How long before Irish reunification?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Thankfully, he won't be able to vote in a referendum even if he moved here. Refs are for Irish citizens only

I was thinking he might move North. But what of it, his bizarre ideas of this island can stay on the mainland.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Praetorian wrote: »

I think a United Ireland won't happen for a very long time, or at least not in the time scales mentioned in the poll.

I believe practically all unionists would vote to remain part of the UK.

The one point I think a lot of people don't consider is that quite a few Catholics or "nationalists" who would also vote to remain as part of the UK. I know some people who would openly admit this and I know a few who would vote this way but keep it quite.

Grand. So there's no danger if a UI. Why not have the poll and try and convince people of the benefits of a UI. Can hardly hurt eh?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

If I was Irish and living in Dublin there is no way I would want to introduce a situation where I would be responsible for .5 million victims who felt stateless, and had been used to free healthcare etc etc , were getting £billions in subventions, and were agitating against my country for their own autonomy,
It would be sheer madness for any right thinking southerner

Any right thinking southerner is thinking of our fellow citizens who have had to spend the last 100years coalescing with you and your type of bigotry.

Also showing quite clearly that really, your loyalty is likely to be to the half-crown rather than the crown. My country indeed.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not spinning a load of BS that they'll never be able to deliver-just so self serving mary Lou can get in power.

The mask slips.

Or does it. Your (mis)understanding of Irish politics, both north and south is quite something.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

It’s quite clear why we differ on the need for a border poll.
I understand once a poll is held then gfa says it needs held every 7 years. That would destabilise ni and just keep it a boiling pot, of course that is many republicans agenda but unionists and neutrals want the place to work

It doesn't.

The GFA (that you know so well) states that it CAN'T be held again for at a minimum of 7 years after the guest one. There's no obligation to hold one again unless the same conditions that prompted the first one are met again.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

There's not going to be one and I don't know about a united Ireland but you and francie already live on fantasy island..

Thankfully you have no say. That was the shining light of the GFA, that the people of Ireland will decide Ireland's future.

RobMc59

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The mask slips.

Or does it. Your (mis)understanding of Irish politics, both north and south is quite something.

Can you explain how having an intense dislike of SF and their "associates" mean "the mask slips "?
Or are you just talking your usual codswallop?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You reckon that's a likely scenario?

It's not a case of monkey see monkey do. Irish people aren't very triumphalist in nature.

I mean, The minority protestants and unionists of the south weren't lorded over after 1922 were they?

.

I take it you are on a wind up here - or could you actually believe this? I think even Francie etc would put you straight on how the prods were treated in ROI

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're back to being afraid of the native language of the island again?

You know that the word "Down" comes from the Irish "Dún" meaning "fort"?

You speak and use Irish derived words everyday.

So the new arguments from the extreme end of loyalism is that they'll be stateless in a state which the people of their statelet voted to join, and they're afraid of some fadas/accents on words.

Bonnie you need to get rid of those selective glasses you are wearing.

I was pointing out that the vast majority of those promoting either culture don't mean to cause offence but the other community feels offended, whether that be band parades or irish language signs

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I take it you are on a wind up here - or could you actually believe this? I think even Francie etc would put you straight on how the prods were treated in ROI

What?

Francie has a balanced and fair view of what happened in the new state and there was very little 'lording' going on.
There were instances of sectarianism during the various conflicts but as a few writers from that community have pointed out, Protestants largely removed themselves from the new state. They made themselves 'stateless'.
Sound familiar?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie you need to get rid of those selective glasses you are wearing.

I was pointing out that the vast majority of those promoting either culture don't mean to cause offence but the other community feels offended, whether that be band parades or irish language signs

Anyone can get why triumphalist parades can cause offence and fear, in communities where they are not wanted. Any side can grasp that.

But you have never explained why the language from which the name of where you live derived, causes offence? Nobody is taking away your language downcow, you are not 'losing' anything here.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Francie has a balanced and fair view of what happened in the new state and there was very little 'lording' going on.
There were instances of sectarianism during the various conflicts but as a few writers from that community have pointed out, Protestants largely removed themselves from the new state. They made themselves 'stateless'.
Sound familiar?

I thought you might have been more read than Bonnie but I was wrong.

Heres a wee link worth a quick 2 min read, but probably those 60,000 ordinary prods that got out in a 15 year period moved for nicer views. Another reason there can't be a UI ie there is still know acknowledgement what was done to the minority when you had power over us https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-protestants-were-all-ethnically-cleansed-south-1140005

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone can get why triumphalist parades can cause offence and fear, in communities where they are not wanted. Any side can grasp that.

But you have never explained why the language from which the name of where you live derived, causes offence? Nobody is taking away your language downcow, you are not 'losing' anything here.

If its that simple then maybe you could explain the impact of today's parades to me under your two headings of 'offence' and 'fear'. I am all ears and wanting to learn

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I thought you might have been more read than Bonnie but I was wrong.

Heres a wee link worth a quick 2 min read, but probably those 60,000 ordinary prods that got out in a 15 year period moved for nicer views. Another reason there can't be a UI ie there is still know acknowledgement what was done to the minority when you had power over us https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-protestants-were-all-ethnically-cleansed-south-1140005

You should know that anybody seriously interested in history requires a 'balanced view' downcow.
In history there are always 2 sides and frequently more to any story.
I have that book here, but I also have histories that repudiate his findings. He is in fact very much a lone voice. Many protestants have written different accounts.

Here is one critique of Bury's book.

https://www.historyireland.com/book-reviews/buried-lives-protestants-southern-ireland/

Here is another comment by a Protestant writer. The other book mentioned here, essay written by many Protestants, I recommend to you for an alternative view.

Bury’s book has been reprinted, while a book that takes a diametrically opposing angle, Protestant and Irish: the Minority’s Search for Place in Independent Ireland, edited by Ian d’Alton and Ida Milne, is being reprinted by Cork University Press.

The counter-argument runs through the essays that Irish Protestants quickly adapted to the new State and were, by 1937, in the words of the historian Roy Foster, “more or less uncomplicatedly Irish”.

It is fascinating to read here how a Protestant institution such as Trinity College adapted to the new State. An editorial in a college publication in 1922 called for students to support the new State “without looking back”. Through the 1930s, Taoiseach Éamon de Valera visited and spoke at Trinity, though it flew the union flag until 1939.

My wife is from a long established Protestant family and they to a man and woman have no problems with the Irish state and their place in it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If its that simple then maybe you could explain the impact of today's parades to me under your two headings of 'offence' and 'fear'. I am all ears and wanting to learn

In places were they are not wanted triumphalist parades are frightening and intimidating. Simple as. Whether they are nationalist, orange or any other kind.

Nobody has ever denied you your rights to march where that doesn't happen.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My wife is from a long established Protestant family and they to a man and woman have no problems with the Irish state and their place in it.

My father was a family of 11 living in roi. All 11 left to ni and he had endless stories of the discrimination against them. But sure you keep believing it didn’t happen as it doesn’t suit you narrative

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In places were they are not wanted triumphalist parades are frightening and intimidating. Simple as. Whether they are nationalist, orange or any other kind.

Nobody has ever denied you your rights to march where that doesn't happen.

I take it that means you can’t answer the question I asked ie
“If its that simple then maybe you could explain the impact of today's parades to me under your two headings of 'offence' and 'fear'. I am all ears and wanting to learn”. And I see you’ve added a third heading of triumphalism.
Go on have a go Francie. You say everyone knows.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My father was a family of 11 living in roi. All 11 left to ni and he had endless stories of the discrimination against them. But sure you keep believing it didn’t happen as it doesn’t suit you narrative

Where did I say 'it didn't happen' downcow.

You have spent too long reading what you want to hear in newspapers like The Newsletter.

Broaden the scope. And stop telling lies about what is being said. Here is something else that writer identified and you are showing classic traits of it.

Two sharply differing readings of the history of Irish Protestants since independence are opening up.

The difference really matters and I’ll tell you why: because the “extinction” of Irish Protestants is one of Northern Unionism’s central arguments against further co-operation and its trump card against re-unification.

The “victim” narrative is the dominant one and has been gathering pace since Peter Hart’s excellent The IRA and its Enemies, Gerard Murphy’s compelling Year of Disappearances: Political Killings in Cork 1921-1922 and, most recently, Robin Bury’s Buried Lives.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I take it that means you can’t answer the question I asked ie
“If its that simple then maybe you could explain the impact of today's parades to me under your two headings of 'offence' and 'fear'. I am all ears and wanting to learn”. And I see you’ve added a third heading of triumphalism.
Go on have a go Francie. You say everyone knows.

Read slowly.

There was never an issue with parades where they were wanted.

They cause OFFENCE and FEAR in areas where they are not wanted because they are in nature and definition 'TRIUMPHALIST'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Read slowly.

There was never an issue with parades where they were wanted.

They cause OFFENCE and FEAR in areas where they are not wanted because they are in nature and definition 'TRIUMPHALIST'.

What do you define as areas they are not wanted? and would you not apply exactly the same logic to Irish road signs?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say 'it didn't happen' downcow.

You have spent too long reading what you want to hear in newspapers like The Newsletter.

Broaden the scope. And stop telling lies about what is being said. Here is something else that writer identified and you are showing classic traits of it.

Do i hear you saying that there was not widespread discrimination and intimidation of protestants in ROI? - ...and while you are at it what about widespread intimidation of protestants in NI?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What do you define as areas they are not wanted

Any area that feels itself hemmed in by marching that expresses triumph about victories over them. Green or Orange.

and would you not apply exactly the same logic to Irish road signs?

No, not remotely the same. If Irish upsets you that much then you wouldn't even be able to say where you come from and a lot more besides. A raod sign does not hem you in or triumphalise in music and visual imagery.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any area that feels itself hemmed in by marching that expresses triumph about victories over them. Green or Orange.

Now we are getting somewhere and I am learning. Lets be specific and deal with the loyalist band parades and guide me a little more

Just clarify what you mean by area that feels itself hemmed in?

and I would also like to know what it is that expresses triumph about victories over them?

...and lets not worry for now about my community's feelings as they seem quite happy to let republican parades through their areas

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Do i hear you saying that there was not widespread discrimination and intimidation of protestants in ROI? - ...and while you are at it what about widespread intimidation of protestants in NI?

I said there was some, in times of conflict and more and more isolated incidents of pure sectarian discrimination after independence. Read the other accounts of life for southern protestants.
As the other writer(Protestant) contests about Bury's account: he confused (whether knowingly or deliberately) attacks on Crown forces or those working for them to muddy waters. Invariably these people were protestant. Catholics who worked for the Crown got just the same treatment.
Bury's name calling of our first President, Douglas Hyde, a Presbyterian (discrimination how are yeh!) and eminent protestant people like him as 'Catholic Protestants' just because they spoke Irish fluently tells you all you need to know in my opinion. The author is not interested in calm reasoned historical research.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now we are getting somewhere and I am learning. Lets be specific and deal with the loyalist band parades and guide me a little more

Just clarify what you mean by area that feels itself hemmed in?

and I would also like to know what it is that expresses triumph about victories over them?

...and lets not worry for now about my community's feelings as they seem quite happy to let republican parades through their areas

I suggest downcow that you do a review of the parades commission site. And imagine yourself into the position of those making complaints and objections.

It's called empathy. It is the only way you will get a handle on this stuff.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

widespread intimidation of protestants in NI?

RUC/UDR isn't the same as Protestant. The least affected people in the north during the Troubles were Protestant civilians.

Runaways

10-15 years

Last three pages have me convinced yer man is on a windup and you’re all falling for it.

I’m all for representation but token prod banging the drum the hardest way possible and on no other threads and can barely string a coherent sentence together it’s either Jamie Bryson drunk or one of his bots.

Or maybe they just aren’t that good at the queens English. Who tf knows reading back on all that.

You’ll all be ignored and forgotten in the United Ireland downcow. Much like cork. Ask them.
You’ll just get on with it and no harm to you

Ask anyone. Ireland doesn’t exist outside the m50 apparently.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

RUC/UDR isn't the same as Protestant. The least affected people in the north during the Troubles were Protestant civilians.

Tom that is simply ridiculous.
I am involved in gathering stats on one small majority catholic town approx 2,000 population.
We have just gathered the 1970s so far
96 terrorist incidences
93 of them by the IRA and 3 by loyalists
Of the 93 IRA incidents 38 were directed at security and British state. 52 were directed at protestant residents, homes and premises (none connected to security services) and 3 were directed at Catholics (one suspect IRA informer murdered and two catholic owned pubs blown up, one owned by brother of RC policeman and the other the only mixed pub & majority prod drinkers)

This is replicated across much of NI - So dream on!

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Last three pages have me convinced yer man is on a windup and you’re all falling for it.

I’m all for representation but token prod banging the drum the hardest way possible and on no other threads and can barely string a coherent sentence together it’s either Jamie Bryson drunk or one of his bots.

Or maybe they just aren’t that good at the queens English. Who tf knows reading back on all that.

You’ll all be ignored and forgotten in the United Ireland downcow. Much like cork. Ask them.
You’ll just get on with it and no harm to you

Ask anyone. Ireland doesn’t exist outside the m50 apparently.

Youve been telling us that for 100 years now lol

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I suggest downcow that you do a review of the parades commission site. And imagine yourself into the position of those making complaints and objections.

It's called empathy. It is the only way you will get a handle on this stuff.

Its tiresome Francie. I remember this debate with you a year ago and you couldn't answer then either and directed me to the parades commission website.

I think I have had my feelings confirmed. Sad but Thanks