How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Breaking news! Francie doesn’t answer a question

One of your ridiculous deflecting questions? Correct, he didn't bother his backside!

Hamsterchops

Looks like my previous contribution was loved & loathed in equal amounts, which is about right...

Recently bought an illuminated globe of the planet for my children, very interesting looking at all the different oceans, massive continents, and different sized countries, then they found Ireland (and Britain) two tiny little islands beside each other, like two tiny peas in a pod, so close, and yet so far apart?

Anyway, thenkfully these days everybody seems to get along well, English, Irish, Scottish & Welsh, Northern Irish, not forgetting the Manx people, who may or may not be British, does it really matter anyway?

Love being Irish, loved working in England too.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I completely agree with the jist of your post.
It does miss though that the largest group of unionists in the north are Presbyterian. They were even more penalised than catholics ( hence ‘black bast*rds from black mouths from only blackberries to eat). We were key in sustaining the Irish language, the gaa, fighting for united ireland etc. So what went wrong? What was done to our ancestors to turn us so anti lots of that? That’s a dramatic change and we know why. So let’s not airbrush out what the Catholic Irish community done to their Presbyterian neighbours. We may not have been in this mess if there had not been such sectarian attitudes against us. But that is a very long time ago and we are where we are.

What happened was Paisley and a split in the Presbyterian Church of Ireland into PCI and Free Presbyterian and Paisley used his pulpit to stir up hate including opposing Civil Rights for Catholics, playing sport on Sundays to preaching against homosexuality. He hated catholics - he even attacked the Pope in the European Parliament. Not unlike the Tories in England stirring up working class hate against foreigners (taking their jobs), Paisley got the protestant working class behind him because he preached that the catholics would take their jobs, their houses etc. etc. if they got Civil Rights. It wasn't just protestant v. catholic. It was working class prods (DUP). v. middle class prods (UUP). The DUP has won out in that class war. By the way, Edward Carson was an Anglican, not a presbyterian.

Sinbad_NI

jm08 wrote: »

What happened was Paisley and a split in the Presbyterian Church of Ireland into PCI and Free Presbyterian and Paisley used his pulpit to stir up hate including opposing Civil Rights for Catholics, playing sport on Sundays to preaching against homosexuality. He hated catholics - he even attacked the Pope in the European Parliament. Not unlike the Tories in England stirring up working class hate against foreigners (taking their jobs), Paisley got the protestant working class behind him because he preached that the catholics would take their jobs, their houses etc. etc. if they got Civil Rights. It wasn't just protestant v. catholic. It was working class prods (DUP). v. middle class prods (UUP). The DUP has won out in that class war. By the way, Edward Carson was an Anglican, not a presbyterian.

In the early days for Paisley yes ok.
But they were still behind the UUP.

DUP really only trumped UUP after Trimble made the step to speak with the Provos before decommissioning. That plus the kneejerk reaction as unionists saw SF gaining over SDLP.

Those 2 things combined created drove unionists to move from UUP to DUP. And ultimately killed the UUP.

jm08

20-30 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

In the early days for Paisley yes ok.
But they were still behind the UUP.

The DUP started making headway after the loyalist strikes in opposition to the Sunningdale Agreement. Peter Robinson won the East Belfast seat in 1979.

DUP really only trumped UUP after Trimble made the step to speak with the Provos before decommissioning. That plus the kneejerk reaction as unionists saw SF gaining over SDLP.

Those 2 things combined created drove unionists to move from UUP to DUP. And ultimately killed the UUP.

That does not make sense. The Provos. agreed to decommision on signing the GFA. The UUP supported the GFA, but plenty of their support didn't agree with it (such as Jeffrey Donaldson and Arlene Foster who defected to the DUP) because they didn't agree with the GFA.


Downcow claims that the reason unionists reject everything is because of how the IRA treated ''his people'', whereas the truth is a lot of lives could have been saved from both sides if Paisley had not demonised catholics long before the IRA became active.

Sinbad_NI

jm08 wrote: »

The DUP started making headway after the loyalist strikes in opposition to the Sunningdale Agreement. Peter Robinson won the East Belfast seat in 1979.





That does not make sense. The Provos. agreed to decommision on signing the GFA. The UUP supported the GFA, but plenty of their support didn't agree with it (such as Jeffrey Donaldson and Arlene Foster who defected to the DUP) because they didn't agree with the GFA.


Downcow claims that the reason unionists reject everything is because of how the IRA treated ''his people'', whereas the truth is a lot of lives could have been saved from both sides if Paisley had not demonised catholics long before the IRA became active.

This is a million times more accurate than my memory
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/peace/pp9899.htm

Paisley was a complete hate generating figure.
However I don't think many nationalists appreciate how unpopular he still is among a large section of unionists as well.
The revulsion of seeing SF gaining power though was a larger stick and drove unionist people away from the more moderate UUP.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

What happened was Paisley and a split in the Presbyterian Church of Ireland into PCI and Free Presbyterian and Paisley used his pulpit to stir up hate including opposing Civil Rights for Catholics, playing sport on Sundays to preaching against homosexuality. He hated catholics - he even attacked the Pope in the European Parliament. Not unlike the Tories in England stirring up working class hate against foreigners (taking their jobs), Paisley got the protestant working class behind him because he preached that the catholics would take their jobs, their houses etc. etc. if they got Civil Rights. It wasn't just protestant v. catholic. It was working class prods (DUP). v. middle class prods (UUP). The DUP has won out in that class war. By the way, Edward Carson was an Anglican, not a presbyterian.

This is more, either spin or misunderstanding. It was not split. haven't checked but my memory is that there were 300,000 Presbyterians and at the peak of Paisleys Free Presbyterian church, there were less than 10,000 Free Presbyterians. So 3% the size of Presbyterian church at its peak, and many believe that it was a split. Just media hype. And i am pretty sure it has shrunk further and is in the death throws

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The DUP started making headway after the loyalist strikes in opposition to the Sunningdale Agreement. Peter Robinson won the East Belfast seat in 1979.





That does not make sense. The Provos. agreed to decommision on signing the GFA. The UUP supported the GFA, but plenty of their support didn't agree with it (such as Jeffrey Donaldson and Arlene Foster who defected to the DUP) because they didn't agree with the GFA.


Downcow claims that the reason unionists reject everything is because of how the IRA treated ''his people'', whereas the truth is a lot of lives could have been saved from both sides if Paisley had not demonised catholics long before the IRA became active.

I agree that the conflict was caused by Downcow. The bigot

downcow

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

This is a million times more accurate than my memory
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/peace/pp9899.htm

Paisley was a complete hate generating figure.
However I don't think many nationalists appreciate how unpopular he still is among a large section of unionists as well.
The revulsion of seeing SF gaining power though was a larger stick and drove unionist people away from the more moderate UUP.

great post. exactly.
moderate unionist couldn't understand why ordinary catholics were / are voting for the people that launched a sectarian murder campaign on them

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I completely agree with the jist of your post.
It does miss though that the largest group of unionists in the north are Presbyterian. They were even more penalised than catholics ( hence ‘black bast*rds from black mouths from only blackberries to eat). We were key in sustaining the Irish language, the gaa, fighting for united ireland etc. So what went wrong? What was done to our ancestors to turn us so anti lots of that? That’s a dramatic change and we know why. So let’s not airbrush out what the Catholic Irish community done to their Presbyterian neighbours. We may not have been in this mess if there had not been such sectarian attitudes against us. But that is a very long time ago and we are where we are.

Would you wind your neck in.

FrancieBrady

In the 80 odd years before the lid came off, how many 'Unionists' (moderate or otherwise) spoke out about the sectarian state and discrimination against and oppression of Catholics?

Not many.
the problem was too many were too comfortable with the status quo and while moderate, were not prepared to change. Change came slowly.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Looks like my previous contribution was loved & loathed in equal amounts, which is about right...

Recently bought an illuminated globe of the planet for my children, very interesting looking at all the different oceans, massive continents, and different sized countries, then they found Ireland (and Britain) two tiny little islands beside each other, like two tiny peas in a pod, so close, and yet so far apart?

Anyway, thenkfully these days everybody seems to get along well, English, Irish, Scottish & Welsh, Northern Irish, not forgetting the Manx people, who may or may not be British, does it really matter anyway?

Love being Irish, loved working in England too.

Yes

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In the 80 odd years before the lid came off, how many 'Unionists' (moderate or otherwise) spoke out about the sectarian state and discrimination against and oppression of Catholics?

Not many.
the problem was too many were too comfortable with the status quo and while moderate, were not prepared to change. Change came slowly.

well the ulster-scots (Presbyterians) were the bottom of the pile and I didn't hear too many Irish Catholics coming to their rescue

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/no-petty-people-the-ulster-presbyterians-1.1205941

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

well the ulster-scots (Presbyterians) were the bottom of the pile and I didn't hear too many Irish Catholics coming to their rescue

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/no-petty-people-the-ulster-presbyterians-1.1205941

What a surprise, downcow deflects and points at themuns.

eire4

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What a surprise, downcow deflects and points at themuns.

When someone won't even acknowledge a clear fact (in this case for example that the nationalists were discriminated against much as the blacks were during the apartheid regime) then any creditability they may have had goes out the window for me.

downcow

eire4 wrote: »

When someone won't even acknowledge a clear fact (in this case for example that the nationalists were discriminated against much as the blacks were during the apartheid regime) then any creditability they may have had goes out the window for me.

Eire4 if that is directed at me then you misread me. Catholics were horrendously discriminated against at various points in the history of ireland. It was wrong, disgusting and very sad.
Presbyterians were discriminated equally (or many would argue, even more so) at various points in Irish history - do you agree?
Anglicans were seriously discriminated in border areas in the very recent history - do you agree?
We need to acknowledge the great hurt caused to each other and find a way to move forward

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Eire4 if that is directed at me then you misread me. Catholics were horrendously discriminated against at various points in the history of ireland. It was wrong, disgusting and very sad.
Presbyterians were discriminated equally (or many would argue, even more so) at various points in Irish history - do you agree?
Anglicans were seriously discriminated in border areas in the very recent history - do you agree?
We need to acknowledge the great hurt caused to each other and find a way to move forward

Except you don't REALLY want to acknowledge all the great hurt caused, you want to hand wave away the hurt caused by the British establishment and the Unionist community, and drag everything back to, 'but what about themmuns'.

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In the 80 odd years before the lid came off, how many 'Unionists' (moderate or otherwise) spoke out about the sectarian state and discrimination against and oppression of Catholics?

Not many.
the problem was too many were too comfortable with the status quo and while moderate, were not prepared to change. Change came slowly.

I only really remember from the early 80s. But not many (any?) in my time. I assume even less prior to that.

What were the conditions / circumstances before partition that lead to that mindset? Just as the Provos blame the unionists that drove them to murder, what drove the unionist politicians to do what they did?

I'm not trying to point score here, genuinely interested in the history.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Except you don't REALLY want to acknowledge all the great hurt caused, you want to hand wave away the hurt caused by the British establishment and the Unionist community, and drag everything back to, 'but what about themmuns'.

Tell me why you think that?

eire4

downcow wrote: »

Eire4 if that is directed at me then you misread me. Catholics were horrendously discriminated against at various points in the history of ireland. It was wrong, disgusting and very sad.
Presbyterians were discriminated equally (or many would argue, even more so) at various points in Irish history - do you agree?
Anglicans were seriously discriminated in border areas in the very recent history - do you agree?
We need to acknowledge the great hurt caused to each other and find a way to move forward

It was directed at you yes downcow although also in a general sense as I have seen that kind of behaviour before.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Tell me why you think that?

Because I've read your posts and engaged with you multiple times, Downcow. Now there may be an occasional exception, but I can't recall a single post of yours where you haven't wedged a reference to the Nationalist community, SF or the IRA.

downcow

eire4 wrote: »

It was directed at you yes downcow although also in a general sense as I have seen that kind of behaviour before.

Maybe you’ll consider addressing my couple of questions to you.

downcow

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I only really remember from the early 80s. But not many (any?) in my time. I assume even less prior to that.

What were the conditions / circumstances before partition that lead to that mindset? Just as the Provos blame the unionists that drove them to murder, what drove the unionist politicians to do what they did?

I'm not trying to point score here, genuinely interested in the history.

A great question that I don’t completely know the answer to.
We def have a shared responsibility for this mess or this beautiful wee country - whatever way you look at it

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I only really remember from the early 80s. But not many (any?) in my time. I assume even less prior to that.

What were the conditions / circumstances before partition that lead to that mindset? Just as the Provos blame the unionists that drove them to murder, what drove the unionist politicians to do what they did?

I'm not trying to point score here, genuinely interested in the history.

Very simple...because of their lineage and superiority complex.

The native Irish were so demeaned, ridiculed and likened to monkeys at times by British (mainly English) society that Unionists thought themselves above that and even though Britain saw them as Irish too they threatened insurrection (Carson, Bonar Law and Craig etc) if the British abandoned them, which Britain was fully intent on doing.
A weak British government dependent on Unionist support acquiesced. And 100 years later it has finally dawned on many Unionists what republicans always knew. The British then and now did not care about Ireland once they were getting nothing from it.
When it becomes too much trouble they withdraw. Then (from the south) as now again. The GFA being a tacit withdrawal.

jm08

20-30 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

This is a million times more accurate than my memory
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/peace/pp9899.htm

Paisley was a complete hate generating figure.
However I don't think many nationalists appreciate how unpopular he still is among a large section of unionists as well.
The revulsion of seeing SF gaining power though was a larger stick and drove unionist people away from the more moderate UUP.

Not according to the timeline in the Cain link. 6 of the 10 UUP MPs voted against the GFA in the HoC's vote. At that time, the SDLP had the highest percentage vote in the Assembly elections and Sinn Fein were coming in 4th in popularity. Unionists, led by Paisley didn't support the GFA.


I know how unpopular Paisley was at the end. Thats because he went into Gov. and he was still Moderator of the Free Presbyterians (which is against their religious principles) as much as Sinn Fein being in Government. Lets face it, they would have come up with some excuse to avoid power sharing even if it was to share with the SDLP.

Sinbad_NI

jm08 wrote: »

Not according to the timeline in the Cain link. 6 of the 10 UUP MPs voted against the GFA in the HoC's vote. At that time, the SDLP had the highest percentage vote in the Assembly elections and Sinn Fein were coming in 4th in popularity. Unionists, led by Paisley didn't support the GFA.


I know how unpopular Paisley was at the end. Thats because he went into Gov. and he was still Moderator of the Free Presbyterians (which is against their religious principles) as much as Sinn Fein being in Government. Lets face it, they would have come up with some excuse to avoid power sharing even if it was to share with the SDLP.

My memory is SF gaining votes from SDLP as a result of the ceasefire and then the GFA.
Trimble moved to work with SF before decommissioning, that was the beginning of the end for the UUP. The party was split badly and many moved towards the DUP.

I’m sure I missed some important details, but that’s my recollection.

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Very simple...because of their lineage and superiority complex.

The native Irish were so demeaned, ridiculed and likened to monkeys at times by British (mainly English) society that Unionists thought themselves above that and even though Britain saw them as Irish too they threatened insurrection (Carson, Bonar Law and Craig etc) if the British abandoned them, which Britain was fully intent on doing.
A weak British government dependent on Unionist support acquiesced. And 100 years later it has finally dawned on many Unionists what republicans always knew. The British then and now did not care about Ireland once they were getting nothing from it.
When it becomes too much trouble they withdraw. Then (from the south) as now again. The GFA being a tacit withdrawal.

Just shows how a society can go badly wrong if there’s no consequences for their actions.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

This is more, either spin or misunderstanding. It was not split. haven't checked but my memory is that there were 300,000 Presbyterians and at the peak of Paisleys Free Presbyterian church, there were less than 10,000 Free Presbyterians. So 3% the size of Presbyterian church at its peak, and many believe that it was a split. Just media hype. And i am pretty sure it has shrunk further and is in the death throws

According to wiki, 250,000 presbyterians on island of Ireland. Paisley founded the Free Presbyterians of Ulster in 1951 and had 10,000 or so followers. He preached hate against roman catholics, opposed civil rights for catholics organised the loyalist protests (strike) because they opposed the Sunningdale Agreement (which you may recall Seamus Mallon referring to the GFA as the Sunningdale Agreement for Slow Learners). Sunningdale was in 1974, long before any IRA bombing campaign.

Sinbad_NI

15-20 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

My memory is SF gaining votes from SDLP as a result of the ceasefire and then the GFA.
Trimble moved to work with SF before decommissioning, that was the beginning of the end for the UUP. The party was split badly and many moved towards the DUP.

I’m sure I missed some important details, but that’s my recollection.

This is why FF ran scared from coalition with SF,micheal martin famously screamed at mcguiness during some negociations,we wont let you do to us(FF),what you done to SDLP (ie consume their votes)

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

My memory is SF gaining votes from SDLP as a result of the ceasefire and then the GFA.
Trimble moved to work with SF before decommissioning, that was the beginning of the end for the UUP. The party was split badly and many moved towards the DUP.

I’m sure I missed some important details, but that’s my recollection.

1997 SF were eating into the SDLP vote..2 MPS to the SDLP's 3.

SDLP still had 3 in 2001 to SF's 3.

SDLP gained 3 seats in the Assembly elections in the year of the GFA while SF only gained 1.

Local elections show the same 'steady growth' as SF concentrated on the ballot box more.

Point being, there was no significant bounce from the ceasefire/GFA, just more steady growth.