, English, British or whatever, but you are Irish in my eyes too. There's a Chinese family run a takeaway near me. Been there as long as I can recall. They'd be Irish in my eyes, but Chinese too. It's all cool.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is going to be intriguing to watch develop https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51612028

Yes Brexit the gift that keeps on giving...impetuous to a UI.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Tell that to those in Catalonia or Basque that because a majority of Spain don't recognise their desire for independence that they should just go away

I'm not talking to a Catalan or a Basque person. I'm talking to someone who is going to feel affronted by a democratic decision on this island made by the people of this island.

You're not against a democratic decision by the people are you?

Your whataboutery (as always) speaks volumes.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Bowie wrote: »

You are living in Ireland.
If you are born on Ireland you're Irish, free to call yourself what you like and I'll recognise you as whatever that may be, English, British or whatever, but you are Irish in my eyes too. There's a Chinese family run a takeaway near me. Been there as long as I can recall. They'd be Irish in my eyes, but Chinese too. It's all cool.

That`s your view of things.I see him as British,born in Northern Ireland ,the same as me who is English. But we`re both British.

RobMc59

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm not talking to a Catalan or a Basque person. I'm talking to someone who is going to feel affronted by a democratic decision on this island made by the people of this island.

You're not against a democratic decision by the people are you?

Your whataboutery (as always) speaks volumes.

Has there been a democratic vote on something or are you talking about a hypothetical vote?

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

Maybe when your guys are over in the states for st paddys day you could tell the white people there to go back home or accept native american rule - same thing , just the numbers are a wee bit different - and of course they are recent arrivals compared to us ulster scots in NI

So are you going to answer my question? When did "your people"first come to my country?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Has there been a democratic vote on something or are you talking about a hypothetical vote?

I'm clearly talking to a hypothetical Catalan so... good Christ!

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The best you could hope for is a degree of autonomy from Dublin with maybe a consultative role for a British minister. Not a hope in hell you will be allowed to re-partition the nation so you can create another mini version of your failed project.

Revisionist. It wasnt my people portioned the island. It was your little 26 county separatists that forced partition

downcow

Bowie wrote: »

You are living in Ireland.
If you are born on Ireland you're Irish, free to call yourself what you like and I'll recognise you as whatever that may be, English, British or whatever, but you are Irish in my eyes too. There's a Chinese family run a takeaway near me. Been there as long as I can recall. They'd be Irish in my eyes, but Chinese too. It's all cool.

Bowie. You continue with this Devine right that your views are the only views. Try telling most shinners that were born in ni that the are northern Irish and wait for the reaction. Unlike you I would not force them to be called northern Irish just because they were born in Northern Ireland. Nor I wouldn’t call Palestinians isrealies just because the were born in Israel It’s because of people like you that a yo can never happen

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm not talking to a Catalan or a Basque person. I'm talking to someone who is going to feel affronted by a democratic decision on this island made by the people of this island.

You're not against a democratic decision by the people are you?

Your whataboutery (as always) speaks volumes.

Bonnie. I just don’t understand why you want Ireland and my people to be a special case with less rights.
You suggest I should quietly accept any future democratic descision and not work against it yet you would not place that on any other people. I guess would would support the Scots in working to defeat their last democratic decision, the nationalists in ni, the remainders, the Catalans, etc etc. But not the prods in ni. Bonnie this is the definition of sectarian prejudice. But sure you guys couldn’t be sectarian lol

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

So are you going to answer my question? When did "your people"first come to my country?

My history isn’t wonderful so maybe you can correct if necessary (serious request).
It’s complicated lol.
The first records of our arrival seem to be about 325BC. Many goings and comings over next two millennia. Hers s wee quote I got of you guys trying to drive us out 400 years ago
“ In 1641 the Irish launched a rebellion against the Protestant population of Ireland. The Ulster-Scots were in a hopeless position, having been gradually disarmed by the English to prevent them from aiding their Covenanter kin in Scotland against England. The Catholic clergy declared all Protestants to be devils and should therefore be destroyed. The outnumbered Ulster-Scots Presbyterians, including women and children suffered all manner of cruelties as they were murdered by the Catholic Irish hordes. Thousands of Protestants were slaughtered in this uprising”

Safe to say Ulster has been our territory a wee bit longer that Americans, Australians, nz, etc etc.
So explain to me, if your motive is not sectarianism then why would you not put your energies into the dozens of other countries where pepper arrived centuries later?? Do you think Australians whose families arrived in last couple of centuries should leave and give the land back? A serious question

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. I just don’t understand why you want Ireland and my people to be a special case with less rights.
You suggest I should quietly accept any future democratic descision and not work against it yet you would not place that on any other people. I guess would would support the Scots in working to defeat their last democratic decision, the nationalists in ni, the remainders, the Catalans, etc etc. But not the prods in ni. Bonnie this is the definition of sectarian prejudice. But sure you guys couldn’t be sectarian lol

The GFA allows you to work against a UI. You are part of the UK now because of the GFA.

If a majority vote for unity then that is what will happen and like those living here now on this island you will have to accept that. Nothing at all to stop you trying to get a majority decision after that to rejoin the UK.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA allows you to work against a UI. You are part of the UK now because of the GFA.

If a majority vote for unity then that is what will happen and like those living here now on this island you will have to accept that. Nothing at all to stop you trying to get a majority decision after that to rejoin the UK.

Agree 100% except that I don't think everyone living in NI currently accepts that they are part of the UK and of course, much as you would like to be able to control my aspirations - in the unlikely event of a UI we will be completely within our rights to agitate and encourage for any outcome we aspire to, and if that happens to be following other stateless people to demand autonomy then surely you would not deprive us of that fight

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Agree 100% except that I don't think everyone living in NI currently accepts that they are part of the UK and of course, much as you would like to be able to control my aspirations - in the unlikely event of a UI we will be completely within our rights to agitate and encourage for any outcome we aspire to, and if that happens to be following other stateless people to demand autonomy then surely you would not deprive us of that fight

The vast majority have accepted your 'majority right' to remain in the UK for now. You cannot deny this simple reality and fulfillment of the terms of the GFA. It is simply uncontestable.

If a majority vote the other way...for a UI - then as democrats Unionists will accept that too and will retain the right to demonstrate democratically against it and to try and overturn it, democratically.

If you wish to behave as a minority of 'dissidents' are behaving now, that is your decision, but it is not your 'right'.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA allows you to work against a UI. You are part of the UK now because of the GFA.

If a majority vote for unity then that is what will happen and like those living here now on this island you will have to accept that. Nothing at all to stop you trying to get a majority decision after that to rejoin the UK.

Northern Ireland has always been part of the UK for hundreds of years prior to the GFA-Ireland left the union and became a new country remember.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

You are living in Ireland.
If you are born on Ireland you're Irish, free to call yourself what you like and I'll recognise you as whatever that may be, English, British or whatever, but you are Irish in my eyes too. There's a Chinese family run a takeaway near me. Been there as long as I can recall. They'd be Irish in my eyes, but Chinese too. It's all cool.

If I was to say that every person born a male remains a male in my eyes, no matter what choices they make about gender in their life, at the very least I would be condemned as insensitive, more likely considered as someone out of touch, backward, reactionary, right-wing conservative, traditional and out of date.

Ditto with your views on nationality and identity.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Northern Ireland has always been part of the UK for hundreds of years prior to the GFA-Ireland left the union and became a new country remember.

We contested that constitutionally up until the GFA. Therefore we didn't recognise/accept the legitimacy of British control until the GFA.
Since then the majority of this island are prepared to accept the majority decision in northern Ireland to remain a part of the UK.

Ikozma

Can't see it happening for years myself, if ever

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The vast majority have accepted your 'majority right' to remain in the UK for now. You cannot deny this simple reality and fulfillment of the terms of the GFA. It is simply uncontestable.

If a majority vote the other way...for a UI - then as democrats Unionists will accept that too and will retain the right to demonstrate democratically against it and to try and overturn it, democratically.

If you wish to behave as a minority of 'dissidents' are behaving now, that is your decision, but it is not your 'right'.

In the hypothetical consideration of a united Ireland, one of the many planks to a vote will be a right of the people of Northern Ireland to revisit the decision after a time. That will have to be part of the architecture so that the initial decision gets over the line.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

In the hypothetical consideration of a united Ireland, one of the many planks to a vote will be a right of the people of Northern Ireland to revisit the decision after a time. That will have to be part of the architecture so that the initial decision gets over the line.

No problem with that.

Franciebrady wrote:

If a majority vote the other way...for a UI - then as democrats Unionists will accept that too and will retain the right to demonstrate democratically against it and to try and overturn it, democratically.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We contested that constitutionally up until the GFA. Therefore we didn't recognise/accept the legitimacy of British control until the GFA.
Since then the majority of this island are prepared to accept the majority decision in northern Ireland to remain a part of the UK.

I don't agree with many things you say francie,this,along with your attitude to SF and its alleged associations being examples and my opinion is unlikely to change,as is yours.
Until such times the people of NI want a UI vote you'll have to get on with it,its nothing to do with what the rest of Ireland are willing to accept.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't agree with many things you say francie,this,along with your attitude to SF and its alleged associations being examples and my opinion is unlikely to change,as is yours.
Until such times the people of NI want a UI vote you'll have to get on with it,its nothing to do with what the rest of Ireland are willing to accept.

Don't worry about me Rob. I am getting 'on with it' the best.

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

My history isn’t wonderful so maybe you can correct if necessary (serious request).
It’s complicated lol.
The first records of our arrival seem to be about 325BC. Many goings and comings over next two millennia. Hers s wee quote I got of you guys trying to drive us out 400 years ago
“ In 1641 the Irish launched a rebellion against the Protestant population of Ireland. The Ulster-Scots were in a hopeless position, having been gradually disarmed by the English to prevent them from aiding their Covenanter kin in Scotland against England. The Catholic clergy declared all Protestants to be devils and should therefore be destroyed. The outnumbered Ulster-Scots Presbyterians, including women and children suffered all manner of cruelties as they were murdered by the Catholic Irish hordes. Thousands of Protestants were slaughtered in this uprising”

Safe to say Ulster has been our territory a wee bit longer that Americans, Australians, nz, etc etc.
So explain to me, if your motive is not sectarianism then why would you not put your energies into the dozens of other countries where pepper arrived centuries later?? Do you think Australians whose families arrived in last couple of centuries should leave and give the land back? A serious question

I was thinking more along these lines

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't worry about me Rob. I am getting 'on with it' the best.

I know you're well able to stick up for yourself as you're always getting into an argument with someone over one controversial subject or another