How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ireland are facing off against Great Britain in the Prestbury Cup at Cheltenham this week, where does your loyalties lie Downcow?

Not my sport and completely uninterested And if these two teams were playing each other at any sport I couldn’t see me supporting either. In no ni players involved in either team then my allegiance would prob go to GB.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

He claims to be a strong supporter of the GFA (which accommodates a United Ireland) while simultaneously saying that he doesn't know if he would remain peaceful if NI ceased to exist.

These are wholly incompatible positions to claim to hold.

You added the word strong.
I see no incompatibility in voting for gfa and working to ensure ni stays in existence.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

It is ironic that fionn and mates use an attack on me about not answering questions, to avoid answering questions.
I will answer any question you ask but I have not the energy to answer every point in elongated diatribe
I asked for real video evidence and then I could comment on reality and context (unlike you and mates who ignore my videos posted)
But I will try to respond to your vague comments.
Brian Robinson memorial. This (I believe) is a fairly fringe event in a 100% loyalist area Certainly not something I would attend or support but like Francie says people should be allowed to remember their dead
The famine song - depends on context and where it is sing. I am not one for sanitising the whole place. I do get the humour of it if sung at a rangers celtic game in that context. I’ve never attended a rangers and never heard it anywhere live. I would be thoroughly disgusted if I heard it at an ni game but I never have.
If this song is genuinely hurtful then I’d like to learn.
No surrender. I suppose very like chuckie ar la In a loyalist setting its fine If used to annoy other community then it is unacceptable. In the middle of gstq it’s disgusting.


I won’t avoid questions unlike you and your mates

As I said, always an excuse or justification or prevarication when its your ones, always wrong and evil when its themmuns.

You're a walking trope, downcow.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

I see no incompatibility in voting for gfa and working to ensure ni stays in existence.

But you've shifted position now, unsurprisingly.

downcow wrote: »

I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.

The threat here is that you might use violence to prevent a United Ireland (the end of NI).

So not happy with the will of the vast majority of the Irish people 100 years ago, you cleave off a sectarian one-party ethno-state for yourselves, where you treated the minority like crap, you now threaten violence to maintain it if the people there decide they've had enough of it?

Honestly - you've been indulged by the British and Irish for far too long. Enough is enough.

ittakestwo

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Not my sport and completely uninterested And if these two teams were playing each other at any sport I couldn’t see me supporting either. In no ni players involved in either team then my allegiance would prob go to GB.

This is something I dont get. You're not from the Island of Great Britain but the island of Ireland. I get that untionist wanted Ireland to remain part of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and obviously northern ireland has. But why would you be up for a place your not from (Great Britain) over a place you are from (Ireland) if they were to play against one another.

Hamsterchops

ittakestwo wrote: »

This is something I dont get. You're not from the Island of Great Britain but the island of Ireland. I get that untionist wanted Ireland to remain part of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and obviously northern ireland has. But why would you be up for a place your not from (Great Britain) over a place you are from (Ireland) if they were to play against one another.

Having lived in Britain for a spell I do totally understand where unionism is coming from.

The thing is, from a British (unionist perspective) we live on a small group of islands, Great Britain & Ireland only 12 miles apart, humans travelling too & frow for millennia, blood lines tied & bonded, strong cultural connections on these islands too.

We've also had the plantation of Ulster, hence 'Ulster Scots' which ties Northern Ireland in particular to Scotland, and by extension the rest of the island of GB, which is so close to us in so many ways.

It would be very strange would it not, if there was no feelings of connection between the two islands, hence so many on the island of Ireland identify with being British & wanting to remain part of this small family of islands, with Britain & Britishness being the dominant cultural force.

^This is the Unionist way^.

On the other hand you have Irish Republicanism which has always seaked to separate these islands (Unionists say artificially) so that this island is separated from our neighbors and that we are not part of "their family"!

So who's right? Are Britain & Ireland (as Unionists see it) 'family' ? Or, are the two islands (as Republicans see it) foreign & totally sperate to each other?

We in the ROI broke away politically so that we could distance ourselves from next door, Unionists on the other hand don't want any distance between Ireland & Britain, hence even the existing 12 miles is too far for them.

Time to build a bridge me thinks

downcow

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Having lived in Britain for a spell I do totally understand where unionism is coming from.

The thing is, from a British (unionist perspective) we live on a small group of islands, Great Britain & Ireland only 12 miles apart, humans travelling too & frow for millennia, blood lines tied & bonded, strong cultural connections on these islands too.

We've also had the plantation of Ulster, hence 'Ulster Scots' which ties Northern Ireland in particular to Scotland, and by extension the rest of the island of GB, which is so close to us in so many ways.

It would be very strange would it not, if there was no feelings of connection between the two islands, hence so many on the island of Ireland identify with being British & wanting to remain part of this small family of islands, with Britain & Britishness being the dominant cultural force.

^This is the Unionist way^.

On the other hand you have Irish Republicanism which has always seaked to separate these islands (Unionists say artificially) so that this island is separated from our neighbors and that we are not part of "their family"!

So who's right? Are Britain & Ireland (as Unionists see it) 'family' ? Or, are the two islands (as Republicans see it) foreign & totally sperate to each other?

We in the ROI broke away politically so that we could distance ourselves from next door, Unionists on the other hand don't want any distance between Ireland & Britain, hence even the existing 12 miles is too far for them.

Time to build a bridge me thinks

Excellent post. Nuance that some here just don’t get or don’t want to admit they get.
Very much appreciate the understanding.

ittakestwo

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Having lived in Britain for a spell I do totally understand where unionism is coming from.

The thing is, from a British (unionist perspective) we live on a small group of islands, Great Britain & Ireland only 12 miles apart, humans travelling too & frow for millennia, blood lines tied & bonded, strong cultural connections on these islands too.

We've also had the plantation of Ulster, hence 'Ulster Scots' which ties Northern Ireland in particular to Scotland, and by extension the rest of the island of GB, which is so close to us in so many ways.

It would be very strange would it not, if there was no feelings of connection between the two islands, hence so many on the island of Ireland identify with being British & wanting to remain part of this small family of islands, with Britain & Britishness being the dominant cultural force.

^This is the Unionist way^.

On the other hand you have Irish Republicanism which has always seaked to separate these islands (Unionists say artificially) so that this island is separated from our neighbors and that we are not part of "their family"!

So who's right? Are Britain & Ireland (as Unionists see it) 'family' ? Or, are the two islands (as Republicans see it) foreign & totally sperate to each other?

We in the ROI broke away politically so that we could distance ourselves from next door, Unionists on the other hand don't want any distance between Ireland & Britain, hence even the existing 12 miles is too far for them.

Time to build a bridge me thinks

But take Scotland for instance. Most people in Scotland that voted remain will identify as being Scottish as that is where they are from. But it seems alot of unionists wont identify as being Irish despite that they are also Irish.

Take millenials generation in UK. Mostly they will identify as being English Scottish or Welsh if they are from those places. Very few identify as British. Yet a unionists millenial will identify as British. It seems its taboo for a unionists to say they are Irish.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

This is something I dont get. You're not from the Island of Great Britain but the island of Ireland. I get that untionist wanted Ireland to remain part of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and obviously northern ireland has. But why would you be up for a place your not from (Great Britain) over a place you are from (Ireland) if they were to play against one another.

You sound very genuine, unlike some posters here who have descended into spin and attack.
Actually the post following yours answers this better than I can. But in addition to that post getting under the skin as to why I feel closer to Britain than roi. We have a deep connection to britian including fighting two world wars together, using same currency, same health service, etc etc. People on here tell me that ni is not a country. If they are correct then that ties us even tighter to ‘our’ nation of UK.
So I honestly don’t get why anyone would be surprised that we wouldn’t want our nation to win any sport

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

But take Scotland for instance. Most people in Scotland that voted remain will identify as being Scottish as that is where they are from. But it seems alot of unionists wont identify as being Irish despite that they are also Irish.

Take millenials generation in UK. Mostly they will identify as being English Scottish or Welsh if they are from those places. Very few identify as British. Yet a unionists millenial will identify as British. It seems its taboo for a unionists to say they are Irish.

I say this with respect as I feel you are sincere. Are you not hearing my endless posts in which I describe myself as Northern Irish? You may disagree and that’s fine, but I am as Northern Irish as anyone is Scottish, Welsh, etc.
Those who want to create an atmosphere where unionist can talk about a shared future on this island needs to first of all give us the respect of recognising our country and nationality and sense of belonging.
I completely understand and respect why some nationalists who live on NI will actually support the neighbouring team (roi) if we face each other. They also live in the uk but I also respect if we meet Ireland at the olympics that thy may want to support the nation the don’t live in. It’s complex and some on here can’t show respect for the others position (not including you in that)

All I can see from reading this this thread is that some people are either completely unable to see others point of view of they just don't give a crap.

Downcow has, from what I have read tried to show what it feels like from a unionist perspective & gets nothing but abuse in return.
Im not surprised that they don't want to be in a United Ireland, when their views are totally ignored & ridiculed.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Having lived in Britain for a spell I do totally understand where unionism is coming from.

The thing is, from a British (unionist perspective) we live on a small group of islands, Great Britain & Ireland only 12 miles apart, humans travelling too & frow for millennia, blood lines tied & bonded, strong cultural connections on these islands too.

We've also had the plantation of Ulster, hence 'Ulster Scots' which ties Northern Ireland in particular to Scotland, and by extension the rest of the island of GB, which is so close to us in so many ways.

It would be very strange would it not, if there was no feelings of connection between the two islands, hence so many on the island of Ireland identify with being British & wanting to remain part of this small family of islands, with Britain & Britishness being the dominant cultural force.

^This is the Unionist way^.

On the other hand you have Irish Republicanism which has always seaked to separate these islands (Unionists say artificially) so that this island is separated from our neighbors and that we are not part of "their family"!

So who's right? Are Britain & Ireland (as Unionists see it) 'family' ? Or, are the two islands (as Republicans see it) foreign & totally sperate to each other?

We in the ROI broke away politically so that we could distance ourselves from next door, Unionists on the other hand don't want any distance between Ireland & Britain, hence even the existing 12 miles is too far for them.

Time to build a bridge me thinks

Certainly there are deep cultural ties between Britain and Ireland, but let's not whitewash history and present the Ulster plantation and our subsequent history as a benign mixing of people. There are certain similarities that came about due to proximity, of course. Equally, there are certain similarities because parts of our unique culture and heritage were systemically and intentionally wiped out. I see that as a great loss to the cultural fabric of our small part of this world.

We all know that the Irish weren't, 'part of the family', at least those who weren't of British/Planter stock weren't. In the eyes of the British at the time, the native Irish were a lesser people to be subjugated, not welcomed as part of the family.

With that in mind, it's entirely natural that there was a backlash, and many sought independence from British rule. Equally it is entirely natural that those used to being in the positions of power and control feel a great deal of loss when dragged down to equal standing.

All that being said, I certainly feel that enough time has passed, and times have changed sufficiently to move on from that. I certainly hold no ill will towards the average British person, I count many among my friends.

I do feel that Unionism in the North is somewhat guided by a deep, lingering fear that we're trudging slowly towards the inevitable, leading many to over-egg the pudding, giving us the, 'as British as Finchley' type over the top rejection of the Irish side of their heritage.

While I personally aspire towards unification, I don't want it to be, nor do I expect it will occur through, 'outbreeding' the Unionists. I think there has been great progress among the younger generations of the North in moving away from the militant sides of Loyalist and Republican politics, more and more are accepting that their heritage is mixed, and uniquely shaped by this. The sooner we move away from Unionists claiming to be, 'as British as Finchley' and Nationalists claiming to be no different to a Cork native and appreciate the blend of the two which has shaped us, the sooner we can move forward together.

One could look at the increasing embrace of the, 'Northern Irish' identity over British or Irish as signs of progress towards this. Whether this leads to a stronger embrace of the status quo, or an increased realisation that the folk a mile across the border aren't boogeymen coming to take their culture, who knows. It should at least lead to a less tumultuous society.

I've rambled on way too long on what was supposed to be a short reply, so I'll leave it at that.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Having lived in Britain for a spell I do totally understand where unionism is coming from.

The thing is, from a British (unionist perspective) we live on a small group of islands, Great Britain & Ireland only 12 miles apart, humans travelling too & frow for millennia, blood lines tied & bonded, strong cultural connections on these islands too.

We've also had the plantation of Ulster, hence 'Ulster Scots' which ties Northern Ireland in particular to Scotland, and by extension the rest of the island of GB, which is so close to us in so many ways.

It would be very strange would it not, if there was no feelings of connection between the two islands, hence so many on the island of Ireland identify with being British & wanting to remain part of this small family of islands, with Britain & Britishness being the dominant cultural force.

^This is the Unionist way^.

On the other hand you have Irish Republicanism which has always seaked to separate these islands (Unionists say artificially) so that this island is separated from our neighbors and that we are not part of "their family"!

So who's right? Are Britain & Ireland (as Unionists see it) 'family' ? Or, are the two islands (as Republicans see it) foreign & totally sperate to each other?

We in the ROI broke away politically so that we could distance ourselves from next door, Unionists on the other hand don't want any distance between Ireland & Britain, hence even the existing 12 miles is too far for them.

Time to build a bridge me thinks

These simpering, inferiority complex type posts really intrigue me.
You present the Unionist case as being noble and earnest and ultimately right. And the 'British' stance as benign and culturally engaged.

The 'republicans' of course are presented as separatist and destructive, if not a little sinister.

Where you out at the toilet when they did the history of what Britain did here? And what Unionists did when they cleaved off it's bigoted sectarian statelet?

Why would it surprise anyone that we might want to 'separate' from them and become a free sovereign entity?

By the way, I know of NO republican that wants to be 'unfriendly' or totally separate from Britain. NOT ONE.
I know plenty who want to be a proud Irish islanders with a different society to one that has chosen to be monarchical and class driven.

*I am assuming you are southern Irish here, based on your posting elsewhere.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Certainly there are deep cultural ties between Britain and Ireland, but let's not whitewash history and present the Ulster plantation and our subsequent history as a benign mixing of people. There are certain similarities that came about due to proximity, of course. Equally, there are certain similarities because parts of our unique culture and heritage were systemically and intentionally wiped out. I see that as a great loss to the cultural fabric of our small part of this world.

We all know that the Irish weren't, 'part of the family', at least those who weren't of British/Planter stock weren't. In the eyes of the British at the time, the native Irish were a lesser people to be subjugated, not welcomed as part of the family.

With that in mind, it's entirely natural that there was a backlash, and many sought independence from British rule. Equally it is entirely natural that those used to being in the positions of power and control feel a great deal of loss when dragged down to equal standing.

All that being said, I certainly feel that enough time has passed, and times have changed sufficiently to move on from that. I certainly hold no ill will towards the average British person, I count many among my friends.

I do feel that Unionism in the North is somewhat guided by a deep, lingering fear that we're trudging slowly towards the inevitable, leading many to over-egg the pudding, giving us the, 'as British as Finchley' type over the top rejection of the Irish side of their heritage.

While I personally aspire towards unification, I don't want it to be, nor do I expect it will occur through, 'outbreeding' the Unionists. I think there has been great progress among the younger generations of the North in moving away from the militant sides of Loyalist and Republican politics, more and more are accepting that their heritage is mixed, and uniquely shaped by this. The sooner we move away from Unionists claiming to be, 'as British as Finchley' and Nationalists claiming to be no different to a Cork native and appreciate the blend of the two which has shaped us, the sooner we can move forward together.

One could look at the increasing embrace of the, 'Northern Irish' identity over British or Irish as signs of progress towards this. Whether this leads to a stronger embrace of the status quo, or an increased realisation that the folk a mile across the border aren't boogeymen coming to take their culture, who knows. It should at least lead to a less tumultuous society.

I've rambled on way too long on what was supposed to be a short reply, so I'll leave it at that.

I completely agree with the jist of your post.
It does miss though that the largest group of unionists in the north are Presbyterian. They were even more penalised than catholics ( hence ‘black bast*rds from black mouths from only blackberries to eat). We were key in sustaining the Irish language, the gaa, fighting for united ireland etc. So what went wrong? What was done to our ancestors to turn us so anti lots of that? That’s a dramatic change and we know why. So let’s not airbrush out what the Catholic Irish community done to their Presbyterian neighbours. We may not have been in this mess if there had not been such sectarian attitudes against us. But that is a very long time ago and we are where we are.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

These simpering, inferiority complex type posts really intrigue me.
You present the Unionist case as being noble and earnest and ultimately right. And the 'British' stance as benign and culturally engaged.

The 'republicans' of course are presented as separatist and destructive, if not a little sinister.

Where you out at the toilet when they did the history of what Britain did here? And what Unionists did when they cleaved off it's bigoted sectarian statelet?

Why would it surprise anyone that we might want to 'separate' from them and become a free sovereign entity?

By the way, I know of NO republican that wants to be 'unfriendly' or totally separate from Britain. NOT ONE.
I know plenty who want to be a proud Irish islanders with a different society to one that has chosen to be monarchical and class driven.

*I am assuming you are southern Irish here, based on your posting elsewhere.

Wooooshh. You just don’t get what was said in the post you are responding to.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Wooooshh. You just don’t get what was said in the post you are responding to.

I do.

And I have dealt with what he has said in answers to you previously. I just wanted to point out an attitude unique to Irish partitionists.

How are you feeling this morning downcow? Did you have pro GFA or anti GFA porridge today?

ittakestwo

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I say this with respect as I feel you are sincere. Are you not hearing my endless posts in which I describe myself as Northern Irish? You may disagree and that’s fine, but I am as Northern Irish as anyone is Scottish, Welsh, etc.
Those who want to create an atmosphere where unionist can talk about a shared future on this island needs to first of all give us the respect of recognising our country and nationality and sense of belonging.
I completely understand and respect why some nationalists who live on NI will actually support the neighbouring team (roi) if we face each other. They also live in the uk but I also respect if we meet Ireland at the olympics that thy may want to support the nation the don’t live in. It’s complex and some on here can’t show respect for the others position (not including you in that)

So you are unionist and would identify as Northan Irish aswell as British. Would I be right by saying a lot unionists would only describe themselves as British? You describe yourself as Northan Irish as much as anyone is Scotish or Welsh. Could you say you are Irish as much as anyone is Scotish or Welsh or does Irish mean to most NI untionist you are either from ROI or a NI nationalist? Would it be very uncommon for a unionist to describe themselves as British and Irish?

Is this not a big problem in NI. How binary people identify as and that children are also still segregated into nationalist or unionist schools.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

These simpering, inferiority complex type posts really intrigue me.
You present the Unionist case as being noble and earnest and ultimately right. And the 'British' stance as benign and culturally engaged.

The 'republicans' of course are presented as separatist and destructive, if not a little sinister.

Where you out at the toilet when they did the history of what Britain did here? And what Unionists did when they cleaved off it's bigoted sectarian statelet?

Why would it surprise anyone that we might want to 'separate' from them and become a free sovereign entity?

By the way, I know of NO republican that wants to be 'unfriendly' or totally separate from Britain. NOT ONE.
I know plenty who want to be a proud Irish islanders with a different society to one that has chosen to be monarchical and class driven.

*I am assuming you are southern Irish here, based on your posting elsewhere.

Francie, your bile and bitterness against anything Unionist or British is plain to see-its depressing to read and contradicts your assertion you're not bigoted.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

I completely agree with the jist of your post.
It does miss though that the largest group of unionists in the north are Presbyterian. They were even more penalised than catholics ( hence ‘black bast*rds from black mouths from only blackberries to eat). We were key in sustaining the Irish language, the gaa, fighting for united ireland etc. So what went wrong? What was done to our ancestors to turn us so anti lots of that? That’s a dramatic change and we know why. So let’s not airbrush out what the Catholic Irish community done to their Presbyterian neighbours. We may not have been in this mess if there had not been such sectarian attitudes against us. But that is a very long time ago and we are where we are.

Certainly, Downcow....Irish Presbyterians were also key in the formation and initial armed struggle of the IRA.

But you highlight the problem with our generation, always back to, 'well what about themmuns'. Hopefully those younger will do better. We could harp back and forth, on cause and effect, you'd blame the provos for all the ills of the North, I'd blame the discriminatory environment that the British establishment and Ulster protestantism created for causing an environment where the Provos could firm and grow, and indeed be seen by many as their only option. Ultimately while we continue to try and insist that it was a simple black and white issue, with one side as angels and the other as demons, we go nowhere.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie, your bile and bitterness against anything Unionist or British is plain to see-its depressing to read and contradicts your assertion you're not bigoted.

What 'bile and bitterness' Rob?

The history is the history. As a sovereign nation we have put the hand of friendship out.
We, and I mean 'we' have no axe to grind with Britain over the past, as long as the mistakes of the past are put right.

Britain has said in the GFA that it accepts my aspirations for this island, and my right to work towards that aspiration, and has accepted the rights of my fellow countrymen in northern Ireland, which is fair enough for me. It STILL isn't with belligerent Unionism.
If 'Unionists' and especially 'belligerent Unionists' think they are going to be told a simpering, false story from me, they are mistaken.
Republicans, made many mistakes and did many awful and wrong things, but the simple fact is they would never have been done had not this island been wrongly and disastrously partitioned.
I am happy that the British now realise that and that it is for us Irish to decide our future without outside impediment. That is to be welcomed and is ACTUALLY real and genuine neighbourliness.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'bile and bitterness' Rob?

The history is the history. As a sovereign nation we have put the hand of friendship out.
We, and I mean 'we' have no axe to grind with Britain over the past, as long as the mistakes of the past are put right.

Britain has said in the GFA that it accepts my aspirations for this island, and my right to work towards that aspiration, and has accepted the rights of my fellow countrymen in northern Ireland, which is fair enough for me. It STILL isn't with belligerent Unionism.
If 'Unionists' and especially 'belligerent Unionists' think they are going to be told a simpering, false story from me, they are mistaken.
Republicans, made many mistakes and did many awful and wrong things, but the simple fact is they would never have been done had not this island been wrongly and disastrously partitioned.
I am happy that the British now realise that and that it is for us Irish to decide our future without outside impediment. That is to be welcomed and is ACTUALLY real and genuine neighbourliness.

You talk as if Britain owes you something and so must atone for its past sins-thats gone francie-you need to move on,reading some of the other posts by people like Fionn1952 for example they have moved on and aren't stuck in the past.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You talk as if Britain owes you something and so must atone for its past sins-thats gone francie-you need to move on,reading some of the other posts by people like Fionn1952 for example they have moved on and aren't stuck in the past.

Britain needs to help fix the problems it was instrumental in creating.
Are you willing to forget what republicans did in order to 'move on' Rob? Is downcow coming across as one who is willing to forget, wipe the slate clean and build a fair and inclusive society?

He is after all the one who has threatened violence if any change is made to the constitutional status.

This 'moving on' malarkey seems to be fine when you only ask one side to do it.

downcow's motives and disingenuous argument has been called out by some, and that seems to be annoying you. No surprise there.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain needs to help fix the problems it was instrumental in creating.
Are you willing to forget what republicans did in order to 'move on' Rob? Is downcow coming across as one who is willing to forget, wipe the slate clean and build a fair and inclusive society?

He is after all the one who has threatened violence if any change is made to the constitutional status.

This 'moving on' malarkey seems to be fine when you only ask one side to do it.

downcow's motives and disingenuous argument has been called out by some, and that seems to be annoying you. No surprise there.

I don't have any grudges about anyone francie and couldn't care less about whether a person is protestant or catholic.
I think bonfires should be banned or at least properly organised and I don't think marching past churches or singing offensive songs should be allowed.
Downcow's view of things encourages discussion which is a good thing imo but entrenchment on either side doesn't help the situation.
I don't agree with everything he says but think he's more willing to listen and engage than you.
I agree with some things you say but your dislike of anything Unionist/British clouds your reasoning. .

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't have any grudges about anyone francie and couldn't care less about whether a person is protestant or catholic.

I have no problems with religion...I am married to a Protestant and my children are raised in that faith.

I think bonfires should be banned or at least properly organised and I don't think marching past churches or singing offensive songs should be allowed.

As do I.

Downcow's view of things encourages discussion which is a good thing imo but entrenchment on either side doesn't help the situation.
I don't agree with everything he says but think he's more willing to listen and engage than you.
I agree with some things you say but your dislike of anything Unionist/British clouds your reasoning. .

I mix and work with Unionists all the time. I am the one saying 'Nobody has a problem with parades if they are respectful.

downcow is the one threatening violence if he doesn't get his way. downcow is the one downplaying what happens around celebrations of HIS culture.

He is being conversed with. What he isn't getting from me and others is a free pass to lay blame without first fully addressing Unionism's significant part in creating an abnormal society.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Republicans, made many mistakes and did many awful and wrong things, but the simple fact is they would never have been done had not this island been wrongly and disastrously partitioned.
.

So they’ve only done awful wrong things since partition??????

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

So you are unionist and would identify as Northan Irish aswell as British. Would I be right by saying a lot unionists would only describe themselves as British? You describe yourself as Northan Irish as much as anyone is Scotish or Welsh. Could you say you are Irish as much as anyone is Scotish or Welsh or does Irish mean to most NI untionist you are either from ROI or a NI nationalist? Would it be very uncommon for a unionist to describe themselves as British and Irish?

Is this not a big problem in NI. How binary people identify as and that children are also still segregated into nationalist or unionist schools.

Individualism and diversity is in the very dna of Ulster Scots Presbyterian roots.
I think unionists would describe themselves in various ways and some would be very comfortable with the term irish. My go to term would be Notthern Irish the British. It the very reason the term PUL is used. I was in the very diverse room that came up with the term because in the room could not get an umbrella word to describe themselves and their outlook.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain needs to help fix the problems it was instrumental in creating.
Are you willing to forget what republicans did in order to 'move on' Rob? Is downcow coming across as one who is willing to forget, wipe the slate clean and build a fair and inclusive society?

He is after all the one who has threatened violence if any change is made to the constitutional status.

This 'moving on' malarkey seems to be fine when you only ask one side to do it.

downcow's motives and disingenuous argument has been called out by some, and that seems to be annoying you. No surprise there.

Here we go. Spin spin spin. I apparently am now threatening violence. I did say I would try to remain peaceful in the circumstances where ‘after unification?’, we would be prevented from working democratically to create a separate state because people like you think that has to be a final destination. There are no final destinations in politics/nationality. Always fluidly possible.

But be reassured Francie. I remained peaceful in the face of the sectarian onslaught the ira delivered to my community locally, so I’ll hardly take up the gun at my age.
Can you say the same if roi walked away and left you forever in the uk?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So they’ve only done awful wrong things since partition??????

See thread title.

See my consistent stance - conflict/war is always awful and always wrong. Ideally they should never happen nor be allowed happen.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Here we go. Spin spin spin. I apparently am now threatening violence. I did say I would try to remain peaceful in the circumstances where ‘after unification?’, we would be prevented from working democratically to create a separate state because people like you think that has to be a final destination. There are no final destinations in politics/nationality. Always fluidly possible.

Lies, we have become used to, again. Here is what you very clearly insinuated

I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.

Completely contrary to the GFA and the reason the DUP have never accepted it. They wanted to leave the door open/imply a threat to it, if what they dread came to pass.
You also threatened 'World War 111 AGS or new security force tried to police your areas.

But be reassured Francie. I remained peaceful in the face of the sectarian onslaught the ira delivered to my community locally, so I’ll hardly take up the gun at my age.
Can you say the same if roi walked away and left you forever in the uk?

I am the ROI downcow and I am not walking away from anything.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Lies, we have become used to, again. Here is what you very clearly insinuated

Completely contrary to the GFA and the reason the DUP have never accepted it. They wanted to leave the door open/imply a threat to it, if what they dread came to pass.
You also threatened 'World War 111 AGS or new security force tried to police your areas.


I am the ROI downcow and I am not walking away from anything.

Breaking news! Francie doesn’t answer a question