How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're away with the fairies, Downcow. So British experts good, foreign experts bad?

What about Richard Horton, chief editor of The Lancet, who has accused the British government of playing roulette with the lives of its citizens? Former Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt might know a thing of two about how Tory policy making works,.

What about the >350 signatories to this letter to the British government, all working within scientific research within the UK? http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia/UK_scientists_statement_on_coronavirus_measures.pdf

Why are you so confident in the expertise of the small number of experts hooked in to defend Tory policy, but totally unswayed by the expertise of hundreds of experts who don't have the potential conflict of interest of being government spin....I mean advisors?

Perhaps rather than pulling out 'experts' as a d*ck measuring contest and seeing who's is bigger, we could both step away from the argumentum ad verecundiam and discuss the actual evidence itself.

Foinn. Read the beginning of my post again. I said clearly that I don’t know who is correct. And in your hysteria you turn that into me claiming I know who is correct. You need to take a chill pill and slow down

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's nonsense. Downcow is mixing up the idea of herd immunity with a vaccine.

Imperial College London are the furthest on with research into a vaccine, they've successfully treated mice and are hoping, best case scenario, they can move to human testing by June.

Absolute best case scenario, we would be looking at least a year before it would be available to patients.

Is this not what I said. Folks stop misquoting people.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Four times you have responded with personal invective rather than challenge the substance of my posts. That says it all.

Luckily for you, I have a high threshold before reporting stuff like that.

Because you are an out and out liar.
YOU were asked to back up what you said and yoiu didn't.

I challenged - you failed the challenge

downcow wrote: »

Francie is getting hot and bothered about feeling misunderstood. Reminds of the accusation Francie made about me a Bloody Sunday. What goes around comes around lol

Nobody is getting hot and bothered downcow.

Just sick of people walking away from stuff when they cannot back it up.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Is this not what I said. Folks stop misquoting people.

You literally said, 'Brits have vaccine almost sorted.'

That's copy/pasted directly from your post, you haven't been misquoted. Plainly speaking, you are entirely wrong, the Brits do not have a vaccine almost sorted.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Foinn. Read the beginning of my post again. I said clearly that I don’t know who is correct. And in your hysteria you turn that into me claiming I know who is correct. You need to take a chill pill and slow down

You said clearly that you don't know for sure who is correct, and went on to explain why you placed more stock in the British approach, and the usual barely veiled jibe at anything Irish. Your disingenuity is the one consistent thing about you, Downcow.

So I presume it is a no on your part regarding discussing the actual scientific evidence rather than continuing with the d*ck measuring?

If pointing out the scientific consensus (or lack thereof) on the British approach is hysterical, I really wonder how you make it through the day.

Beasty

30-40 years

blanch152 and FrancieBrady - do not post in this thread again

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You literally said, 'Brits have vaccine almost sorted.'

That's copy/pasted directly from your post, you haven't been misquoted. Plainly speaking, you are entirely wrong, the Brits do not have a vaccine almost sorted.

Tested on mice now moving to monkeys. Should have it in a year. That is blindingly fast for vaccine

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You said clearly that you don't know for sure who is correct, and went on to explain why you placed more stock in the British approach, and the usual barely veiled jibe at anything Irish. Your disingenuity is the one consistent thing about you, Downcow.

So I presume it is a no on your part regarding discussing the actual scientific evidence rather than continuing with the d*ck measuring?

If pointing out the scientific consensus (or lack thereof) on the British approach is hysterical, I really wonder how you make it through the day.

Fionn. I have yet to see any reasoning attached to the Irish position. There is now hysteria. If one country/workplace/school does something then the others feel they have to do at least that much or more to cover their buts.
I genuinely believe a lot of what is going on is but covering. I am no big Boris fan but but covering was never something he was into.
I have just been in a packed coffee shop in my little nationalist village and earwigging other tables they feel the close down happening is crazy - not scientific as it is the people who are happy to go out. No panic buying in my town. Prod churches open as usual this morning and catholic ones closed so your theory would suggest a lot more prods will die from this (that will please a few on here).

Do you feel there is any credence in the Brit theory of moving towards ‘herd immunity’ as it is coming every year going forwards??

We also cannot measure success from deaths this year. We need to take a longer term approach to success.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

The GFA doesn't suit Unionists now, so we have to change it. That's the gist isn't it?

I'm Catholic, Irish and it doesn't suit me. 1998 is 22 years ago, about 650,000 Irish residents have died since then. A new vote for any movement is required.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

jm08 wrote:

JM08 is waiting for you to provide evidence of ethnic cleansing of protestants of Castlewellan up to December 1973, which is when unionists/loyalists refused to powershare with the elected reps of the nationalist community(John Hume, Paddy Devlin and Austin Curry) Sunningdale Agreement.

How many of the people making decisions then are still alive? Can we get real and talk about the present and not something from nearly fifty years ago.
In order for any progression people have to look forward and not back.

Down cow, I have always taken your posts at face value, I assumed you were genuine.
however, now I fear you are actually here to cause trouble.

you stated ' Brits have vaccine nearly sorted', then told us that 12 months is 'blinding fast' for vaccines. It may be, but we all know what you were trying to imply, somehow the Brits have this all right & everyone else is wrong.
Loyality to the crown is one thing, but being blind to the obvious is just ridiculous.

I for one am much happier with the way the government here are trying to protect everyone in society, particularly my mother. Her two sisters & one brother are not so lucky in England however. Seems like they can be sacrificed in order for the younger population.
It's disgusting & they are all highly likely to die should they contract this virus.

I know which approach I & everyone in my circle prefers.

downcow

bubblypop wrote: »

Down cow, I have always taken your posts at face value, I assumed you were genuine.
however, now I fear you are actually here to cause trouble.

you stated ' Brits have vaccine nearly sorted', then told us that 12 months is 'blinding fast' for vaccines. It may be, but we all know what you were trying to imply, somehow the Brits have this all right & everyone else is wrong.
Loyality to the crown is one thing, but being blind to the obvious is just ridiculous.

I for one am much happier with the way the government here are trying to protect everyone in society, particularly my mother. Her two sisters & one brother are not so lucky in England however. Seems like they can be sacrificed in order for the younger population.
It's disgusting & they are all highly likely to die should they contract this virus.

I know which approach I & everyone in my circle prefers.

Bubblypop. If you have access to bbc ni, watch politics ni on this morning. Newton Emerson is who is a fairly level headed guy is explaining how uk is not out off step with everyone. Rather there is a continuum and uk is very close to Germany in their actions. He also states what you don’t want to hear and that is that all governments know that approx 80% of people will get it.
Again I will say that I am not sure who is correct. I also think one single approach on these islands would be very helpful. My preferred approach would be uk/Germany style rather than Irish style. That doesn’t make me an evil person.

Another interesting point on the programme is in relation to rhi report just out. I was chastised here during the week for saying that sf were controlled by the ira. A very reserved report does highlight that marchin omullier (sf MLA and Fisnce Minister at the time) said he spoke to unkown republican leaders outside sf, but was only seeking permission on timing of what he wanted to implement. The report says that is not correct, that he was seeking permission from these unknown republican leaders outside sf for direction and permission on what he should implement as finance minister. We all know who he was talking to. And that should scare the bejesus out of southerners as sf try to become serious players in the dail

As for the vaccines My comment was in response to brits being stupid and I was simply pointing out that they were leading the way worldwide in creating a vaccine. I stand by my comment that 1 year is close when talking about vaccines

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm Catholic, Irish and it doesn't suit me. 1998 is 22 years ago, about 650,000 Irish residents have died since then. A new vote for any movement is required.

I'm Irish and partition doesn't suit me.

1921 is 99 years ago. Millions have died since.

A new vote for any movement is required.

---

See how this flawed approach might not work?

---

The GFA is the framework on which the governance of the island is based.

If you propose to change or scrap it or indeed in the event of a border poll, wish to campaign for a no vote, then by all means off you pop.

It's a democracy. You can be at the forefront of this new partitionist movement. No one is stopping you. Until then though, you're going to have yo work within our current parameters.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Bubblypop. If you have access to bbc ni, watch politics ni on this morning. Newton Emerson is who is a fairly level headed guy is explaining how uk is not out off step with everyone. Rather there is a continuum and uk is very close to Germany in their actions. He also states what you don’t want to hear and that is that all governments know that approx 80% of people will get it.
Again I will say that I am not sure who is correct. I also think one single approach on these islands would be very helpful. My preferred approach would be uk/Germany style rather than Irish style. That doesn’t make me an evil person.

Another interesting point on the programme is in relation to rhi report just out. I was chastised here during the week for saying that sf were controlled by the ira. A very reserved report does highlight that marchin omullier (sf MLA and Fisnce Minister at the time) said he spoke to unkown republican leaders outside sf, but was only seeking permission on timing of what he wanted to implement. The report says that is not correct, that he was seeking permission from these unknown republican leaders outside sf for direction and permission on what he should implement as finance minister. We all know who he was talking to. And that should scare the bejesus out of southerners as sf try to become serious players in the dail

As for the vaccines My comment was in response to brits being stupid and I was simply pointing out that they were leading the way worldwide in creating a vaccine. I stand by my comment that 1 year is close when talking about vaccines

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir

Or Martin Millar for those with a fada fear.

Charles Babbage

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. I have yet to see any reasoning attached to the Irish position. There is now hysteria. If one country/workplace/school does something then the others feel they have to do at least that much or more to cover their buts.
I genuinely believe a lot of what is going on is but covering. I am no big Boris fan but but covering was never something he was into.
I have just been in a packed coffee shop in my little nationalist village and earwigging other tables they feel the close down happening is crazy - not scientific as it is the people who are happy to go out. No panic buying in my town. Prod churches open as usual this morning and catholic ones closed so your theory would suggest a lot more prods will die from this (that will please a few on here).

Do you feel there is any credence in the Brit theory of moving towards ‘herd immunity’ as it is coming every year going forwards??

We also cannot measure success from deaths this year. We need to take a longer term approach to success.

The people who pack into a coffee shop clearly haven't got the message, so they are a particular set of people to survey.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. I have yet to see any reasoning attached to the Irish position. There is now hysteria. If one country/workplace/school does something then the others feel they have to do at least that much or more to cover their buts.
I genuinely believe a lot of what is going on is but covering. I am no big Boris fan but but covering was never something he was into.
I have just been in a packed coffee shop in my little nationalist village and earwigging other tables they feel the close down happening is crazy - not scientific as it is the people who are happy to go out. No panic buying in my town. Prod churches open as usual this morning and catholic ones closed so your theory would suggest a lot more prods will die from this (that will please a few on here).

Do you feel there is any credence in the Brit theory of moving towards ‘herd immunity’ as it is coming every year going forwards??

We also cannot measure success from deaths this year. We need to take a longer term approach to success.

Rather than responding with multiple posts, let me just address your vaccine point first. At an absolute MINIMUM, they MIGHT have a vaccine in a year. It is very fast, and I absolutely applaud the researchers at Imperial College London for their work. Either you honestly have no idea about how medical research works, or you're being disingenuous again, but by no reasonable standards could this be described as, 'the Brits' having a vaccine almost sorted. This vaccine, IF it comes to fruition will be of no help in fighting the current pandemic, but rather will be to protect should it become seasonal.

The, 'reasoning' behind the Irish position is freely available and not difficult to find, Downcow. I'd suggest starting with the WHO advice on the matter and going from there. It is the British reaction which is the outlier here, not the Irish.

And I'm sorry if it offends, but the opinions of people sitting nattering in coffee shops really doesn't come into my workflow when evaluating scientific research. Unfortunately the average person sitting in a coffee shop is unlikely to have sufficient grounding in scientific research to make them a reliable source. I don't see any relevance in what Agnes, 78 from Ards has to say, unless she happens to have a background in virology, immunology or a related field.

Regarding the herd immunity, there may well be some credence to it, we don't know yet. CoVid-19 may or may not be an illness from which we can derive herd immunity as we don't know yet if the virus will actually induce long term immunity. Many similar viruses do not.

Even if we skip this as assume that it does, then we need to look at the numbers. With infection rates and transferrability of CoVid-19, current estimates put it at around 70% of the population requiring immunity for this to work. At 70% of the population, with an estimated 2.3% fatality rate, that would mean over a million deaths before herd immunity kicks in (if it does).

The third thing to consider is that even if one accepts that herd immunity is a desirable goal, and we establish that CoVid-19 does induce a long term immunity, that doesn't mean that this strategy can or should be followed exclusively, to the exclusion of other strategies.

There is no excuse to not include, at the very least a policy of social distancing when possible, beyond protecting the economy.

ittakestwo

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Bubblypop. If you have access to bbc ni, watch politics ni on this morning. Newton Emerson is who is a fairly level headed guy is explaining how uk is not out off step with everyone. Rather there is a continuum and uk is very close to Germany in their actions. He also states what you don’t want to hear and that is that all governments know that approx 80% of people will get it.
Again I will say that I am not sure who is correct. I also think one single approach on these islands would be very helpful. My preferred approach would be uk/Germany style rather than Irish style. That doesn’t make me an evil person.

It should be called the China approach or the Iran approach. China was the first with corona to be hard about it. Iran was the first with corona to be soft about it. UK doing more the Iran approach while ROI are doing more the china approach. Who is right. Only time will tell

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Rather than responding with multiple posts, let me just address your vaccine point first. At an absolute MINIMUM, they MIGHT have a vaccine in a year. It is very fast, and I absolutely applaud the researchers at Imperial College London for their work. Either you honestly have no idea about how medical research works, or you're being disingenuous again, but by no reasonable standards could this be described as, 'the Brits' having a vaccine almost sorted. This vaccine, IF it comes to fruition will be of no help in fighting the current pandemic, but rather will be to protect should it become seasonal.

The, 'reasoning' behind the Irish position is freely available and not difficult to find, Downcow. I'd suggest starting with the WHO advice on the matter and going from there. It is the British reaction which is the outlier here, not the Irish.

And I'm sorry if it offends, but the opinions of people sitting nattering in coffee shops really doesn't come into my workflow when evaluating scientific research. Unfortunately the average person sitting in a coffee shop is unlikely to have sufficient grounding in scientific research to make them a reliable source. I don't see any relevance in what Agnes, 78 from Ards has to say, unless she happens to have a background in virology, immunology or a related field.

Regarding the herd immunity, there may well be some credence to it, we don't know yet. CoVid-19 may or may not be an illness from which we can derive herd immunity as we don't know yet if the virus will actually induce long term immunity. Many similar viruses do not.

Even if we skip this as assume that it does, then we need to look at the numbers. With infection rates and transferrability of CoVid-19, current estimates put it at around 70% of the population requiring immunity for this to work. At 70% of the population, with an estimated 2.3% fatality rate, that would mean over a million deaths before herd immunity kicks in (if it does).

The third thing to consider is that even if one accepts that herd immunity is a desirable goal, and we establish that CoVid-19 does induce a long term immunity, that doesn't mean that this strategy can or should be followed exclusively, to the exclusion of other strategies.

There is no excuse to not include, at the very least a policy of social distancing when possible, beyond protecting the economy.

I believe it is you that is being disingenuous. You know I was not suggesting those in coffee shop knew anything. I was challenging the perception that every nationalist in ni thinks ni should follow roi.
I thanks for repeating all I said about vaccines. I appreciate we fairly much agree on that one

You seem to mid the point about social distancing Of course that is also policy of uk. Roi have closed the schools. Where do you think the kids will be for the next 20 weeks (not 2 as Leo said)?
Kids were in their school classes and returning home to their parents at night. No a fair amount of them will be hanging around estates or staying with their grannies (the most vulnerable group). Will you health staff no have to report a dry cough to get off to look after their kids so as to protect grandparents. This is not a panacea closing the schools. It is very complex.
Are your youth centres/clubs and leisure centres open? Genuine question as I don’t know.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

It should be called the China approach or the Iran approach. China was the first with corona to be hard about it. Iran was the first with corona to be soft about it. UK doing more the Iran approach while ROI are doing more the china approach. Who is right. Only time will tell

We don’t need to wait. Fionn is absolutely sure which method is best!

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

We don’t need to wait. Fionn is absolutely sure which method is best!

That's me done wasting time with you, Downcow. You're the single most dishonest poster I've had the misfortune of encountering. Deflect and dodge, that's about all you've got. I've tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, and discussing things in a frank way, but you can't help but spin.

Best of luck, I won't be engaging with you again on this topic.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That's me done wasting time with you, Downcow. You're the single most dishonest poster I've had the misfortune of encountering. Deflect and dodge, that's about all you've got. I've tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, and discussing things in a frank way, but you can't help but spin.

Best of luck, I won't be engaging with you again on this topic.

That’s rich coming from the person that accused me of taking my medical advice from a coffee shop Lol.
If you can identify anywhere I was dishonest, I will not be found wanting in apologising. Otherwise you shouldn’t be accusing me of such behaviour.
I think you are probably referring to me suggesting that you knew the Irish way on Covid 19 was the right way and the brits were totally wrong. Has that not been what you have been arguing since this topic started? But it’s way of topic anyhow.

RobMc59

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

That’s rich coming from the person that accused me of taking my medical advice from a coffee shop Lol.
If you can identify anywhere I was dishonest, I will not be found wanting in apologising. Otherwise you shouldn’t be accusing me of such behaviour.
I think you are probably referring to me suggesting that you knew the Irish way on Covid 19 was the right way and the brits were totally wrong. Has that not been what you have been arguing since this topic started? But it’s way of topic anyhow.

Britain is being very proactive about this problem without a knee jerk reaction,manufacturers are gearing up to start producing more ventilators and the development of a vaccine in partnership with other nations is a move in the right direction. I noticed the health chief in Ireland berating people for not following the directives about large gatherings in pubs and clubs.

Britain is doing nothing. One side of my family all live in England, 3 aunts/uncles over 70 with underlying health issues.

All of them over there think this is no big deal, the government is giving them that impression.
But of course they are, my elderly aunts & uncles can die for all the British government care....... That what they want for god's sake, let the weakest in society die, less hassle for them.

Granadino

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

What a pathetic series of over and back replies summing up the cluster f**k NI society is ...
Brainwashed people convinced the British are somehow the master race.

downcow

Granadino wrote: »

What a pathetic series of over and back replies summing up the cluster f**k NI society is ...
Brainwashed people convinced the British are somehow the master race.

I completely agree with you but a fair few of these comments are coming from outside ni ie roi. Seems a lot of people have been bread to hate ‘the English’

Granadino

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

downcow wrote: »

I completely agree with you but a fair few of these comments are coming from outside ni ie roi. Seems a lot of people have been bread to hate ‘the English’

You’re one of the main instigators.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain is being very proactive about this problem without a knee jerk reaction,manufacturers are gearing up to start producing more ventilators and the development of a vaccine in partnership with other nations is a move in the right direction. I noticed the health chief in Ireland berating people for not following the directives about large gatherings in pubs and clubs.

100%, Rob. Britain is being very proactive, unfortunately I don't feel that this is the case for the British government.

Regarding the people gathering in pubs, I do think it's ridiculous that people are more focused on a night out than the safety of their communities.

Water John

Most countries in Europe are taking slightly different actions at different times but are largely in, lock step. The ROI is following this line too, similar to South Korea.

UK are not going the same route. It's a major problem for the people on the island of Ireland. I suspect NI are looking to school closures after Easter running then into the summer holidays. However Covid 19 isn't agreeing.
NI will have to chose and soon to get into step with the rest of the island.
Since the UK won't be testing anyone with symptoms , we won't have those figures to compare. The only set of figures we will have to compare sadly are deaths.

eire4

Granadino wrote: »

You’re one of the main instigators.

You have to give him credit though he really is good with the trolling. It is quite amusing really.

downcow

Granadino wrote: »

You’re one of the main instigators.

I don’t know about the term instigator but I wouldn’t argue with you that I have got sucked in to reacting to the anti british sentiment.
I just think it’s far too easy for you to call it a NI problem when a fair few of the ‘instigators’ are your country folk.