How long before Irish reunification?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. Now that you seem happy that I have answered you question.

I wouldn't go that far, but it's not relevant to me, jm08 asked them.

Here’s the return one I have been seeking answers for a while on but no one will answer.

Well, I wonder why?

Do you agree the ira regularly targeted Protestants simply because of their community background.

This is a very loaded and rather trickily [sic] worded question. If one was to take "community" as solely defined as "Protestant" then I would probably disagree.

If "community" was defined as Loyalist/Unionist/British, then it stands to reason that the IRA, who saw Unionist/Loyalist and British targets as things standing in the way of their raison d'etre.
If that's the case you are asking me to agree with something that is self-evident.

I'm incredibly irreligious, so as a point I try always to shun Catholic and Protestant as community nomenclature as I feel they box people into uneasy corners

Republicanism and Nationalism have always been warmer houses for Protestants than Loyalism and Unionism were for Catholics. So that should help to dilute the lingering sectarianism that you feel the IRA were guilty of.

Of course the IRA targeted protestant Irishman on sectarian grounds, but it happened far less, than say, Loyalists targeting Catholics. Nothing being condoned here, but to frame the Troubles as a solely sectarian conflict from a Nationalist POV does you no favours.

(So setting aside their many military targets, their many assassinations of suspected informers, and their mistakes)

Set aside. Okay? Why bring them up?

Do you accept that when they put off big bombs in town centres they inevitably hit perceived Protestant town centres

Unfortunately it's a nature of the beast that yes, of course they targeted "Protestant" (as you use it here) towns more than Nationalist towns. Herein lies the zero-sum of your questioning here.

Why would they attack their own community? Think about it? If the UDA or UVF bombed Carrickfergus, wouldn't that have been weird?

I mean, the UVF ACTIVELY attacked Catholics no matter what, no matter what town they were in.

When they put bombs in nationalist towns they carefully selected Protestant homes and business for attack.

I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.

When they selected civilians for murder eg kingsmill it was inevitably Protestant civilians

I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.

When they attacked cultural events, they were always unionist family events?

I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.

Do you believe me when I point out that out of 100s of ira attacks in my small town, a minority were against the British military and 100% of the rest were against Protestant homes, businesses and people?

I don't know where you're from so I couldn't possibly know, however, given your attitude thus far, there is no way I would take your assertion at face value.

This is an important acknowledgment to my people moving forward which sf could make, but you could start now by answering.

I don't speak for SF though.

---

I have no idea why PUL community grievance is so strong these days? Is it the fact that CNR and dissenters are now equal in the eyes of the law and society?

The thing is, Unionism has never really acknowledged the whys and wherefores for the Troubles starting in the first place, so I'd cut Nationalists some slack for now given Loyalism freaks out about fadas on road signs and closing schools in the face of a global health pandemic.

---

“To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.”

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

interesting - the guy that claimed i didn't answer questions is still not keeping to his word. Surprise surprise

Were you lingering all day to post that?

Unfortunately, life in the Ireland's capital city isn't all cafes and milking parlours at the minute.

Runaways

10-15 years

Still waiting on an answer downcow.

How exactly would I or anyone ‘spot a Protestant about the place’?

I’ve been here all my life and all over the world and I’ve not managed to hone the skill

Yet you say they’re identifiable

Please explain

RobMc59

10-15 years

Runaways wrote: »

Still waiting on an answer downcow.

How exactly would I or anyone ‘spot a Protestant about the place’?

I’ve been here all my life and all over the world and I’ve not managed to hone the skill

Yet you say they’re identifiable

Please explain

I understand its very easy to spot ira members,they're the only ones not worried about coronavirus as rats and snakes aren't affected by it apparently.

Runaways

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand its very easy to spot ira members,they're the only ones not worried about coronavirus as rats and snakes aren't affected by it apparently.

Rob. You don’t even read posts you like and reply to. As evidenced only today.


And this particular posts makes no sense unless you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you vermin and threats.


I’d be reporting it except you’re a Brit and we all know you lads aren’t the brightest

RobMc59

10-15 years

Runaways wrote: »

Rob. You don’t even read posts you like and reply to. As evidenced only today.


And this particular posts makes no sense unless you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you vermin and threats.


I’d be reporting it except you’re a Brit and we all know you lads aren’t the brightest

My post was light hearted although I'd say most normal people consider the ira as vermin and a threat.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

My post was light hearted although I'd say most normal people consider the ira as vermin and a threat.

By that logic most normal people would think the british as vermin too,as they effectivly gave birth to the ira

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand its very easy to spot ira members,they're the only ones not worried about coronavirus as rats and snakes aren't affected by it apparently.

I don't think you understand what light-hearted means.

eire4

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I don't think you understand what light-hearted means.

I was thinking the same thing myself. Trolling I would think would be a more apposite word.

RobMc59

10-15 years

eire4 wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing myself. Trolling I would think would be a more apposite word.

Accusing me of trolling implies I`ve said something upsetting-quite how my opinion of the ira who have murdered,kneecapped,extorted money and various other horrible acts is trolling eludes me tbh.

eire4

RobMc59 wrote: »

Accusing me of trolling implies I`ve said something upsetting-quite how my opinion of the ira who have murdered,kneecapped,extorted money and various other horrible acts is trolling eludes me tbh.

Well what you said above might have been true although I did not think ( based on what I have seen of your posting history) so hence why I said what I did in response to another person. But you then just yourself claimed you were making a "light hearted " post which well just says it all.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far, but it's not relevant to me, jm08 asked them.



Well, I wonder why?




This is a very loaded and rather trickily [sic] worded question. If one was to take "community" as solely defined as "Protestant" then I would probably disagree.

If "community" was defined as Loyalist/Unionist/British, then it stands to reason that the IRA, who saw Unionist/Loyalist and British targets as things standing in the way of their raison d'etre.
If that's the case you are asking me to agree with something that is self-evident.

I'm incredibly irreligious, so as a point I try always to shun Catholic and Protestant as community nomenclature as I feel they box people into uneasy corners

Republicanism and Nationalism have always been warmer houses for Protestants than Loyalism and Unionism were for Catholics. So that should help to dilute the lingering sectarianism that you feel the IRA were guilty of.

Of course the IRA targeted protestant Irishman on sectarian grounds, but it happened far less, than say, Loyalists targeting Catholics. Nothing being condoned here, but to frame the Troubles as a solely sectarian conflict from a Nationalist POV does you no favours.


Set aside. Okay? Why bring them up?




Unfortunately it's a nature of the beast that yes, of course they targeted "Protestant" (as you use it here) towns more than Nationalist towns. Herein lies the zero-sum of your questioning here.

Why would they attack their own community? Think about it? If the UDA or UVF bombed Carrickfergus, wouldn't that have been weird?

I mean, the UVF ACTIVELY attacked Catholics no matter what, no matter what town they were in.



I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.



I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.



I couldn't possibly answer that. I have no idea. I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.



I don't know where you're from so I couldn't possibly know, however, given your attitude thus far, there is no way I would take your assertion at face value.



I don't speak for SF though.

---

I have no idea why PUL community grievance is so strong these days? Is it the fact that CNR and dissenters are now equal in the eyes of the law and society?

The thing is, Unionism has never really acknowledged the whys and wherefores for the Troubles starting in the first place, so I'd cut Nationalists some slack for now given Loyalism freaks out about fadas on road signs and closing schools in the face of a global health pandemic.

---

“To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.”

Appreciate you answering. I can’t disagree with much of what you said.
These are the comments I found most interesting (with the what aboutety removed). Very clear!

“it stands to reason that the IRA, who saw Unionist/Loyalist and British targets as things standing in the way of their raison d'etre.”

“If that's the case you are asking me to agree with something that is self-evident.”

“Of course the IRA targeted protestant Irishman on sectarian grounds”

“Unfortunately it's a nature of the beast that yes, of course they targeted "Protestant" (as you use it here) towns more than Nationalist towns.”

“I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.”

“I have no idea why PUL community grievance is so strong”

Thank you for you clear statements about ira sectarianism. That means a lot to me as this is the stuff that is so often denied.
And I very much appreciate you admission that you don’t understand unionist grievance.
You will have put Francie a jm08 into blind panic. They will no doubt continue their policy of never answering a question and throwing up smokescreens to protect ira/sf

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Appreciate you answering. I can’t disagree with much of what you said.
These are the comments I found most interesting (with the what aboutety removed). Very clear!

“it stands to reason that the IRA, who saw Unionist/Loyalist and British targets as things standing in the way of their raison d'etre.”

“If that's the case you are asking me to agree with something that is self-evident.”

“Of course the IRA targeted protestant Irishman on sectarian grounds”

“Unfortunately it's a nature of the beast that yes, of course they targeted "Protestant" (as you use it here) towns more than Nationalist towns.”

“I would assume that they attacked Unionists or Loyalists though as a matter of course.”

“I have no idea why PUL community grievance is so strong”

Thank you for you clear statements about ira sectarianism. That means a lot to me as this is the stuff that is so often denied.
And I very much appreciate you admission that you don’t understand unionist grievance.
You will have put Francie a jm08 into blind panic. They will no doubt continue their policy of never answering a question and throwing up smokescreens to protect ira/sf

You did exactly the same thing when I answered you.

You cherrypicked your 'victory' out of the answer and ignored the most of it.

You have maintained most disingenuous poster status downcow.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You did exactly the same thing when I answered you.

You cherrypicked your 'victory' out of the answer and ignored the most of it.

You have maintained most disingenuous poster status downcow.

Smokescreen again Francie.
What is it that I highlighted from bonnies post that you disagree with?
I won’t be holding my breath for an answer

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

Smokescreen again Francie.
What is it that I highlighted from bonnies post that you disagree with?
I won’t be holding my breath for an answer

Please breathe deeper.

Oxygen is critical to cognitive function.
Maybe we can get you a ventilator. Ireland makes 50% of the worlds ventilatiors.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Smokescreen again Francie.
What is it that I highlighted from bonnies post that you disagree with?
I won’t be holding my breath for an answer

Why do you need an answer?

Simply cross reference what you highlighted with what you didn't (ignored) highlight and you'll figure it out.

The facts are downcow...if the IRA had an ideology or even a policy of being 'sectarian' then your people would be gone - wiped out.

Yes there were instances of sectarianism (still are) but there is plenty of evidence that it was not a motivation or goal of the IRA.

What is that evidence? Take my area...Fermanagh/Monaghan - hundreds of unmolested protestants still living and working in the community.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you need an answer?

Simply cross reference what you highlighted with what you didn't (ignored) highlight and you'll figure it out.

The facts are downcow...if the IRA had an ideology or even a policy of being 'sectarian' then your people would be gone - wiped out.

Yes there were instances of sectarianism (still are) but there is plenty of evidence that it was not a motivation or goal of the IRA.

What is that evidence? Take my area...Fermanagh/Monaghan - hundreds of unmolested protestants still living and working in the community.

what a ridiculous post Francie. I can take you to places where catholics suffered greatly from sectarianism, but just because a few managed to stay around doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Tell the Palestinians living in Israel, or the travelling community in Ireland, that they are evidence everything is fine.

One of the most ridiculous things I have read on here. But thats all the evidence you have that the IRA were not sectarian.

simply unbelievable

ittakestwo

20-30 years

I would say 20 years away. The nationalist voting population will have to out number the unionist by a good 10% before it will pass.

However it might be sped up if Scotland break away or even England. Most younger generations throughout the UK except NI dont identify as British. Will be hard to keep a country going that a lot of people dont identify as being part of.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

what a ridiculous post Francie. I can take you to places where catholics suffered greatly from sectarianism, but just because a few managed to stay around doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Tell the Palestinians living in Israel, or the travelling community in Ireland, that they are evidence everything is fine.

One of the most ridiculous things I have read on here. But thats all the evidence you have that the IRA were not sectarian.

simply unbelievable

If you can't interpret what simple, straight forward posts are saying you are lost.

But I suspect once again, that you know very well what is being said but you need to put your own slant on it.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you need an answer?

Simply cross reference what you highlighted with what you didn't (ignored) highlight and you'll figure it out.

The facts are downcow...if the IRA had an ideology or even a policy of being 'sectarian' then your people would be gone - wiped out.

Yes there were instances of sectarianism (still are) but there is plenty of evidence that it was not a motivation or goal of the IRA.

What is that evidence? Take my area...Fermanagh/Monaghan - hundreds of unmolested protestants still living and working in the community.

And we know how the Provos like the bit of molesting

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

And we know how the Provos like the bit of molesting

Ah...maybe that is why they existed? Is that what you are saying?

Not for a sectarian crusade, but to have their way with underage people?


Makes about as much sense as downcow's theory I suppose.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

what a ridiculous post Francie. I can take you to places where catholics suffered greatly from sectarianism, but just because a few managed to stay around doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Tell the Palestinians living in Israel, or the travelling community in Ireland, that they are evidence everything is fine.

One of the most ridiculous things I have read on here. But thats all the evidence you have that the IRA were not sectarian.

simply unbelievable

That analogy doesn't work though the way you want it to work as Palestinians (as the minority) would be the equivalent to the catholics (minority in NI). Protestants the equivalent to the Israelis (unionist with British State). Similarly with the travelling community - they are a minority.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

That analogy doesn't work though the way you want it to work as Palestinians (as the minority) would be the equivalent to the catholics (minority in NI). Protestants the equivalent to the Israelis (unionist with British State). Similarly with the travelling community - they are a minority.

You must be drinking the same as Francie if you think Protestants are anything other than a minority in ROI, which was Francies point. so analogy works just fine - it may not suit your narrative, but it works

Unfortunately guys you are trying to defend something disgusting ie the IRA murder campaign against my community

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you need an answer?

Simply cross reference what you highlighted with what you didn't (ignored) highlight and you'll figure it out.

The facts are downcow...if the IRA had an ideology or even a policy of being 'sectarian' then your people would be gone - wiped out.

Yes there were instances of sectarianism (still are) but there is plenty of evidence that it was not a motivation or goal of the IRA.

What is that evidence? Take my area...Fermanagh/Monaghan - hundreds of unmolested protestants still living and working in the community.

I've read some rubbish on here, but I think this is the first yet.

Definition of sectarian
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/sectarian

To say Provos campaign wasn't sectarian is simply incorrect.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah...maybe that is why they existed? Is that what you are saying?

Not for a sectarian crusade, but to have their way with underage people?


Makes about as much sense as downcow's theory I suppose.

Now francie maybe you are getting on message at last. IRA was spurned by sectarian hatred, but absolute power leads to absolute corruption which lead to them being parasites on their own community with the rape and abuse of young boys and girls, the acquisition of wealth, and the abuse of young men through punishment beatings, threats and murder.
Nice guys - and many of them are now wearing suits and on £70,000 a year. incredible stuff

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I've read some rubbish on here, but I think this is the first yet.

Definition of sectarian
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/sectarian

To say Provos campaign wasn't sectarian is simply incorrect.

The IRA campaign was not motivated by religious hate. It's a ridiculous unsustainable point.

If they were they were pretty terrible at it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now francie maybe you are getting on message at last. IRA was spurned by sectarian hatred, but absolute power leads to absolute corruption which lead to them being parasites on their own community with the rape and abuse of young boys and girls, the acquisition of wealth, and the abuse of young men through punishment beatings, threats and murder.
Nice guys - and many of them are now wearing suits and on £70,000 a year. incredible stuff

Give us the stats on that facet there downcow.

How many have been convicted of such offences?

landofthetree

Probably not happening now with C19.

UK has control over its monetary policy. Ireland doesnt. As we are in the Euro we are screwed.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Give us the stats on that facet there downcow.

How many have been convicted of such offences?

Francie. I offered to use the town you raised as an example. I said i would prove that the IRA committed over 100 offences against civilians and that 97% were against protestants - in a town where less than 30% of the population were protestant, the deal was that JM08 would then admit that the IRA were inherently sectarian - he then went to ground. i think the phrase may be
I Ran Away
Now if i provide such evidence, will you admit the IRA are inherently sectarian?

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The IRA campaign was not motivated by religious hate. It's a ridiculous unsustainable point.

If they were they were pretty terrible at it.

Sectarian definition from the link above...
"caused by or feeling very strong support for the religious or political group that you are a member of, in a way that can cause problems with other groups:

I can start linking to atrocities where they targeted innocent civilians based on their religion or politician views if you want?