How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I accept a fair degree of it is nuanced and misunderstanding.
When the teams united it was agreed at that they would, time about using north and south Location and time about gstq and Soldiers song and also swapping flags. This has not happened in recent decades if ever.
The change of flag for wc is interesting. Clearly some within the system wanted to dump the arrangement of not using the tricolour outside roi but this action probably caused the greatest offence of all due to the choice of flag flown alongside. Feeling with many up here was that this evidenced the true intolerance to us. What logic I ask to deciding you fly the flag of ROI and then flying the flag of the province of Ulster alongside it???
Is the bigotry so severe within elements of irfu that the could not bring themselves to use a flag associated with the other country that makes up the Ireland team ie ni.
I know lots of friends, orangemen, etc grim and bear it and support ire rugby but there is a greater number like me who would love to support it especially with our players on the team. I often sit down with the intention of trying to support them but by the time we have got past the anthems etc I am supporting the other team. I can’t help it. I just want equality of treatment as Francie would say.
Thanks for your earlier comment. I have still a lot of work to do on my prejudice, but as you say the first step is recognising it.

Ps if they flew the tricolour and the ni flag side by side then that would honestly be transformative for me and many I know. I could then truly support the island team and would actually be a huge challenge to us who say we will never find a place or recognition in a UI

Amazing again that a compromise situation that has worked fine for years without rancour and has benefited all, has made a 'victim' of poor you and your mates. Similar to the 'poor me' that goes on about the GFA and parades and marching.

The various compromises made towards differing identities barely register among supporters down here, one of whom I am myself.

Yeah_Right

downcow wrote: »

I accept a fair degree of it is nuanced and misunderstanding.
When the teams united it was agreed at that they would, time about using north and south Location and time about gstq and Soldiers song and also swapping flags. This has not happened in recent decades if ever.
The change of flag for wc is interesting. Clearly some within the system wanted to dump the arrangement of not using the tricolour outside roi but this action probably caused the greatest offence of all due to the choice of flag flown alongside. Feeling with many up here was that this evidenced the true intolerance to us. What logic I ask to deciding you fly the flag of ROI and then flying the flag of the province of Ulster alongside it???
Is the bigotry so severe within elements of irfu that the could not bring themselves to use a flag associated with the other country that makes up the Ireland team ie ni.
I know lots of friends, orangemen, etc grim and bear it and support ire rugby but there is a greater number like me who would love to support it especially with our players on the team. I often sit down with the intention of trying to support them but by the time we have got past the anthems etc I am supporting the other team. I can’t help it. I just want equality of treatment as Francie would say.
Thanks for your earlier comment. I have still a lot of work to do on my prejudice, but as you say the first step is recognising it.

Ps if they flew the tricolour and the ni flag side by side then that would honestly be transformative for me and many I know. I could then truly support the island team and would actually be a huge challenge to us who say we will never find a place or recognition in a UI

I have no idea why they went with the 2 flags at the RWC and not the IRFU one. Maybe it was a World Rugby decision, maybe it was the IRFU. I assume it was the Ulster flag with the tricolour. Yellow with a red cross and the red hand badge? Maybe it was white not yellow. Does that make a difference?

Out of curiosity, what is the NI flag? What do they fly at the Commonwealth Games for example?

I have to say that I didn't know anything about the agreement to play matches in the north and south. I've never heard of Ireland playing home games anywhere other than Dublin. I know the All Blacks played a match in Belfast 1980s against Ulster I think. I was a little kid and I asked my dad why people were singing GSTQ. He gave me a brief, simple rundown of Irish history and the Troubles and I realised that was the place we would see on the news where people kept blowing each other up. I remember being worried for the All Blacks safety after that.

Have to say that since I've lived here, I like the fact that the rugby team is for the whole island. It shows that you can all get along. There have been some good documentaries recently about it.

Sinbad_NI

IRFU signed a deal with Aviva that Irish matches can only be played in Aviva stadium.

Those elsewhere will be branded as Ireland A team or similar and no caps awarded.

I personally don't agree with this... but then again it's not my name on the loan to pay for the stadium. Pragmatism required.

Runaways

10-15 years

Pissing into an ever growing gale that only blows one direction here, downcow


But you seem to know this much at least.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

bubblypop wrote: »

it needs a complete change in the mindset of the population

I think it's you, and people like you, than need to change your mindset. A simple majority in the north ends the legitimacy of British rule in Ireland. There is no, frankly idiotic, requirement for everyone to get along:



in the north before we're allowed to end British rule.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it's you, and people like you, than need to change your mindset. A simple majority in the north ends the legitimacy of British rule in Ireland. There is no, frankly idiotic, requirement for everyone to get along:



in the north before we're allowed to end British rule.

The fact that you think it's perfectly OK to unite Ireland, while the people in 6 counties cannot get along with each other & are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over & over, just shows how it would never work.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

bubblypop wrote: »

The fact that you think it's perfectly OK to unite Ireland, while the people in 6 counties cannot get along with each other & are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over & over, just shows how it would never work.

Bit weird that you seem determined to set arbitrary requirements that 'everyone gets along'. How in the name of muppetry would you even measure that?

Read the Good Friday Agreement, there is no ridiculous requirement that 'everyone gets along' likes some sort of hippy commune.

Bubblypop.

jm08

20-30 years

bubblypop wrote: »

The fact that you think it's perfectly OK to unite Ireland, while the people in 6 counties cannot get along with each other & are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over & over, just shows how it would never work.

And pre-GFA NI was working well? Is that what you want to go back to?

Nationalists in Northern Ireland supported the GFA because it gave them some hope of a UI to be decided by referendum. You want to move the goalposts now and take that hope away?

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

jm08 wrote: »

You want to move the goalposts now and take that hope away?

The partitonists don't seem to realise that a pro-UI vote in the north ends the legitimacy of British rule in all of Ireland (if it ever was legitimate).

Runaways

10-15 years

That’s an extremely limited and childish view BP.

nowhere does t say ‘we all have to get along or else’. People up north do get on. In fact a UI scenario could be the best thing that could happen for the more extreme end of unionism as a ‘culture’. It’s all but dead as it is and everything it stands for repellent to the majority of ordinary people up there..a UI could see it have a renaissance of sorts and protected within a new constitution.

I’d say they need to get with the times, they need an extremely talented brand manager almost to take them into today rather than the ugly sectarian bigoted archaic space they currently inhabit and give them a makeover to at least make them an understandable entity if not a sexy one. They’re dying out rapidly even DC acknowledges that much.

We gave the travelling community separate ethnic status enshrined in the constitution and then just went back to ignoring them. It’ll be the same for Unionists. Ok you’re different. Here we are recognizing that. Sound? Grand. On yis go with yer marches etc.

Bit I don’t get as downcow poorly illustrates is somehow they’re under threat and well round them up or something.
He has threatened violence in a UI scenario tho so he’s probably coming at it through that same lens. Whereas the rest of us are like ‘you’re different. Good for you. Carry on’.
Can’t seem to explain to him at least how little anyone certainly within Dublin gives any regard to anything in the country outside the m50

Runaways

10-15 years

jm08 wrote: »

And pre-GFA NI was working well? Is that what you want to go back to?

Nationalists in Northern Ireland supported the GFA because it gave them some hope of a UI to be decided by referendum. You want to move the goalposts now and take that hope away?

What absolute horsesh!t

People in Ireland voted for the GFA primarily to bring about an end to the violence. Nationalists up north had another reason which was to finally have equality and parity of esteem. Finally. After decades of being crushed and brutalized and discriminated against by unionism and British rule.

Nice attempt at rewriting history But UI wasn’t in any way why anyone on the island voted for the GFA.

Infini

10-15 years

bubblypop wrote: »

The fact that you think it's perfectly OK to unite Ireland, while the people in 6 counties cannot get along with each other & are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over & over, just shows how it would never work.

To put it in perspective though do you really think a majority of people in NI are gonna allow themselves to be dragged down into the gutter when Boris the Bollocks and his corrupt and self centered friends utterly make a huge mess of things and use NI as a backdoor to mess with the EU?

Let's be clear here people were happy enough to leave things well enough alone until Agony Arlene and the Dumbass Unionist Party got involved and cosied up to the conservative retards who have pushed lies and deciet from day one for their own narrow agendas. If a UI happens it wont be because NI has suddenly become a bastion of love and caring it'll be because the likes of Boris will have made such an absolute fúck up of things that a UI becomes the LESSER of 2 evils and where it's better to be one nation on one island than be tied to a broken Westminster goverment that is happy to throw them under the bus at the first oppertunity than give a damn about their wellbeing?

downcow

Yes the colour of the flag is very significant.
No one has said why the flag associated with ni ie the white background was not used and yet the flag associated with roi was used. But then how dare I look to be treated with some respect and equality.

Yes the flag used at the commonwealth games is the white background, normally referred to as the NI flag (holds breath for a history lesson from Francie et al about, it’s not an official flag lalala)

Wikipedia I think will give you a full run down on all the promises made when the teams were united. The deal with aviva was just a way of irfu ensuring that if they ever played a game in Belfast again the they could use this as an excuse not to play gstq - absolutely no logic but sure is that a surprise.

A very good reason to avoid like the plague, any talk of a united football team

Runaways

10-15 years

One extra and huge benefit of a UI would be vastly improved educational outcomes for kids in NI. Reading certain posts it’s clear that alone would be a huge benefit to some.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

That’s an extremely limited and childish view BP.

nowhere does t say ‘we all have to get along or else’. People up north do get on. In fact a UI scenario could be the best thing that could happen for the more extreme end of unionism as a ‘culture’. It’s all but dead as it is and everything it stands for repellent to the majority of ordinary people up there..a UI could see it have a renaissance of sorts and protected within a new constitution.

I’d say they need to get with the times, they need an extremely talented brand manager almost to take them into today rather than the ugly sectarian bigoted archaic space they currently inhabit and give them a makeover to at least make them an understandable entity if not a sexy one. They’re dying out rapidly even DC acknowledges that much.

We gave the travelling community separate ethnic status enshrined in the constitution and then just went back to ignoring them. It’ll be the same for Unionists. Ok you’re different. Here we are recognizing that. Sound? Grand. On yis go with yer marches etc.

Bit I don’t get as downcow poorly illustrates is somehow they’re under threat and well round them up or something.
He has threatened violence in a UI scenario tho so he’s probably coming at it through that same lens. Whereas the rest of us are like ‘you’re different. Good for you. Carry on’.
Can’t seem to explain to him at least how little anyone certainly within Dublin gives any regard to anything in the country outside the m50

Don’t know where to start with this. Our culture has never been stronger. I said the OO is in decline. It is archaic and operates with pomp and ceremonies. Not attractive to young people just like all similar organisations and churches around the world.
The loyalist band scene is booming and huge crowds of young people are attending parades. The whole Ulster Scots scene and Scottish dancing is flourishing (not the language lol). The ni football team is loved and permanently sold out and away trips are a ni culturefest. We watch British tv, support British football clubs(incl celtic lol), watch British soaps, read British papers. We are leaving eu with the rest of uk, I could go on and on. In fact I struggle to think of anything Irish in my life. And you know, bar the parades, nationalists up here are equally as connected to their Britishness except they also have strong connections to irishness through gaa etc.
So dream on if you think our culture is dying.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

One extra and huge benefit of a UI would be vastly improved educational outcomes for kids in NI. Reading certain posts it’s clear that alone would be a huge benefit to some.

Lol 😂 And congrats on you excellent grasp of the queens English

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Don’t know where to start with this. Our culture has never been stronger. I said the OO is in decline. It is archaic and operates with pomp and ceremonies. Not attractive to young people just like all similar organisations and churches around the world.
The loyalist band scene is booming and huge crowds of young people are attending parades. The whole Ulster Scots scene and Scottish dancing is flourishing (not the language lol). The ni football team is loved and permanently sold out and away trips are a ni culturefest. We watch British tv, support British football clubs(incl celtic lol), watch British soaps, read British papers. We are leaving eu with the rest of uk, I could go on and on. In fact I struggle to think of anything Irish in my life. And you know, bar the parades, nationalists up here are equally as connected to their Britishness except they also have strong connections to irishness through gaa etc.
So dream on if you think our culture is dying.

Starting to behave as normal is not evidence of anything. Interest in sport and music is normal.

You are part of Irish culture, like it or not. And you forgot to mention the huge uptake in 'Irish' passports and citizenship.

Runaways

10-15 years

Back to the precious flegs!!!

In the absence of any culture in a quantifiable and verifiable sense, let’s just rant about our precious fleg! Which is an Irish symbol to begin with but you’d know that if you bothered to try. As is the flag of ulster btw

Runaways

10-15 years

Hey DC there was a poll in on of the papers here yesterday. Have a look.

Sleep tight.

SF 35%
FF 20%
FG 18%

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Starting to behave as normal is not evidence of anything. Interest in sport and music is normal.

You are part of Irish culture, like it or not. And you forgot to mention the huge uptake in 'Irish' passports and citizenship.

I honestly can’t identify much Irish culture in my life.
I will likely join the ‘huge uptake’ and get myself an Irish passport simply for convenience and flash it when I want to travel freely in eu eg following NI etc, but I will continue to hold my British passport as my true identity. Might even keep my Irish one inside my British one lol

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Hey DC there was a poll in on of the papers here yesterday. Have a look.

Sleep tight.

SF 35%
FF 20%
FG 18%

It’s about as relevant to me as a poll in France But if it makes you feel good I am happy for you

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

We watch British tv, support British football clubs(incl celtic lol), watch British soaps, read British papers.

Yeah it's largely the same down here and not very many people would describe themselves as British. You'll feel right at home in a United Ireland so there's that.

We are leaving eu with the rest of uk

We'll see how long that lasts.

I struggle to think of anything Irish in my life.

You've been living in Ireland for generations. I actually feel sadness for you that you expend so much effort avoiding that which is part of your own history and heritage.

Nationalists up here are equally as connected to their Britishness

Haha, because they watch Coronation Street? I've said it before there is nowhere on Earth more immersed in British culture than Ireland but it's not good enough for you guys, you'd have Union Flags on every lamp-post just to comfort yourselves because it pains you that Ireland is not Britain and never will be.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah it's largely the same down here and not very many people would describe themselves as British. You'll feel right at home in a United Ireland so there's that.



We'll see how long that lasts.



You've been living in Ireland for generations. I actually feel sadness for you that you expend so much effort avoiding that which is part of your own history and heritage.



Haha, because they watch Coronation Street? I've said it before there is nowhere on Earth more immersed in British culture than Ireland but it's not good enough for you guys, you'd have Union Flags on every lamp-post just to comfort yourselves because it pains you that Ireland is not Britain and never will be.

So tell me what is your Irish culture about. What is it in reality

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah it's largely the same down here and not very many people would describe themselves as British. You'll feel right at home in a United Ireland so there's that.



We'll see how long that lasts.



You've been living in Ireland for generations. I actually feel sadness for you that you expend so much effort avoiding that which is part of your own history and heritage.



Haha, because they watch Coronation Street? I've said it before there is nowhere on Earth more immersed in British culture than Ireland but it's not good enough for you guys, you'd have Union Flags on every lamp-post just to comfort yourselves because it pains you that Ireland is not Britain and never will be.

Paisley knew he was Irish and had no issue with it. Probably because he got outside the country and seen that there was no getting away from it.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

So tell me what is your Irish culture about. What is it in reality

A big plate of spuds and the twinkle in a pig's eye.

Here, knock yourself out.

Funnily enough your crowd are part of our culture too because goodness knows it's completely alien to the British.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A big plate of spuds and the twinkle in a pig's eye.

Here, knock yourself out.

Funnily enough your crowd are part of our culture too because goodness knows it's completely alien to the British.

Yeah interesting article I do think ni has a culture that in many ways is distinct from Britain and roi.

Runaways

10-15 years

Yeah they have marches banging drums and wearing funny hats and sashes all over Britain every weekend. Almost identical to NI
Eyeroll implied.


Strangely enough Britain itself is weirdly bereft of any culture too if you look at it. I mean what do they have outside the monarchy and the national obsession with world wars they think they singlehandedly won. That’s all really.

Guess you could say brexit is a cultural thing..damning indictment on them if it is.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Yeah they have marches banging drums and wearing funny hats and sashes all over Britain every weekend. Almost identical to NI
Eyeroll implied.


Strangely enough Britain itself is weirdly bereft of any culture too if you look at it. I mean what do they have outside the monarchy and the national obsession with world wars they think they singlehandedly won. That’s all really.

Guess you could say brexit is a cultural thing..damning indictment on them if it is.

I suppose something that strikes me still when I visit England is the amazing diversity of cultures and peoples.

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I suppose something that strikes me still when I visit England is the amazing diversity of cultures and peoples.

It would strike you as odd. NI isn’t exactly inclusive or diverse.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

It would strike you as odd. NI isn’t exactly inclusive or diverse.

And I guess you think the whole roi is lol