How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No I wasn't. I was referring directly to Francie whop was evidencing that there was no sectarianism because he knew there were still prods living in ROI and the border areas of NI

There you go with the disingenuous lies again. Don't you even begin to question your own credibility when you have to correct yourself over and over.

'Francie' never said there was 'no sectarianism'...he was very careful to accept theat there was some.
'Francie's' point is that to say the IRA's campaign was 'inherently' anti-protestant is a complete fabrication which cannot be backed up by the facts.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

No he wasnt

He was.

Mallon is in the same mould of 'democrat' as Michael Martin and Varadkar. He thought agreements should work even if all the people were not represented at the table.

Sunningdale was doomed even without Unionist objections.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Meanwhile,as the Taoisearch`s stock rises in Ireland and around the world for his superb handling of the coronavirus crisis,things just keep going from bad to worse for poor old mary lou...
https://extra.ie/2020/03/23/news/politics/varadkar-apple-tax

Runaways

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Meanwhile,as the Taoisearch`s stock rises in Ireland and around the world for his superb handling of the coronavirus crisis,things just keep going from bad to worse for poor old mary lou...
https://extra.ie/2020/03/23/news/politics/varadkar-apple-tax

You really read very very different news than the rest of us.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He was.

Mallon is in the same mould of 'democrat' as Michael Martin and Varadkar. He thought agreements should work even if all the people were not represented at the table.

Sunningdale was doomed even without Unionist objections.

No it wasnt. Sinn Fein couldnt be represented because they boycotted any initiative on the orders of O Conaill and the other thugs. Stop trying to rewrite history.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

No it wasnt. Sinn Fein couldnt be represented because they boycotted any initiative on the orders of O Conaill and the other thugs. Stop trying to rewrite history.

No rewrite.

Mallon thought that the SDLP could move on without a sizeable portion of nationalism being onside.

He was wrong.
It was that kind of arrogance (evidenced also in FG and FF's version of democracy, i.e exclusion) that led to the SDLP's demise.

They figured it out eventually but not before ostracising Hume, who realised the mistake and sat down and talked to SF. Probably Mallon's and O'Grady's biggest mistake.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

jm08 is still waiting for you to provide a list of protestants killed by the PIRA prior to unionists/protestants rejection of the Sunningdale Agreement (i.e., protestants killed by the PIRA/INLA etc. prior to December 1973.


I'd also like to know why did protestants/unionists reject Sunningdale?

I think you are trying to move the goal posts again.
You said the ira did not attack Protestants before dec 73. I asked if I provide evidence,restricted only to the wee town Francie identified, that showed dozens of attacks and 100% against Protestants. Would you then admit the ira was sectarian? I am still awaiting your response to that question. Lying low for a few days doesn’t remove the need to answer the question. Follow bonnies courageous example.
??????????????

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There you go with the disingenuous lies again. Don't you even begin to question your own credibility when you have to correct yourself over and over.

'Francie' never said there was 'no sectarianism'...he was very careful to accept theat there was some.
'Francie's' point is that to say the IRA's campaign was 'inherently' anti-protestant is a complete fabrication which cannot be backed up by the facts.

Well Francie let me ask you again.
If I evidence that there were 100+ attacks by the ira in the town you identified. If I can show that approx 30% were against the security forces (mostly Protestant) and 60+% were against Protestant civilians with no security connection, and 3% were against catholics (all for connection with security) would you admit that that was inherently sectarian/ anti-Protestant?????
All on a town which was 70+% catholic

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well Francie let me ask you again.
If I evidence that there were 100+ attacks by the ira in the town you identified. If I can show that approx 30% were against the security forces (mostly Protestant) and 60+% were against Protestant civilians with no security connection, and 3% were against catholics (all for connection with security) would you admit that that was inherently sectarian/ anti-Protestant?????
All on a town which was 70+% catholic

You just wrote all of that and you didn't mention the word 'Unionist' once, nor 'Loyalist'.

You need a healthy dose of self awareness downcow. My border town has a healthy congregation of protestants, my partner and my children are part of it. They don't have the siege mentality you have nor the lack of awareness of history. They know the difference between a Unionist/Loyalist and a protestant.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No rewrite.

Mallon thought that the SDLP could move on without a sizeable portion of nationalism being onside.

He was wrong.
It was that kind of arrogance (evidenced also in FG and FF's version of democracy, i.e exclusion) that led to the SDLP's demise.

They figured it out eventually but not before ostracising Hume, who realised the mistake and sat down and talked to SF. Probably Mallon's and O'Grady's biggest mistake.

S.F. had absolutely minimal support while supporting the murder campaign. Thatcher then played in to their hands with the hunger strike but even then they did not great support until the ceasefires. Also loom at the vote the S.D.L.P. got when the Unionists resigned their seats after the Anglo Irish Agreement. You might fool some gullible useful idiots who were not alive in the 70s and 80s but thats about it

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

S.F. had absolutely minimal support while supporting the murder campaign. Thatcher then played in to their hands with the hunger strike but even then they did not great support until the ceasefires. Also loom at the vote the S.D.L.P. got when the Unionists resigned their seats after the Anglo Irish Agreement. You might fool some gullible useful idiots who were not alive in the 70s and 80s but thats about it

So what in your opinion happened?

SF got massive support even before they fully decommissioned in the north.

It's staring you in the face but you don't want to see it or you have no real knowledge of how things worked.

People in NI voted tactically, they voted for the realistic chance for their 'side of the house' so to speak. My dad who lived in the north would have voted for a horse if it was a 'nationalist/republican' horse. That was just the way things were.

SF simply didn't have the electoral machine and were not realistic hopes for a large part of the conflict. So electoral success for the SDLP can not be taken as a lack of support for SF.

When SF became electable...support came massively for them, resulting in the almost demise of the SDLP. There was no issue with their involvement in the conflict or their association with the IRA, right across the electorate.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So what in your opinion happened?

SF got massive support even before they fully decommissioned in the north.

It's staring you in the face but you don't want to see it or you have no real knowledge of how things worked.

People in NI voted tactically, they voted for the realistic chance for their 'side of the house' so to speak. My dad who lived in the north would have voted for a horse if it was a 'nationalist/republican' horse. That was just the way things were.

SF simply didn't have the electoral machine and were not realistic hopes for a large part of the conflict. So electoral success for the SDLP can not be taken as a lack of support for SF.

When SF became electable...support came massively for them, resulting in the almost demise of the SDLP. There was no issue with their involvement in the conflict or their association with the IRA, right across the electorate.

This is interesting from Prof Liam Kennedy (Irish catholic academic). also sad to reflect on the pointless loss of life

"“The greatest danger to you if you were a Provisional IRA volunteer was not the RUC or the British Army – it was your own organisation killing you either accidentally or intentionally,”

The number of loyalist paramilitaries killed by the Provisional IRA was just 28 – less than 2 per cent of all those killed by the Provisional IRA but notwithstanding this relatively low figure, the Provisional IRA was “the main killing agency during the Troubles”, he said.

‘Spearhead’
“The Provisional IRA was the spearhead or the cutting edge of, as Martin McGuinness described it, ‘the fight for Irish freedom’ or if you prefer the move to coerce 900,000 Protestants into a state that they did not want to be part of,” he said.

“These figures show that the Provisional IRA was responsible for driving the conflict onwards year and year before admitting defeating in 1994 for its ultimate objective of creating a 32 county republic,” he added.

“The Provisional IRA proved the dynamic for three decades of political violence and as such was primarily responsible for the Troubles – the Provisional IRA was not about civil rights or defending Catholic communities, it was about achieving a 32 county republic by force of arms.”

Prof Kennedy said: “There is a basis for suggesting that in some instances there is such a thing as an oppressive minority and in that sense, the republican community, and perhaps extending further into the nationalist electorate, can be categorized as an oppressive community.”
https://pure.qub.ac.uk/en/persons/liam-kennedy

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

WHERE have I justified killing?

Do you denounce all.the killings by the Provisional IRA?

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you denounce all.the killings by the Provisional IRA?

I denounce all killings, everywhere, at any time.

It was wrong from the beginning and it certainly wasn't begun by the IRA or nationalists. It was 'begun' by partition and a sectarian bigoted state and the support of that state by a government whose duty was to all of the people.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I denounce all killings, everywhere, at any time.

It was wrong from the beginning and it certainly wasn't begun by the IRA or nationalists. It was 'begun' by partition and a sectarian bigoted state and the support of that state by a government whose duty was to all of the people.

" all killings, everywhere, at any time" Even the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich?

Nitrogan

Everyone will be broke at the end of this. Sinn Fein will probably be the only organisation on the island with a pot of gold to dig into.

If it's their priority they'll spend big when people are at their lowest ebb promising pretty much the same stuff they promised in the last election but without any meaningful opposition.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

" all killings, everywhere, at any time" Even the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich?

If others had done their job and stopped Germany when they flagrantly ignored a treaty (guess who ignored them) then Reynard would never have gotten to where he was.

Are you in favour of the death penalty and revenge killing yourself?

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I denounce all killings, everywhere, at any time.

It was wrong from the beginning and it certainly wasn't begun by the IRA or nationalists. It was 'begun' by partition and a sectarian bigoted state and the support of that state by a government whose duty was to all of the people.

What about Robert Nairac?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

What about Robert Nairac?

He wouldn't have been here had...etc etc etc.

I detest armies and the need for them and would hide them away if it was my world to run.

maccored

30-40 years

Edgware wrote: »

S.F. had absolutely minimal support while supporting the murder campaign. Thatcher then played in to their hands with the hunger strike but even then they did not great support until the ceasefires. Also loom at the vote the S.D.L.P. got when the Unionists resigned their seats after the Anglo Irish Agreement. You might fool some gullible useful idiots who were not alive in the 70s and 80s but thats about it

they'd quite a lot of support in the north in the 80s when I came of voting age - dont talk bollocks please

Runaways

10-15 years

The random occasional accounts parachuting into this thread to drag up obscure unionist personalities and events from the past that have no bearing on where we are now, really is quite funny.

Long may it continue. Hope they stick around for the oncoming debate. And hopefully they’ll find more relevant talking points by that stage.

landofthetree

So a 15billion budget deficit for 2020.

https://mobile.twitter.com/businessposthq/status/1241673475095289856

( Probably more like 25-30billion imo)

That will take years of austerity to balance.

Don't think a UI is happening anytime soon.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Runaways wrote: »

The random occasional accounts parachuting into this thread to drag up obscure unionist personalities and events from the past that have no bearing on where we are now, really is quite funny.

Long may it continue. Hope they stick around for the oncoming debate. And hopefully they’ll find more relevant talking points by that stage.

Which obscure unionist personalities are you referring to?

Runaways

10-15 years

landofthetree wrote: »

So a 15billion budget deficit for 2020.

https://mobile.twitter.com/businessposthq/status/1241673475095289856

( Probably more like 25-30billion imo)

That will take years of austerity to balance.

Don't think a UI is happening anytime soon.

You’re looking at the wrong countries incoming deficit.

You need to look at the UKs

Think you’re about to realise They’d find that 11 billion they throw into a black hole every year will be something they’ll want to hang onto.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He wouldn't have been here had...etc etc etc.

I detest armies and the need for them and would hide them away if it was my world to run.

I think the question rob was asking you was, do you denounce the killing of Robert nairac?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think the question rob was asking you was, do you denounce the killing of Robert nairac?

Of course I do.

Which bit of 'I denounce ALL killing' did you not understand?

landofthetree

Runaways wrote: »

You’re looking at the wrong countries incoming deficit.

You need to look at the UKs

Think you’re about to realise They’d find that 11 billion they throw into a black hole every year will be something they’ll want to hang onto.

Drop in the ocean when you set your own monetary policy.

Ireland,Italy,Greece,Portugal etc will all be beaten down like in 2008.


https://www.thejournal.ie/troika-bondholders-1231183-Dec2013/
Paying unguaranteed bondholders was unfair, admits former IMF chief

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html

Ireland has paid 42% of the total cost of the European banking crisis, at a cost of close to €9,000 per person, according to Eurostat.

Sinbad_NI

landofthetree wrote: »

Drop in the ocean when you set your own monetary policy.

Ireland,Italy,Greece,Portugal etc will all be beaten down again like in 2008.

The entire world is going to be a different place after this I think.
Probably be the rick getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Only 1 thing will be a certainty ... it’ll be all the Brits fault ;-)

Sinbad_NI

landofthetree wrote: »

Drop in the ocean when you set your own monetary policy.

Ireland,Italy,Greece,Portugal etc will all be beaten down like in 2008.


https://www.thejournal.ie/troika-bondholders-1231183-Dec2013/
Paying unguaranteed bondholders was unfair, admits former IMF chief

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/42-of-europes-banking-crisis-paid-by-ireland-219703.html

Ireland has paid 42% of the total cost of the European banking crisis, at a cost of close to €9,000 per person, according to Eurostat.

From the second link...
The figures show that while the banking crisis cost Berlin €40bn, Ireland is liable for €41bn. With fractions of the population and GDP of the EU’s biggest state, the crisis has cost Ireland 25% of GDP and Germany 1.5%.

That’s insane.

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

The entire world is going to be a different place after this I think.
Probably be the rick getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Only 1 thing will be a certainty ... it’ll be all the Brits fault ;-)

Sadly the Brits will be on their own in recovery.

We will have what I think will be the way of the future, a protective union in which we can rebuild.

The world will change, no doubt about it, and I don't think those who want to exploit it are going to be the winners.