How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now how would we no what is respectful when you refuse to tell us what causes offence to you a general loyalist parades.
We had someone post isolated nonsense from 20 years ago that actually offended me as much as him.

Try as much as you want downcow, but you won't re-direct the conversation to something nobody is talking about.

Pkiernan

Wait until our Northern brethren have to pay 2 grand a year motor tax.

That'll cool their 'until all our rivers run free' jets!

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Try as much as you want downcow, but you won't re-direct the conversation to something nobody is talking about.

I am actually really chuffed to see that loyalist parades are so cleaned up that not even you Francie can identify anything that offends you. They deserve massive credit for that.

downcow

Pkiernan wrote: »

Wait until our Northern brethren have to pay 2 grand a year motor tax.

That'll cool their 'until all our rivers run free' jets!

Agreed. And remind me how much is it to visit your gp now? and also how does it work when you are prescribed medicine?

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

That parade you enjoyed in Kilkeel could not be replicated in Dublin due to intolerance

As someone from the north-inner city of Dublin I am ashamed at the violence that there was when the Love Ulster parade was to take place.

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Agreed. And remind me how much is it to visit your gp now? and also how does it work when you are prescribed medicine?

Many people have medical cards.

Lord Fairlord

15-20 years

One more point that I'll make for now; if one went back in time to when the Act of Union was passed (by bribery) for Ireland to join Great Britain and become one unit, one would find many Ulster protestants (possibly a majority of them) who would have considered themselves Irish.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now how would we no what is respectful when you refuse to tell us what causes offence to you a general loyalist parades.
We had someone post isolated nonsense from 20 years ago that actually offended me as much as him.

Nobody has a problem when you march were you are wanted.

The OO tried to get the DUP to use their 'influence' with the Tories to force marches where they are not wanted 'Garvaghy Road etc'

This shows that they have, as yet, not learned that this behaviour is wrong.

They (the OO) and Unionist politicians need to heard much much louder, condemning what goes on around the 12th. Instead of attending these events they need to get their hands dirty and work to remove the toxic nature of them.

FrancieBrady

Pkiernan wrote: »

Wait until our Northern brethren have to pay 2 grand a year motor tax.

That'll cool their 'until all our rivers run free' jets!

If you are paying 2 grand for motor tax, 'hell rub it up you' as me granny used to say. I think mine is 390.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has a problem when you march were you are wanted.

And hence the problem.
Everyone needs to be tolerant to others traditions.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has a problem when you march were you are wanted.
.

Francie won’t even tell us what “where you are wanted” means
And won’t tell us what exactly is offensive in today’s loyalist parades.
He just keeps ranting same stuff that is vague and meaningless or points is to the parades commission or is last century.

This is because he knows that bands parades have worked incredibly hard to be non offensive and are now enjoyed by visiting holiday makers etc.
Sf, as high up as Gerry Adams, said they were going to use parades as part of the new cultural war and use equality as a Trojan horse to ‘beat the bastards’.
They are very annoyed that loyalist bands stole a march on them and have left nothing for their Trojan horse to attack.

That’s Francis’s problem with parades. They are not offensive enough for his agenda

suicide_circus

do we want a UI done soon or do we want it done right?

downcow

bubblypop wrote: »

And hence the problem.
Everyone needs to be tolerant to others traditions.

Bubblypop. You have contributed some very sensible reasonable posts and made me think a little about my prejudice.

Both sides here actually love it when the other side does some very offensive, particularly if it is caught on video. We can then post and repost and show our awful hurt and indignation.

If I be really really honest I love to see videos appearing of roi football fans singing ira songs, shinners burning union flags, gaa clubs hosting Wolfe tonne concerts, Irish rugby using roi anthem and flag only, etc, etc, etc, So I can think to myself, yes, there we go again, they haven’t changed.
It is quite sad that this conflict has turned into each proving the other is the intolerant sectarian side.

You and some others contributions always challenge that in myself.

My local councillor (fairly moderate Ulster unionist) had his name painted up various places just last week along with IRA and a snipers gun sight. The pics were circulated around our community as more evidence that we are correct that sf don’t want a prod about the place. I am sure the very same messages were embarrassing to most nationalists and indeed many republicans.
Both sides love it when the other sides mask slips.

In some strange (probably unhealthy) way these displays of sectarian hatred against us, whether intentional or not, bonds our community tighter together and makes us more resilient against a UI.

Francie is careful not to let the mask slip too often but there are a few others on her who’s masks have fell right off lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie won’t even tell us what “where you are wanted” means
And won’t tell us what exactly is offensive in today’s loyalist parades.
He just keeps ranting same stuff that is vague and meaningless or points is to the parades commission or is last century.

This is because he knows that bands parades have worked incredibly hard to be non offensive and are now enjoyed by visiting holiday makers etc.
Sf, as high up as Gerry Adams, said they were going to use parades as part of the new cultural war and use equality as a Trojan horse to ‘beat the bastards’.
They are very annoyed that loyalist bands stole a march on them and have left nothing for their Trojan horse to attack.

That’s Francis’s problem with parades. They are not offensive enough for his agenda

I told you before where to find the objections to parades and marches - where they are lodged. Among the reasons are past instance of provocation, intimidation and spiteful triumphalism.

I have shown where the OO, using the tried and trusted undemocratic methods of undue influence, tried unsuccessfully to get a parades commission ruling overturned.
That in itself shows that the nationalist community still has to be on it's guard as the OO still hasn't accepted that it no longer has a veto and is equal to everyone else in NI.

Maybe when you realise why people would think 'equality' is a basic right and never a trojan horse then you might realise how intolerable your behaviour has been in the past.

Again, nobody has a problem when the triumphalist and provocative content is removed and you do NOT try to impose your 'celebrations' on areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are. The very existence of a Parades Commission should tell you that your community are not there yet.
That is before we get to the other behaviours this season of marching and 'celebration' unleashes. I'm sure 'de tourists' are queuing up to take part in those.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I told you before where to find the objections to parades and marches - where they are lodged. Among the reasons are past instance of provocation, intimidation and spiteful triumphalism.

I have shown where the OO, using the tried and trusted undemocratic methods of undue influence, tried unsuccessfully to get a parades commission ruling overturned.
That in itself shows that the nationalist community still has to be on it's guard as the OO still hasn't accepted that it no longer has a veto and is equal to everyone else in NI.

Maybe when you realise why people would think 'equality' is a basic right and never a trojan horse then you might realise how intolerable your behaviour has been in the past.

Again, nobody has a problem when the triumphalist and provocative content is removed and you do NOT try to impose your 'celebrations' on areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are. The very existence of a Parades Commission should tell you that your community are not there yet.
That is before we get to the other behaviours this season of marching and 'celebration' unleashes. I'm sure 'de tourists' are queuing up to take part in those.

I told you before where to find the objections to parades and marches - where they are lodged. Among the reasons are past instance of provocation, intimidation and spiteful triumphalism.
Why don't you just tell me what offends you in todays loyalist parades and stop pointing me to the parades commission and the past - It isn't that hard a question and you seem to have time on your hands

I have shown where the OO, using the tried and trusted undemocratic methods of undue influence, tried unsuccessfully to get a parades commission ruling overturned.
That in itself shows that the nationalist community still has to be on it's guard as the OO still hasn't accepted that it no longer has a veto and is equal to everyone else in NI.
You haven't shown me. If you are referring to them asking DUP to negotiate it as part of 'confidence & supply', while I disagree with them, they are entirely in their rights to ask a political party include it - Its up to the political party to decide and the DUP refused. Only difference when the IRA asked SF to negotiate 'letters of comfort' as part of a secret deal and SF said yes (as was their right) and as we saw on TV last week psychopathic mass sectarian murderers received them

Maybe when you realise why people would think 'equality' is a basic right and never a trojan horse then you might realise how intolerable your behaviour has been in the past.
It was Gery Adams said the whole republican strategy was to use equality arguments as a Trojan Horse to "break the Basta*ds" - I am sure you don;t need the link

Again, nobody has a problem when the triumphalist and provocative content is removed and you do NOT try to impose your 'celebrations' on areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are. The very existence of a Parades Commission should tell you that your community are not there yet.
That is before we get to the other behaviours this season of marching and 'celebration' unleashes. I'm sure 'de tourists' are queuing up to take part in those.
Here we go again "areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are", but you refuse to define these areas. And references to "triumphalist and provocative content" and you won't tell me what this is in today's loyalist parades.

I am afraid Gerry's Trojan Horse outburst has pulled the mask from many

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Why don't you just tell me what offends you in todays loyalist parades and stop pointing me to the parades commission and the past - It isn't that hard a question and you seem to have time on your hands

Why would I not point you to the body tasked with monitoring what goes on?
NOBODY has a problem when those on parade behave themselves downcow. When they do NOT USE parades to triumphalise and provoke...the VERY REASON a parades commission exists in the first place.

That the OO is vehemently against the Parades Commission in spite of the work it has done is relevant here too.

You haven't shown me. If you are referring to them asking DUP to negotiate it as part of 'confidence & supply', while I disagree with them, they are entirely in their rights to ask a political party include it - Its up to the political party to decide and the DUP refused. Only difference when the IRA asked SF to negotiate 'letters of comfort' as part of a secret deal and SF said yes (as was their right) and as we saw on TV last week psychopathic mass sectarian murderers received them[/B]

That the OO refuse to deal with contentious parades through the legislative process agreed to deal with is the problem here. Trying to subvert that process is a true example of a 'mask slipping'. The nationalist community are right therefore not to fully trust the 'we have changed' rhetoric.

Maybe when you realise why people would think 'equality' is a basic right and never a trojan horse then you might realise how intolerable your behaviour has been in the past.

It was Gery Adams said the whole republican strategy was to use equality arguments as a Trojan Horse to "break the Basta*ds" - I am sure you don;t need the link

Again, nobody has a problem when the triumphalist and provocative content is removed and you do NOT try to impose your 'celebrations' on areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are. The very existence of a Parades Commission should tell you that your community are not there yet.
That is before we get to the other behaviours this season of marching and 'celebration' unleashes. I'm sure 'de tourists' are queuing up to take part in those.

Here we go again "areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are", but you refuse to define these areas. And references to "triumphalist and provocative content" and you won't tell me what this is in today's loyalist parades.[/B]

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU BEHAVE AND DON'T INDULGE IN PROVOCATIVE OR TRIUMPHALIST DISPLAYS.

How often does it need to be said?

All of which once again, ignores all the other stuff that goes on around this season of celebration which disgraces your community and draws mostly silence from your political representatives.
Instead of refusing to engage with the likes of the Parades Commission, Unionists should perhaps stop feeling sorry for themselves and come to terms with how the behaved in the past and build some trust and a normal society. Perhaps then we wouldn't need a Parades Commission or to provoke and triumphalise.

PLEASE USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION PROPERLY DOWNCOW.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

It was Gery Adams said the whole republican strategy was to use equality arguments as a Trojan Horse to "break the Basta*ds" - I am sure you don;t need the link

And whose fault is it that there were equality issues to use as an arguement in the first place?

Unionists want to maintain the Union which is a legitimate stance. The best way they can do that is by persuasion, not alienating half the population of NI.

Just on the 12th celebrations - I'd imagine that does more to generate tourism in the Republic than it does in Northern Ireland.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would I not point you to the body tasked with monitoring what goes on?
NOBODY has a problem when those on parade behave themselves downcow. When they do NOT USE parades to triumphalise and provoke...the VERY REASON a parades commission exists in the first place.

That the OO is vehemently against the Parades Commission in spite of the work it has done is relevant here too.



That the OO refuse to deal with contentious parades through the legislative process agreed to deal with is the problem here. Trying to subvert that process is a true example of a 'mask slipping'. The nationalist community are right therefore not to fully trust the 'we have changed' rhetoric.

Maybe when you realise why people would think 'equality' is a basic right and never a trojan horse then you might realise how intolerable your behaviour has been in the past.

Again, nobody has a problem when the triumphalist and provocative content is removed and you do NOT try to impose your 'celebrations' on areas that don't feel the need to celebrate what you are. The very existence of a Parades Commission should tell you that your community are not there yet.
That is before we get to the other behaviours this season of marching and 'celebration' unleashes. I'm sure 'de tourists' are queuing up to take part in those.

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU BEHAVE AND DON'T INDULGE IN PROVOCATIVE OR TRIUMPHALIST DISPLAYS.

How often does it need to be said?

All of which once again, ignores all the other stuff that goes on around this season of celebration which disgraces your community and draws mostly silence from your political representatives.
Instead of refusing to engage with the likes of the Parades Commission, Unionists should perhaps stop feeling sorry for themselves and come to terms with how the behaved in the past and build some trust and a normal society. Perhaps then we wouldn't need a Parades Commission or to provoke and triumphalise.

PLEASE USE THE QUOTE FUNCTION PROPERLY DOWNCOW.

Francie. As you know I want you to tell me what offends YOU about today’s loyalist parades not what Gerry’s vols have written to the parades commission.

I think we may put this to bed now. It’s a wee bit off topic and I imagine posters are baffled that after months of asking you still won’t identify a single concrete thing that offends you about today’s loyalist parades. And I don’t know why you are so infatuated by the OO. They are very small in the scheme of parading in ni

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. As you know I want you to tell me what offends YOU about today’s loyalist parades not what Gerry’s vols have written to the parades commission.

I think we may put this to bed now. It’s a wee bit off topic and I imagine posters are baffled that after months of asking you still won’t identify a single concrete thing that offends you about today’s loyalist parades. And I don’t know why you are so infatuated by the OO. They are very small in the scheme of parading in ni

Even writing it in CAPS, you still choose to ignore it.

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU BEHAVE AND DON'T INDULGE IN PROVOCATIVE OR TRIUMPHALIST DISPLAYS.

As you said earlier, you love it with the other side 'lets the mask slip'.

Well it isn't going to slip on my end. I am a democratic and want to live in a normal 'inclusive' society. That means having manners and respect. If you do that parade away to your hearts content.

Yeah_Right

downcow wrote: »

If I be really really honest I love to see videos appearing of roi football fans singing ira songs, shinners burning union flags, gaa clubs hosting Wolfe tonne concerts, Irish rugby using roi anthem and flag only, etc, etc, etc, So I can think to myself, yes, there we go again, they haven’t changed.

Good on you for recognising your own prejudices and biases. It's a shame some others can't do the same. I have to ask about the bit in bold though. When has that happened? As far as I'm aware the rugby team only use the ROI anthem when they play at home along with Ireland's Call. When they play overseas it's just Ireland's Call. As for flags they usually go with the IRFU one though at the World Cup I think was the tricolour and the Ulster flag.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

In the unlikely even of a UI I think the whole island won’t be long granting us a very high level of autonomy like Kosovo.

About 95% of Kosovan's are muslim and they get on with each other, whereas its about 50/50 in Northern Ireland. Autonomy for Northern Ireland will mean getting on with each other within Northern Ireland and not look like NI is going to go back to the days of the pre-70s sectarian Stormont Gov.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

About 95% of Kosovan's are muslim and they get on with each other, whereas its about 50/50 in Northern Ireland. Autonomy for Northern Ireland will mean getting on with each other within Northern Ireland and not look like NI is going to go back to the days of the pre-70s sectarian Stormont Gov.

Northern Kosovo is majority Serbian, there are still conflicts in that part of the country.
As a whole though, the people of Kosovo seem to get along better than the people of Northern Ireland.
It can be done, but it needs a complete change in the mindset of the population. can't see that happening anytime soon.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote:

In the unlikely even of a UI I think the whole island won’t be long granting us a very high level of autonomy like Kosovo.

Why would northern nationalists agree to being still stuck in a statelet after reunification?

Where's the incentive to agree to this theoretical nonsense?

Are Northern Nationalists' concerns of such a scenario less legitimate than unionists wishes to keep the status quo or whatever this form of autonomy would take?

You partitionists are all aware that NI exists and that unionists have what they want? It's up to unionism to sell the status quo to Nationalists. Something they have failed to do for 100 years.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why would northern nationalists agree to being still stuck in a statelet after reunification?

Where's the incentive to agree to this theoretical nonsense?

Are Northern Nationalists' concerns of such a scenario less legitimate than unionists wishes to keep the status quo or whatever this firm of autonomy would take?

You partitionists are all aware that NI exists and that unionists have what they want? It's up to unionism to sell the status quo to Nationalists. Something they have failed to do for 100 years.

I never suggested that?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

bubblypop wrote: »

I never suggested that?

You were responding to Downcow who had. It seemed on that basis you were in agreement.

Edit: you responded to a response to Downcow. Oops. I'll re-edit.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You were responding to Downcow who had. It seemed on that basis you were in agreement.

i responded to a poster called JM08.

downcow

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Good on you for recognising your own prejudices and biases. It's a shame some others can't do the same. I have to ask about the bit in bold though. When has that happened? As far as I'm aware the rugby team only use the ROI anthem when they play at home along with Ireland's Call. When they play overseas it's just Ireland's Call. As for flags they usually go with the IRFU one though at the World Cup I think was the tricolour and the Ulster flag.

I accept a fair degree of it is nuanced and misunderstanding.
When the teams united it was agreed at that they would, time about using north and south Location and time about gstq and Soldiers song and also swapping flags. This has not happened in recent decades if ever.
The change of flag for wc is interesting. Clearly some within the system wanted to dump the arrangement of not using the tricolour outside roi but this action probably caused the greatest offence of all due to the choice of flag flown alongside. Feeling with many up here was that this evidenced the true intolerance to us. What logic I ask to deciding you fly the flag of ROI and then flying the flag of the province of Ulster alongside it???
Is the bigotry so severe within elements of irfu that the could not bring themselves to use a flag associated with the other country that makes up the Ireland team ie ni.
I know lots of friends, orangemen, etc grim and bear it and support ire rugby but there is a greater number like me who would love to support it especially with our players on the team. I often sit down with the intention of trying to support them but by the time we have got past the anthems etc I am supporting the other team. I can’t help it. I just want equality of treatment as Francie would say.
Thanks for your earlier comment. I have still a lot of work to do on my prejudice, but as you say the first step is recognising it.

Ps if they flew the tricolour and the ni flag side by side then that would honestly be transformative for me and many I know. I could then truly support the island team and would actually be a huge challenge to us who say we will never find a place or recognition in a UI

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why would northern nationalists agree to being still stuck in a statelet after reunification?

Where's the incentive to agree to this theoretical nonsense?

Are Northern Nationalists' concerns of such a scenario less legitimate than unionists wishes to keep the status quo or whatever this firm of autonomy would take?

You partitionists are all aware that NI exists and that unionists have what they want? It's up to unionism to sell the status quo to Nationalists. Something they have failed to do for 100 years.

That’s not what any polls say

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

That’s not what any polls say

Don't mind what polls say, just have a look at how effective the Stormont administration is working.


It doesn't look too promising at the moment.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

That’s not what any polls say

That doesn't answer any questions I posed to you.