How long before Irish reunification?

RobMc59

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Being a proud British person the way a lot in England seem to be is a different thing altogether to Ulster Loyalism. How you can't differentiate that is beyond me.

Personally, though I think military pride is weird and disgusting and something I will never understand.

UK, USA, Russia, China all fetishise the military... noticing a trend here...

I'm married to an Irish Catholic and don't have any problem with anyone's religious views but find your opinion that pride in your countries military is disgusting is strange.
My relatives fought for Britain in both wars,some of them died as did thousands of others,many of them from NI and Ireland-they are all heroes in the eyes of the majority of British people.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm married to an Irish Catholic and don't have any problem with anyone's religious views but find your opinion that pride in your countries military is disgusting is strange.
My relatives fought for Britain in both wars,some of them died as did thousands of others,many of them from NI and Ireland-they are all heroes in the eyes of the majority of British people.

You're confusing pride in the sacrifice of one's relatives etc with the fetishising of the military that the UK engage in. That is vile in my eyes. Especially given the less than stellar work the UK has done around the world.

I'm also not distracting the thread further than need be on this subject.

I never brought religion into it btw.

I'd suggest though that you read up on the circumstances that brought about partition and the less than stellar interventions that Britain has made on this island to bring us to where we are today.

The IRA didn't just appear out of a vacuum nor did they appear for the lols.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

My relatives fought for Britain in both wars,some of them died as did thousands of others,many of them from NI and Ireland-they are all heroes in the eyes of the majority of British people.

Plenty of Irish people did too and there are lots of monuments to them here that have Poppies at their bases which are not touched.

I actually feel sympathy for a lot of the British soldiers who were sent here during the Troubles - I'm sure if they'd been aware of the rotten sectarian regime they were upholding they'd have been pissed off about it. Plenty of British squaddies said they'd probably have been in the IRA had they grown up in the Bogside or Ballymurphy.

RobMc59

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're confusing pride in the sacrifice of one's relatives etc with the fetishising of the military that the UK engage in. That is vile in my eyes. Especially given the less than stellar work the UK has done around the world.

I'm also not distracting the thread further than need be on this subject.

I never brought religion into it btw.

I'd suggest though that you read up on the circumstances that brought about partition and the less than stellar interventions that Britain has made on this island to bring us to where we are today.

The IRA didn't just appear out of a vacuum nor did they appear for the lols.

The reason I mentioned religion is because it's constantly brought up in discussions on here.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

The reason I mentioned religion is because it's constantly brought up in discussions on here.

Good stuff. But I never mentioned it. And I make a point not mentioning it unless I have to say, for when Craig is mentioned with his Protestant People lark etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Protestant_Parliament_for_a_Protestant_People

Reunification is not religious crusade for a load of Catholics

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Good stuff. But I never mentioned it. And I make a point not mentioning it unless I have to say, for when Craig is mentioned with his Protestant People lark etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Protestant_Parliament_for_a_Protestant_People

Reunification is not religious crusade for a load of Catholics

.....and what was that statement a direct reaction to??? Selective memory ehh. And by the way he didn’t mention a Protestant people, as far as I understand.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The people on the border had the British Army flying its rubbish out of bases because they couldn't go by land.

You're completely clueless.

Not sure what that has to do with anything?
The UK action or inaction or corona virus is what will bring in a border, but it will be the South that will man it.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your happy enough to blame the ira for driving people out,but fail to mention at least 8 of those shops were owned by part time udr members??,how is it in a town massively catjolic,majority of businesses were owned by part time soldiers,drawn from a community that was in significant minority?

I am interested in why you make a blatantly false statement like above - which?
1) have the shinners told you this because they are embarrassed about the blatantly sectarian campaigns they carried out in many towns?
2) you know it’s not true but you want to influence moderate nationalists to believe there was no sectarian cleansing of many towns and villages?
3)you have just been telling lies all along when it suits you?

Here is just one of the many many examples of ira sectarian campaign in castlewellan (down recorder report 1974) worth note that jimmy is now 94 and living alone with his disabled daughter (the baby in the story) and they had the windows smashed again just before last Christmas and get a window replaced approx every 6 months. And before you say it again , was never in the udr. And this was attack number 4 on their home - at least 40 by now!

“A Castlewellan family of five had a miraculous escape from death when a no-warning bomb demolished their home and grocery shop at Mill Hill in Christmas week. It was the fourth attack on the home of Mr. and Mrs. J. Magill, who lost all their belongings, including their children’s Christmas presents.

The explosion happened at 7.25pm on December 21. Fortunately, a customer spotted the beer crate bomb planted at the front door and the family were able to evacuate the building. The blast damaged the house and nearby buildings, but it was a fire which later broke out that completely gutted their belongings.

Mr. Magill, who is manager of the Ulsterbus depot in Newcastle, was in the back kitchen when his wife, Betty, was told of the bomb. He had been nursing his two-month-old daughter, Tania, a premature baby who was only released from hospital three weeks previously and who still requires specialised nursing.

The family are staying with the Rev. James Johnston, minister of Castlewellan Presbyterian Church where Mr. Magill is secretary of the committee.

Mr. Johnston said the family were left with only what they were wearing at the time. A Christmas tree had been set up in the house and surrounded by gifts for the children, but all these things which go to make a happy Christmas in the home were destroyed.”

Evidence
http://www.thedownrecorder.co.uk/pages/?title=From_the_pages_of_the_Down_Recorder%2C_December_31%2C_1974

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am interested in why you make a blatantly false statement like above - which?
1) have the shinners told you this because they are embarrassed about the blatantly sectarian campaigns they carried out in many towns?
2) you know it’s not true but you want to influence moderate nationalists to believe there was no sectarian cleansing of many towns and villages?
3)you have just been telling lies all along when it suits you?

Here is just one of the many many examples of ira sectarian campaign in castlewellan (down recorder report 1974) worth note that jimmy is now 94 and living alone with his disabled daughter (the baby in the story) and they had the windows smashed again just before last Christmas and get a window replaced approx every 6 months. And before you say it again , was never in the udr. And this was attack number 4 on their home - at least 40 by now!

“A Castlewellan family of five had a miraculous escape from death when a no-warning bomb demolished their home and grocery shop at Mill Hill in Christmas week. It was the fourth attack on the home of Mr. and Mrs. J. Magill, who lost all their belongings, including their children’s Christmas presents.

The explosion happened at 7.25pm on December 21. Fortunately, a customer spotted the beer crate bomb planted at the front door and the family were able to evacuate the building. The blast damaged the house and nearby buildings, but it was a fire which later broke out that completely gutted their belongings.

Mr. Magill, who is manager of the Ulsterbus depot in Newcastle, was in the back kitchen when his wife, Betty, was told of the bomb. He had been nursing his two-month-old daughter, Tania, a premature baby who was only released from hospital three weeks previously and who still requires specialised nursing.

The family are staying with the Rev. James Johnston, minister of Castlewellan Presbyterian Church where Mr. Magill is secretary of the committee.

Mr. Johnston said the family were left with only what they were wearing at the time. A Christmas tree had been set up in the house and surrounded by gifts for the children, but all these things which go to make a happy Christmas in the home were destroyed.”

Evidence
http://www.thedownrecorder.co.uk/pages/?title=From_the_pages_of_the_Down_Recorder%2C_December_31%2C_1974

A sad story repeated and repeated all over the north.

The lives of my dad and his family changed dramatically on January 13, 1973. Their house – located in a Protestant area of East Belfast – was attacked and set alight, causing damage to the interior. Many of the family possessions were ultimately destroyed. Luckily, they escaped physical harm, but in the blink of an eye – the striking of a match – they went from homeowners to homeless.

So began the hunt to find a new place to live, in an area my grandparents perceived to be “safer”. They eventually settled in a Catholic neighbourhood, in Andersonstown, West Belfast, and attempted to return to life as normal. My dad went on to sit his first major set of school examinations several months later.

Regrettably, their story is not unique. As a result of the outbreak of what has become known as the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland, some 45,000-60,000 suffered a similar fate, becoming what many refer to colloquially as “burnt out”. According to historical analysis conducted by researchers Sean Connolly and Gillian McIntosh, this was the largest movement of civilians in Europe since the outbreak of World War II. Those forced to leave their homes either crossed the border and became refugees, or stayed in Northern Ireland and became what we would now consider officially as “internally displaced persons”.

Hamsterchops

kneemos wrote: »

A Scottish/NI union back in the EU is more likely..

That's one of several real possibilities, the others being NI leaving the UK and becoming a Crown Dependency (like the channel Islands or the Isle of Man), then you have the "united Ireland" option which is obviously not a runner (in the foreseeable future), then you have the federal island of Ireland option, which would mean a devolved administration in Belfast answering to Dublin instead of Westminster!

Oops, one more option ....
Carry on as normal.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A sad story repeated and repeated all over the north.

As you know I have never denied the terrible things visited on the catholic community by the UDA etc. I acknowledge that their campaign was fuelled by sectarianism every bit as much as the PIRA. Many catholics were driven from their homes, many murdered for no reason other than they were catholic. Totally abhorrent.
My problem is the attempt by many on here and elsewhere to sanitise what the PIRA and SF done/do. They were/are fuelled by sectarian hatred but the likes of jm08 is prepared to trump out lies and excuses about eg false claims of udr membership to assist SF to hide behind.
The single greatest thing SF could do for peace and stability is own up to their past and be prepared to genuinely engage and learn about unionist people. And ditto to the dup types

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

bubblypop wrote: »

Not sure what that has to do with anything?
The UK action or inaction or corona virus is what will bring in a border, but it will be the South that will man it.

You think the people on the no-border are going to cooperate with this?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

And ditto to the dup types

From the very poster who has stated again and again a position contrary to the GFA he says he voted for. The very poster who has said that any attempt to implement it if a border poll goes against his wishes, would not guarantee him remaining peaceful?

But you want self awareness from others????

Intimidation on sectarian grounds is still taking place. In 2017 477 people said that they were forced from their homes by paramilitaries...more than 2/3rds of them were granted 'full duty applicant status' and recognised as being genuinely in need of protection.

Here is an article on the 2015 figures. You can judge for yourself, using that your much self vaunted self awareness who is responsible for most of it.

The IMC report of 2011 predicted that: "Members and former members of all paramilitary groups remain very active in non-terrorist types of crime – a bequest from the Troubles which will dog Northern Ireland for years and will require a substantial continuing effort from law enforcement agencies."

The commission added at the time: "One striking feature of the changes we have described has been how PIRA, however slowly, transformed itself under firm leadership and has gone out of business as a paramilitary group while loyalist groups, lacking comparable direction, have struggled to adapt."

https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/paramilitaries-in-northern-ireland-forcing-hundreds-from-their-homes-each-year

downcow

downcow wrote: »

As you know I have never denied the terrible things visited on the catholic community by the UDA etc. I acknowledge that their campaign was fuelled by sectarianism every bit as much as the PIRA. Many catholics were driven from their homes, many murdered for no reason other than they were catholic. Totally abhorrent.
My problem is the attempt by many on here and elsewhere to sanitise what the PIRA and SF done/do. They were/are fuelled by sectarian hatred but the likes of jm08 is prepared to trump out lies and excuses about eg false claims of udr membership to assist SF to hide behind.
The single greatest thing SF could do for peace and stability is own up to their past and be prepared to genuinely engage and learn about unionist people. And ditto to the dup types

Francie. You went way off again on a ‘let’s try and convince moderate nationalists that the PIRA were somehow less sectarian than loyalists’ by quoting a 10 year-old-report. Much more recent reports are saying the ira are controlling sf Look how quick Michelle was pulled into line yesterday causing her about turn.
UDA are sectarian IRA are sectarian. It’s not difficult to type. Try it.

I have now provided endless evidence. Jm08 has disappeared. If he reappears and wants another 20 such IRA sectarian attacks on Protestant homes in my village I’ll give them to him. He still can’t admit it happened because it doesn’t suit his/your narrative. Not to mention of course every hall, school, church etc that Protestants met in attacked many times. If he wants that list I’ll put it together for him as well.

Facts are a wonderful thing

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

That's one of several real possibilities, the others being NI leaving the UK and becoming a Crown Dependency (like the channel Islands or the Isle of Man), then you have the "united Ireland" option which is obviously not a runner (in the foreseeable future), then you have the federal island of Ireland option, which would mean a devolved administration in Belfast answering to Dublin instead of Westminster!

Oops, one more option ....
Carry on as normal.

It is literally not an option.

For starters no one is agitating for that. It's contrary to the GFA. There is no options on the table outside of the UI.

If a UI isn't on the table for years then what need is there for other options? The nature of how that UI is constructed will be discussed, federal, confederal or unitary etc.

Should these options be on the table as they seem all to be ways to get NI out of the UK? Seems counterproductive and counterintuitive.

It's almost like, that constituent member status of the UK isn't as important as stopping a UI at all costs. Imagine that?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It is literally not an option.

For starters no one is agitating for that. It's contrary to the GFA. There is no options on the table outside of the UI.

If a UI isn't on the table for years then what need is there for other options? The nature of how that UI is constructed will be discussed, federal, confederal or unitary etc.

Should these options be on the table as they seem all to be ways to get NI out of the UK? Seems counterproductive and counterintuitive.

It's almost like, that constituent member status of the UK isn't as important as stopping a UI at all costs. Imagine that?

Am I right in reading your position as being that the gfa is more important that the will of the people? ie if the people decide the gfa has served its purpose and we need to consider other possibilities, they cannot be considered because we are tied for eternity to the gfa That’s a strange and somewhat undemocratic position.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Am I right in reading your position as being that the gfa is more important that the will of the people? ie if the people decide the gfa has served its purpose and we need to consider other possibilities, they cannot be considered nexuses we are tied for eternity to the gfa That’s a strange and somewhat undemocratic position.

No you are incorrect. Unsurprisingly you have extrapolated something from nothing. It wouldn't be like you.

THE GFA IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

Until otherwise decided by the Irish people, that is the only game in town. Are you okay with that?

joseywhales

10-15 years

nothing is the democratic will until there is an actual vote

downcow

A number of these statements Being circulated on social media from various of those ‘terrible loyalist bands’
Nice to see!
.
“Due to the Current Health crisis within Out Wee Country, We at Hillsborough Protestant Boys have decided to Help our Elderly residents and the vulnerable within our own community of Hillsborough no matter what your creed or Colour, If you have an Elderly parent, friend or Neighbour or someone Vulnerable who lives within the Village area, please contact myself or our Chairman Jackie *******, we will do all we can to support those most in need, with Shopping collections and deliveries, Pharmacy needs etc etc
Robin 0787194****
Jackie 078123****
Keep the Faith ðŸ‘🇬🇧

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

No you are incorrect. Unsurprisingly you have extrapolated something from nothing. It wouldn't be like you.

THE GFA IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

Until otherwise decided by the Irish people, that is the only game in town. Are you okay with that?

I’m fine with that. Glad we agree on something. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

joseywhales wrote: »

nothing is the democratic will until there is an actual vote

We had a vote in 1998, after a 30 year Civil War.

What do you think we need to change now?

You're more than welcome to petition and protest and agitate for a change to the GFA or a new process completely. But you're not clear on what it is you want?

Change for change's sake is a disaster waiting to happen.

The GFA doesn't suit Unionists now, so we have to change it. That's the gist isn't it?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I’m fine with that. Glad we agree on something. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

No one is saying the GFA is the omega. But it is the constraint in which the Irish people have agreed to work within.

And it's better than people dying because they have issues with transubstantiation.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You think the people on the no-border are going to cooperate with this?

If it actually happened that the south close the border with Northern Ireland because of the virus, then they really wouldnt' have much option.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

bubblypop wrote: »

If it actually happened that the south close the border with Northern Ireland because of the virus, then they really wouldnt' have much option.

Let's wait for that hypothetical hit

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We had a vote in 1998, after a 30 year Civil War.

What do you think we need to change now?

You're more than welcome to petition and protest and agitate for a change to the GFA or a new process completely. But you're not clear on what it is you want?

Change for change's sake is a disaster waiting to happen.

The GFA doesn't suit Unionists now, so we have to change it. That's the gist isn't it?

I thought it was the other way around that the gfa doesn’t suit nationalists. Nationalists thought it would bring them a united ireland and now that is further away than ever. I would only start campaigning to change if I thought there was any chance it would lead to a UI. It’s cementing the ni identity. Fine with me

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I thought it was the other way around that the gfa doesn’t suit nationalists. Nationalists thought it would bring them a united ireland and now that is further away than ever. I would only start campaigning to change if I thought there was any chance it would lead to a UI. It’s cementing the ni identity. Fine with me

That's an interesting way to read it. If it keeps you warm at night.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's an interesting way to read it. If it keeps you warm at night.

We are all equally happy and equally confident about the future. It must have been a genius bit of writing.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

We are all equally happy and equally confident about the future. It must have been a genius bit of writing.

Well, the quality of politician involved enabled it to be so. Have you not read it or understood it?

For all of their less than redeeming qualities, and there are many; but at that time, Ahern, Clinton, Mitchell, Blair, McGuinness, Trimble, Hume, Mallon, Ervine, the Imperious Mowlam, Adams, Maginnis are of a level of quality of politicians that we could only wish to achieve in our politics today.

In fact, Julian Smith is the only British Minister of this era who could have sat comfortably in that crowd.

The GFA sees a UI as the end goal should it be so wished by the Irish people. That is something us Nationalists never thought we would ever see, a roadmap to an Ireland of equals.

That you would fight against the democratic will should it come to that would be shameful.

RobMc59

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well, the quality of politician involved enabled it to be so. Have you not read it or understood it?

For all of their less than redeeming qualities, and there are many; but at that time, Ahern, Clinton, Mitchell, Blair, McGuinness, Trimble, Hume, Mallon, Ervine, the Imperious Mowlam, Adams, Maginnis are of a level of quality of politicians that we could only wish to achieve in our politics today.

In fact, Julian Smith is the only British Minister of this era who could have sat comfortably in that crowd.

The GFA sees a UI as the end goal should it be so wished by the Irish people. That is something us Nationalists never thought we would ever see, a roadmap to an Ireland of equals.

That you would fight against the democratic will should it come to that would be shameful.

You forgot to mention bonnie that the possibility of a UI is also the decision of those in NI who identify as and are seen on mainland Britain as British.Its the likes of the ira who have had to pull their horns in and cease their murderous and intimidating ways which suits the rest of us whichever country you're from.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. You went way off again on a ‘let’s try and convince moderate nationalists that the PIRA were somehow less sectarian than loyalists’ by quoting a 10 year-old-report.

2015 and 2017 are '10 years ago'?

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. With the obduracy we see coming from you, that would be impossible.

Read the reports and the stats. MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP

Much more recent reports are saying the ira are controlling sf

No, they aren't. Recent reports say 'Some members of the IRA believe that'.

Look how quick Michelle was pulled into line yesterday causing her about turn.
UDA are sectarian IRA are sectarian. It’s not difficult to type. Try it.

Michelle O'Neill like all rational people saw the situation unfolding rapidly and changed her mind.
Once again, rather than co-operating in the interests of ALL, Arlene and the DUP are taking the contrary position.