How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

Runaways wrote: »

Last three pages have me convinced yer man is on a windup and you’re all falling for it.

I’m all for representation but token prod banging the drum the hardest way possible and on no other threads and can barely string a coherent sentence together it’s either Jamie Bryson drunk or one of his bots.

Or maybe they just aren’t that good at the queens English. Who tf knows reading back on all that.

You’ll all be ignored and forgotten in the United Ireland downcow. Much like cork. Ask them.
You’ll just get on with it and no harm to you

Ask anyone. Ireland doesn’t exist outside the m50 apparently.

I've got downcow's number. He's one of those mentioned by his fellow Protestant in the south...he'll play the 'victim' card until the cows come home.

We have had almost the exact same conversation about parades before, were he plays the part of the Orangeman 'trying' to understand.

While all he is doing is massaging his own victimhood. The conversation will never be allowed to go to those contentious marches that cause so much division and strife and NEVER NEVER to the events surrounding the 12th and what it gives an uncontrolled licence to.

It's why I have sent him on his way with his 'earnest enquiring'. Nauseating and quite transparent.

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Too much nonsense to reply to individually so here’s a bit of an attempt at catch all.
UI is not happening in our lifetime end of.
BUT Some of you think it is an panacea and I am just letting you know that you will have somewhere between 0.5-1million people who will detest losing their country and will be exploring every possibility to get their country back Entirely legitimate for those who don’t use violence (I don’t think they have to stay within the law - civil disobedience would be fine in my book) , and of course there will be many will do what ira etc done and turn to violence (latest estimate from Irish news journalist is that the UDA currently has 10-15k membership not to mention the others). That violence sadly will probably follow the ira example ie the vast majority of it will be sectarian but will also hit military and economic targets in eg Dublin. Undoubtedly the old civil rights marches will be copied and of course the scale of these given the marching culture will be immense (look what happened with a wee love Ulster march in Dublin) the riots that will result between marchers, local republicans and Garda will be overwhelming and there the downward spiral begins.
And before you start shooting the messenger, I am opposed to another sectarian squabble leading to 40 years and thousands of deaths. But it would be inevitable
But no one needs to worry cause it’s not happening. Thankfully.

Hopefully most Loyalists actually use their brains if a majority vote for a UI; if Britain pulled out of the North, Loyalist paramilitaries wouldn't last very long in a Troubles 2.0 scenario as they would be without the collusion of elements of the British state this time around.
What is there to fight for when many in Britain would be happy to be shod of NI and when a third of the province of Ulster as some independent statelet would never be a runner? If a UI vote past, I'm pretty sure that the majority in Britain would support the ending of partition on this island.
London doesn't get to become independent of England because it's different in political outlook to most of the rest of the country, for example being very pro-EU.
Finally, anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland for generations is at least somewhat Irish (the clue is in the name). The attitude of "I'm not Irish" from a Unionist is a great example why mass migration without integration is a disaster; I wonder do Unionists extend the right to newer migrants to not to have to integrate either, after all it'd be hypocritical not to hold such a position.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

I am involved in gathering stats on one small majority catholic town approx 2,000 population .... This is replicated across much of NI

The fact remains, those least likely to be killed during the troubles were Protestant civilians.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The fact remains, those least likely to be killed during the troubles were Protestant civilians.

I don't claim to know the exact numbers, and couldn't be bothered looking it up.

But I think you're missing the point that attacks on the RUC and the UDR were and are seen as attacks on the protestant people, as those forces were mainly drawn from that section of society.

You might not agree, but that in no way changes how those people feel.

downcow

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

Hopefully most Loyalists actually use their brains if a majority vote for a UI; if Britain pulled out of the North, Loyalist paramilitaries wouldn't last very long in a Troubles 2.0 scenario as they would be without the collusion of elements of the British state this time around.
What is there to fight for when many in Britain would be happy to be shod of NI and when a third of the province of Ulster as some independent statelet would never be a runner? If a UI vote past, I'm pretty sure that the majority in Britain would support the ending of partition on this island.
London doesn't get to become independent of England because it's different in political outlook to most of the rest of the country, for example being very pro-EU.
Finally, anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland for generations is at least somewhat Irish (the clue is in the name). The attitude of "I'm not Irish" from a Unionist is a great example why mass migration without integration is a disaster; I wonder do Unionists extend the right to newer migrants to not to have to integrate either, after all it'd be hypocritical not to hold such a position.

Guys. The problem is you won’t accept the complexity of the situation.
Francis is ranting as usual about a few parades but refuses to say what exactly is the problem because he knows full well the it is a contested society and that displays of culture and identity wind up the other side. Whether that be parades, fleadhs , Irish signage, even rangers qualifying this week as Celtic go out. You can try and pretend it’s all one side.
The one thing I think will be very funny about the hypothetical UI is that the guys that have played victims for decades will very quickly be seen as the oppressor lol

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The fact remains, those least likely to be killed during the troubles were Protestant civilians.

Not true.
At a quick approx on this island of yours during the troubles a Protestant civilian was about 5 times more likely to be killed than a catholic civilian

Charles Babbage

downcow wrote: »

Guys. The problem is you won’t accept the complexity of the situation.
Francis is ranting as usual about a few parades but refuses to say what exactly is the problem because he knows full well the it is a contested society and that displays of culture and identity wind up the other side. Whether that be parades, fleadhs , Irish signage, even rangers qualifying this week as Celtic go out. You can try and pretend it’s all one side.
The one thing I think will be very funny about the hypothetical UI is that the guys that have played victims for decades will very quickly be seen as the oppressor lol

Parades are celebrating a battle, their entire function is to tell the other side who won. Fleadhs , Irish signage and even Scottish soccer have an independent existence and have only a bit of side baggage about the divide.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

attacks on the RUC and the UDR were and are seen as attacks on the protestant people

Which is one of the reasons given by Unionist serial killers who murdered hundreds and hundreds of innocent Catholics.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Which is one of the reasons given by Unionist serial killers who murdered hundreds and hundreds of innocent Catholics.

Both sides as bad as each other when it comes to murdering unfortunately.
I hate both equally.
Just a complete mess and trail of destruction for families all over.

How anyone can support and agree with what went on is beyond me.

What's the argument here?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guys. The problem is you won’t accept the complexity of the situation.
Francis is ranting as usual about a few parades but refuses to say what exactly is the problem because he knows full well the it is a contested society and that displays of culture and identity wind up the other side. Whether that be parades, fleadhs , Irish signage, even rangers qualifying this week as Celtic go out. You can try and pretend it’s all one side.
The one thing I think will be very funny about the hypothetical UI is that the guys that have played victims for decades will very quickly be seen as the oppressor lol

A sign in Irish has no ability but to be a sign. Like a statute.
Your reaction to it is the issue.

A march/parade has the ability to intimidate, flame or cause offence, and we are all to aware of the history there.

Don't cod yourself that I am 'ranting'. I gave you enough rope to show you playing the victim again. And you obliged.
The 'earnest Orangeman' trying to understand the 'nasty Taigs' routine is old now downcow.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

Not true.
At a quick approx on this island of yours during the troubles a Protestant civilian was about 5 times more likely to be killed than a catholic civilian

You're way out.

Prof Kennedy said that 1,232 Catholic civilians lost their lives in Troubles related violence with most such Catholic civilian deaths being at the hands of loyalists while 698 Protestant civilians lost their lives in the conflict with most of these being at the hands of republicans.

irishtimes.com

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Both sides as bad as each other when it comes to murdering unfortunately.

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats".

Kevin Myers.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats".

Kevin Myers.

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2018/03/15/the-iras-use-of-torture/

1 coin. 2 sides.

downcow

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Parades are celebrating a battle, their entire function is to tell the other side who won. Fleadhs , Irish signage and even Scottish soccer have an independent existence and have only a bit of side baggage about the divide.

More uneducated nonsense. It could be weakly argued that orange parades celebrate a battle but the much more popular and prolific band parades have zero to do with battles and are an expression of culture through music But you don’t want to understand that either

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You're way out.

Prof Kennedy said that 1,232 Catholic civilians lost their lives in Troubles related violence with most such Catholic civilian deaths being at the hands of loyalists while 698 Protestant civilians lost their lives in the conflict with most of these being at the hands of republicans.

irishtimes.com

Yes and there are about 5 million catholics to less than 1 million prods. Do the sums and I did say approx

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2018/03/15/the-iras-use-of-torture/

1 coin. 2 sides.

I'm not saying Republicans involved in the conflict weren't vicious killers, but, largely, their war was against the British state and its proxies whereas Unionists went to war against innocent Catholics, the numbers speak for themselves.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

Yes and there are about 5 million catholics to less than 1 million prods. Do the sums and I did say approx

Oh so we have a United Ireland now Downcow? And the Irish Security forces were routinely colluding with the IRA to target innocent Protestants?

Good grief there really is no reasoning with you, is there? You cherish that siege mentality.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats".

Kevin Myers.

This is very sad that you have been reared to believe ira were somehow clean. They regularly kept young Protestant men who were part time in udr or ruc for 3 days of torture before killing them. I knew one personally who the took 60 hours to kill and I’ll not go into the detail. I do not know of prods doing that. And that is not to defend the bast..ds who took away catholics like shankill butchers. Open your eyes. There was terrible stuff done by ira and uda including rape, child abuse, torture, murder Go and wash your mouth out with soap for suggesting ira were not as bad as uda

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not saying Republicans involved in the conflict weren't vicious killers, but, largely, their war was against the British state and its proxies whereas Unionists went to war against innocent Catholics, the numbers speak for themselves.

British state in NI pretty much equalled protestants, going about their daily work. Cops , prison officers, UDR, etc. All someone’s father, brother, wife, mother, brother , sister, friend, etc.

Say what you want about against the state, you still have to pull a trigger or plant a bomb that murders a person.

Sorry but that doesn’t make it right. No murder is.

Do you agree with what these men and women did?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is very sad that you have been reared to believe ira were somehow clean.

More of your inferring stuff that wasn't said. :rolleyes: The old playing the victim is not going so well.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Do you agree with what these men and women did?

Some of it I do, some of it I don't. I think the those who fought gun-battles with the British Army to keep them out of their communities were fairly heroic. On the other hand, I consider those who carried out the Kingsmill massacre as war criminals. Generally, I'm against all killing and violence unless its fully justified as self-defence.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Some of it I do, some of it I don't. I think the those who fought gun-battles with the British Army to keep them out of their communities were fairly heroic. On the other hand, I consider those who carried out the Kingsmill massacre as war criminals. Generally, I'm against all killing and violence unless its fully justified as self-defence.

Such a mess. Think how many families on all sides across Ireland, UK and beyond that lost loved ones.

Let’s agree on that and move on.

feargale

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just reading an article in today's Irish Times - Brexit lights touchpaper for next political firestorm – Irish unity - and the highlighted line stood out. The fact that the Unionist academic, Peter Shirlow, is actually saying he'd be surprised if there's a United Ireland in 15 years and not 50 or even 30 years is revealing. 15 years is nothing.

The last census in 2011 put the Protestant population at 48%, just 3% more than Catholics at 45%.

More recent figures from 2016 show that among those of working age 44% are now Catholic and 40% Protestant. The difference is even more marked among schoolchildren with 51% Catholic, 37% Protestant.

Only among the over 60s is there a majority of Protestants with 57%, compared to Catholics on 35%.

Dr Nolan said: "Three years from now we will end up, I think, in the ironic situation on the centenary of the state where we actually have a state that has a Catholic majority."
('Catholic majority possible' in NI by 2021)

Catholics outnumbering Protestants? Wolfe Tone would be chuffed.

padd b1975

feargale wrote: »

Catholics outnumbering Protestants? Wolfe Tone would be chuffed.

The old Protestant slur about Catholics breeding like rats is going to be the undoing of them in the end.

Runaways

10-15 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I don't claim to know the exact numbers, and couldn't be bothered looking it up.

But I think you're missing the point that attacks on the RUC and the UDR were and are seen as attacks on the protestant people, as those forces were mainly drawn from that section of society.

You might not agree, but that in no way changes how those people feel.

We very recently had that talk of the RIC/black and tans being commemorated and The uproar here about it, unionists in NI took it as a personal attack on them and no way is there room for reconciliation just look down there!’

They somehow equated us being unhappy with commemorating the more Brutal elements of the British establishment *from a hundred years ago* as an attack on them now


You couldn’t make it up.

They’d give a certain crowd in the Middle East a run for their money in the victimhood olympics

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

We very recently had that talk of the RIC/black and tans being commemorated and The uproar here about it, unionists in NI took it as a personal attack on them and no way is there room for reconciliation just look down there!’

They somehow equated us being unhappy with commemorating the more Brutal elements of the British establishment *from a hundred years ago* as an attack on them now


You couldn’t make it up.

You really couldn’t make it up. I have read page after page here of how prods having a parade is offensive because yous don’t want the war (300 years ago) mentioned and now you are introducing commemorations of something just a hundred years ago and wondering why unionists get upset lol.
Mind you it might be wishful thinking on your behalf because I have not heard a single person who could care what you celebrate - apart from the very recent sectarian slaughter by the ira

RobMc59

10-15 years

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Some of it I do, some of it I don't. I think the those who fought gun-battles with the British Army to keep them out of their communities were fairly heroic. On the other hand, I consider those who carried out the Kingsmill massacre as war criminals. Generally, I'm against all killing and violence unless its fully justified as self-defence.

The glaring fact which emerges from this discussion is there are major obstacles which would require addressing before the possibility of a UI referendum got off the ground.
It's all very well politicians saying what they think the people want to hear but personally,I'd rather people in the community like Downcow and Francie were involved in some kind of joint think tank to try to float ideas from both viewpoints-or am I talking boll*x?

wexfordman2

15-20 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

If I moved to Wales or Scotland I can vote there-why wouldn't I be able to vote in NI which is also part of the UK?

Because, in Ireland, referendums are done correctly . They are constitutional issues, and only Irish citizens, resident in Ireland can vote on constitutional referendums.

wexfordman2

15-20 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

The glaring fact which emerges from this discussion is there are major obstacles which would require addressing before the possibility of a UI referendum got off the ground.
It's all very well politicians saying what they think the people want to hear but personally,I'd rather people in the community like Downcow and Francie were involved in some kind of joint think tank to try to float ideas from both viewpoints-or am I talking boll*x?

Nope, this time you are not talking bollix

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

The glaring fact which emerges from this discussion is there are major obstacles which would require addressing before the possibility of a UI referendum got off the ground.
It's all very well politicians saying what they think the people want to hear but personally,I'd rather people in the community like Downcow and Francie were involved in some kind of joint think tank to try to float ideas from both viewpoints-or am I talking boll*x?

Well Rob the problem would be what the think tank was about (the classic Northern Irish 'talks about talks' would be necessary)

I guess Francie and his kind would only have one thing on the table ie how to progress towards a UI.
For Unionists to enter talks like that would be like turkeys entering talks to discuss whether they should be frozen or fresh for Christmas.

Francie loves the GFA and if everyone wants to stick by it then its all in there and there is nothing to talk about, and he knows If he wants a UI then he has the unenviable (impossible) task of getting a referendum and then achieving majorities N & S.

If he wants to talk about other options like a United Ireland of NI & ROI then there would be plenty to talk about. My bottom line is that I will not be allowing my country to be tipexed out - It can reshape it, transform it, allow it to be part of a UI, UK or whatever - but I will not allow it to disappear. I can assure you the majority of the next generation of my community feel the same, but I obviously can't speak for generations to follow - thats up to them