How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well Rob the problem would be what the think tank was about (the classic Northern Irish 'talks about talks' would be necessary)

I guess Francie and his kind would only have one thing on the table ie how to progress towards a UI.
For Unionists to enter talks like that would be like turkeys entering talks to discuss whether they should be frozen or fresh for Christmas.

Francie loves the GFA and if everyone wants to stick by it then its all in there and there is nothing to talk about, and he knows If he wants a UI then he has the unenviable (impossible) task of getting a referendum and then achieving majorities N & S.

If he wants to talk about other options like a United Ireland of NI & ROI then there would be plenty to talk about. My bottom line is that I will not be allowing my country to be tipexed out - It can reshape it, transform it, allow it to be part of a UI, UK or whatever - but I will not allow it to disappear. I can assure you the majority of the next generation of my community feel the same, but I obviously can't speak for generations to follow - thats up to them

You are correct downcow, the majority of the think tanking has been done in the GFA. And everyone knows what happens once a Border poll succeeds.
If the DUP or others want to add codicils or other ideas then they are going to have to engage.

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

You really couldn’t make it up. I have read page after page here of how prods having a parade is offensive because yous don’t want the war (300 years ago) mentioned and now you are introducing commemorations of something just a hundred years ago and wondering why unionists get upset lol.
Mind you it might be wishful thinking on your behalf because I have not heard a single person who could care what you celebrate - apart from the very recent sectarian slaughter by the ira

Who was celebrating a recent slaughter by the ira?

Enlighten us oh bovine one

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd rather people in the community like Downcow and Francie were involved in some kind of joint think tank to try to float ideas from both viewpoints-or am I talking boll*x?

Unionists like Downcow even discussing a UI is, as he says, akin to them asking them whether they would like to be a fresh, or frozen, Turkey for Xmas. Trying to convince the Downcow type of 'our wee country' Unionists is wasted energy. We have a job on our hands convincing soft Unionists, 'neithers' and even happy-as-they-are Nationalists.

I think in the event of a UI that the sky wouldn't fall and Unionists like Downcow would see that not much had changed for them materially in the short term and that hopefully their kids would see an improvement in their lives in the medium term.

In the very long term the Orange Order and parades would probably be like those we see in Canada, a sort of benign cultural artefact of a time long passed.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In the very long term the Orange Order and parades would probably be like those we see in Canada, a sort of benign cultural artefact of a time long passed.

I would agree the OO is in an irreversible decline. And that’s as it should be if people lose interest ie it should not be artificially propped up like the Irish language. It should be decided by interest.
In contrast loyalist bands and band parades are booming with many young people on waiting lists to join But that’s the ourweecountry effect which is more about ni and less about old house unionism.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Who was celebrating a recent slaughter by the ira?

Enlighten us oh bovine one

Do you want the list or just examples.
Celebrating the ira is ultimately celebrating their work. Same as celebrating the uda would be very offensive to catholics.
But maybe you think you can eulogise the ira without hurting the victims.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would agree the OO is in an irreversible decline. And that’s as it should be if people lose interest ie it should not be artificially propped up like the Irish language. It should be decided by interest.
In contrast loyalist bands and band parades are booming with many young people on waiting lists to join But that’s the ourweecountry effect which is more about ni and less about old house unionism.

Any chance the leaders of your wee country can be heard loud and clear condemning the toxic offensiveness that happens around the celebration of your 'culture'?

The OO is unsustainable, as you said, in a modern inclusive society, but just transferring that expression of bigotry to somewhere else is not going to work either.

SF have very stridently criticised sectarian expressions of hate in their own communities. High time Unionist politicians were heard to do the same, and not attending them would be good too.

RobMc59

10-15 years

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Because, in Ireland, referendums are done correctly . They are constitutional issues, and only Irish citizens, resident in Ireland can vote on constitutional referendums.

NI is British so if I lived there wouldn't I be able to vote?
I understand Irish people living in the UK were able to vote in the brexit referendum.

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Do you want the list or just examples.
Celebrating the ira is ultimately celebrating their work. Same as celebrating the uda would be very offensive to catholics.
But maybe you think you can eulogise the ira without hurting the victims.

You absolutely do seem to live in a sectarianised bubble of your own making.
Nobody. Absolutely nobody anywhere celebrates anything the IRA did. Ever.
Why tf would I eulogize them? You’re bringing this preconception to the table presumably about all Catholics and everyone in Ireland (you’re fond of sweeping generalisations it seems) and it’s utterly wrong.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

You absolutely do seem to live in a sectarianised bubble of your own making.
Nobody. Absolutely nobody anywhere celebrates anything the IRA did. Ever.
Why tf would I eulogize them? You’re bringing this preconception to the table presumably about all Catholics and everyone in Ireland (you’re fond of sweeping generalisations it seems) and it’s utterly wrong.

You implied it is not happening and yet All levels of SF and thier supporters are at it on a weekly basis.
Are you saying it is happening or it is not happening? im confused

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any chance the leaders of your wee country can be heard loud and clear condemning the toxic offensiveness that happens around the celebration of your 'culture'?

The OO is unsustainable, as you said, in a modern inclusive society, but just transferring that expression of bigotry to somewhere else is not going to work either.

SF have very stridently criticised sectarian expressions of hate in their own communities. High time Unionist politicians were heard to do the same, and not attending them would be good too.

Francie, I have asked you several times to identify for me what is offensive about loyalist band parades. I can't encourage people to stop it till someone tells me what it is that you want stopped. And don't cop out again by directing me to the parades commission or finding some way out example of isolated misbehaviour - we could find that with anything. general terms if you like, What is offensive and why?????

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I have asked you several times to identify for me what is offensive about loyalist band parades. I can't encourage people to stop it till someone tells me what it is that you want stopped. And don't cop out again by directing me to the parades commission or finding some way out example of isolated misbehaviour - we could find that with anything. general terms if you like, What is offensive and why?????

You keep on looking for ways to portray yourself as some sort of 'victim' downcow.

Far as I am concerned you can dress up and play music to your hearts content. Knock yourself out. I was specific in what I was referencing.

condemning the toxic offensiveness that happens around the celebration of your 'culture'?

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

You implied it is not happening and yet All levels of SF and thier supporters are at it on a weekly basis.
Are you saying it is happening or it is not happening? im confused

Where are they at it on a weekly basis? I think you’re probably jumping at shadows here downcow. Certainly doesn’t happen anywhere here at all.

Ps I’m all for marching bands and kids learning instruments. Wasn’t there loads of matching bands from NI took part in the paddy’s day parade last year here in Dublin?

Food and music are two things that can cross any and all divides. I’m all for it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You keep on looking for ways to portray yourself as some sort of 'victim' downcow.

Far as I am concerned you can dress up and play music to your hearts content. Knock yourself out. I was specific in what I was referencing.

Well thats about as clear as you can get. Francie can't find anything offensive about the loyalist band parades - just as i thought

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Where are they at it on a weekly basis? I think you’re probably jumping at shadows here downcow. Certainly doesn’t happen anywhere here at all.

Ps I’m all for marching bands and kids learning instruments. Wasn’t there loads of matching bands from NI took part in the paddy’s day parade last year here in Dublin?

Food and music are two things that can cross any and all divides. I’m all for it.

Good on you for your support for bands of all sorts - I love diversity.

But your other point about glorifying IRA doesnt happen 'down here' - I think this is 'down here' and just from this month https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/up-the-republic-up-the-ra-and-tiocfaidh-%C3%A1r-l%C3%A1-sf-td-1.4168797
how many more would you like. would you like to see your lovely footbal fans singing IRA songs. or would you like some of you famous sports people supporting the IRA publicly, or maybe some of your singers. or maybe a MEP or maybe a Dublin Mayor.. Just let me know and I'll enlighten you about 'down here' lol

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Good on you for your support for bands of all sorts - I love diversity.

But your other point about glorifying IRA doesnt happen 'down here' - I think this is 'down here' and just from this month https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/up-the-republic-up-the-ra-and-tiocfaidh-%C3%A1r-l%C3%A1-sf-td-1.4168797
how many more would you like. would you like to see your lovely footbal fans singing IRA songs. or would you like some of you famous sports people supporting the IRA publicly, or maybe some of your singers. or maybe a MEP or maybe a Dublin Mayor.. Just let me know and I'll enlighten you about 'down here' lol

Ah he’s a gob****e don’t be minding him. Singers and football games? Doesn’t happen DC. On my mas grave. Famous sports people? I mean cmon I think you’re misinformed on this one.
You’d be a complete outcast and pariah to do any of that but especially if you were in any kind of celebrity or well known capacity. Career over like

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Ah he’s a gob****e don’t be minding him. Singers and football games? Doesn’t happen DC. On my mas grave. Famous sports people? I mean cmon I think you’re misinformed on this one.
You’d be a complete outcast and pariah to do any of that but especially if you were in any kind of celebrity or well known capacity. Career over like

I'll not hold you to your promise

one of you top boxers i'm told -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/47609828

your football chief - now ex i think https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/republic-of-ireland/11250106/Ireland-football-chief-sparks-controversy-by-singing-pro-Republican-song.html

and of course a gaa senior team https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/tyrone-gaa-boss-apologises-over-ira-song-956932

would you like a few more

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I'll not hold you to your promise

one of you top boxers i'm told -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/47609828

your football chief - now ex i think https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/republic-of-ireland/11250106/Ireland-football-chief-sparks-controversy-by-singing-pro-Republican-song.html

and of course a gaa senior team https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/tyrone-gaa-boss-apologises-over-ira-song-956932

would you like a few more

The boxer is from Belfast. The GAA team from Tyrone and the football guy is behind a paywall. And I’m sorry but I’m not giving the Telegraph any money

I said down here by the way.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well thats about as clear as you can get. Francie can't find anything offensive about the loyalist band parades - just as i thought

Again the disingenuous answer that you think nobody notices.

downcow wrote: »

I'll not hold you to your promise

one of you top boxers i'm told -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/47609828

your football chief - now ex i think https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/republic-of-ireland/11250106/Ireland-football-chief-sparks-controversy-by-singing-pro-Republican-song.html

and of course a gaa senior team https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/tyrone-gaa-boss-apologises-over-ira-song-956932

would you like a few more

And more of it here. ^

Neither community is going to forget those that defended and fought for it.

Just like we have to walk past your celebratory remembrances and other expressions of triumph (Carson the original terrorist's statue etc) you are going to have to accept that some people want to remember what the IRA did.
It may have escaped your notice that we are in the decade of centenary's and we are remembering previous sacrifices.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

The boxer is from Belfast. The GAA team from Tyrone and the football guy is behind a paywall. And I’m sorry but I’m not giving the Telegraph any money

I said down here by the way.

The boxer and the gaa team will be surprised and disapointed by your partitionist attitude.
bur i think point is well proved.
Now go away and help Francie as he trys to define what offends him about general loyalist parades

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again the disingenuous answer that you think nobody notices.





And more of it here. ^

Neither community is going to forget those that defended and fought for it.

Just like we have to walk past your celebratory remembrances and other expressions of triumph (Carson the original terrorist's statue etc) you are going to have to accept that some people want to remember what the IRA did.
It may have escaped your notice that we are in the decade of centenary's and we are remembering previous sacrifices.

I think you need to direct that at Runaway. It was him, not me that claimed nobody anywhere is eulogising terrorists - both communities are at.

....and you waste so much energy avoiding telling me what it is about general loyalist parades that offends you

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Guys. The problem is you won’t accept the complexity of the situation.
Francis is ranting as usual about a few parades but refuses to say what exactly is the problem because he knows full well the it is a contested society and that displays of culture and identity wind up the other side. Whether that be parades, fleadhs , Irish signage, even rangers qualifying this week as Celtic go out. You can try and pretend it’s all one side.
The one thing I think will be very funny about the hypothetical UI is that the guys that have played victims for decades will very quickly be seen as the oppressor lol

I accept that the situation in the North is complex. I actually believe that if a UI ever comes about that the majority on this island should make concessions, for example, re-join the Commonwealth but as a Republic like South Africa. That may be unpopular but I accept that there has to be give and take. However the idea of some kind of independent statelet of a minority of Ulster is a non-runner. Also, Britain will leave the North if a majority in Northern Ireland vote for a UI in future and imo it'd be unlikely that they'd want to be in charge there again. All in or all out is how it ought be (like when 28, not 26, of Ireland's 32 counties had a nationalist majority in 1918), as this whole island as one unit is clearly the option that makes most sense, even for such a utilitarian reason as avoiding duplication.

Runaways

10-15 years

It’s not partitionist DC

I said nobody down here celebrates the ira. You said you’d provide examples.

You choose people fron NI. Not the republic.

I get it yis are all as bad as each other up there but my Point stands.

‘Celebrating’ (your word) the IRA simply doesn’t happen here.

Runaways

10-15 years

Ps something I bet you didn’t know and probably won’t believe DC

That song come out ye Black and Tans is actually a satire ripping the piss out of the type of people that sing rebel songs. A joke very often missed by anyone singing it much like born in the USA was completely mistrued by very very many people (and continues to be quite often)

Sinbad_NI

Runaways wrote: »

The boxer is from Belfast. The GAA team from Tyrone and the football guy is behind a paywall. And I’m sorry but I’m not giving the Telegraph any money

I said down here by the way.

Alternative to the telegraph link. Pretty sure it's the same story.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/fai-silent-on-legal-threat-over-john-delaney-s-ira-ballad-1.2015054

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

I thought you might have been more read than Bonnie but I was wrong.

Heres a wee link worth a quick 2 min read, but probably those 60,000 ordinary prods that got out in a 15 year period moved for nicer views. Another reason there can't be a UI ie there is still know acknowledgement what was done to the minority when you had power over us https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-protestants-were-all-ethnically-cleansed-south-1140005

While there were exceptions to the rule, Protestants were generally treated quite well in the South. History Ireland has covered the canard that is the claim of an ethnic cleansing of Protestants.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

It’s not partitionist DC

I said nobody down here celebrates the ira. You said you’d provide examples.

You choose people fron NI. Not the republic.

I get it yis are all as bad as each other up there but my Point stands.

‘Celebrating’ (your word) the IRA simply doesn’t happen here.

Did i not post you the head of your FAI singing IRA songs and one of youTDs lording it up with Up the Ra. many more if you really want them.
So you need to take you blindfold off

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Ps something I bet you didn’t know and probably won’t believe DC

That song come out ye Black and Tans is actually a satire ripping the piss out of the type of people that sing rebel songs. A joke very often missed by anyone singing it much like born in the USA was completely mistrued by very very many people (and continues to be quite often)

Glad to hear that, that makes them double w**kers that are singing it.

Could you give me some evidence of this please

downcow

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

While there were exceptions to the rule, Protestants were generally treated quite well in the South. History Ireland has covered the canard that is the claim of an ethnic cleansing of Protestants.

Not my fathers familys experience, but i guess the ones that stayed were maybe treated ok and their telling you that.
Its a known fact in conflict work that minorities below 10% are inclined to keep their heads down and pretend the are happy and assure the majority that they love living among them.
A UI would seriously skew that misconception lol

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Did i not post you the head of your FAI singing IRA songs and one of youTDs lording it up with Up the Ra. many more if you really want them.
So you need to take you blindfold off

There’s two.
So you’re saying the entire population of the republic celebrates the ira based on two (sh!thead) examples?
Really? I don’t want to bring up the 12th and all that but ehhhhh

We’re not even at the races when it comes to sectarianism. You guys both sides are world champions at it to be honest.

It doesn’t happen down here. It wouldn’t be accepted.

That SF td in particular was torn apart the whole week after the election in the papers and the media in general.

It’s not acceptable behavior to us in any way


Do you understand that much?

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Not my fathers familys experience, but i guess the ones that stayed were maybe treated ok and their telling you that.
Its a known fact in conflict work that minorities below 10% are inclined to keep their heads down and pretend the are happy and assure the majority that they love living among them.
A UI would seriously skew that misconception lol

We don’t have the segregation and no go areas based on religion you have up there.
Your siege mentality doesn’t exist here. Hard as that is for you to believe or understand

Nobody gives a flying gig what anyone’s religion is. It’s not an issue. We just all get on with it.

Mad right?