How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So tell me. Do you believe he was just out for a dander??? or do you believe me that he was on a killing mission??? - You are so slippery, you never ever answer a question

I don't know, I wasn't there and I daresay, neither were you. I will take the word of the most reliable (to me) source until proved otherwise.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

they targeted protestants endlessly.

The majority of the PIRA's killings were security forces.The vast majority of unionist killings were innocent Catholics.

The figures speak for themselves. Unionists sprayed pubs/bookies with gunfire, they targeted people for nothing other than their religion routinely.

If the PIRA had adopted the same tactics then the death rate of innocent Protestants (the safest demographic during the Troubles) would have been exponentially worse.

What brought the Troubles to an end was the IRA's realisation that they weren't going to force the British state's withdrawal so they moved to bombing the British to the table by targeting the British cities with stuff like this and this.

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I think that lot were a bunch of crazed murderers, same as all the rest. They got away with it, got a taste for it and then what followed was unbelievably awful.
No, innocent Catholics of course aren't guilty. Nor the common enemy.
What I meant was, they got together because the common enemy (the IRA) was murdering them. Badly worded on my part. Unreserved apologies, not what I meant.
How they could thrn take this hatred out on innocent people is far beyond me. **** what a mess this place was in back then.

Your Catholic church comparison. How many stood up and did something about that? And how long did it go on for first? Was everyone guilty of the offence for all those years, were they all guilty as you claim all the SF personal were?
Did they all deserve to be killed?

No side came out of this **** show with the moral compass pointing in their direction. The Catholic community certainly had a hell of a lot to complain about. Absolutely no argument there.
I'm far from happy about what my supposed "people" have done in the past.

For 'crazed murderers who got a taste for it' they switched it all off remarkably like a disciplined army would, do you not think?

I actually find that remarkable and didn't think it possible. We owe McGuinness and Adams a great deal for keeping people onside.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

What I meant was, they got together because the common enemy (the IRA) was murdering them. Badly worded on my part.

And if unionist paramilitaries had been used to assassinate IRA people then they'd have claim to some degree of honour but they almost exclusively murdered innocent Catholics.

Your Catholic church comparison. How many stood up and did something about that? And how long did it go on for first? Was everyone guilty of the offence for all those years, were they all guilty as you claim all the SF personal were?

All guilty. And society has to bear some of that responsibility too for letting that happen. We should have a national day of shame here for the way we treated the vulnerable members of our society. Where were all the whistle-blower Clerics from the RCC? Why are there so few whistle-blowers from the days of RUC/UDR collusion with killer gangs? I don't know of any.

Did they all deserve to be killed?

I put 'deserved' in inverted commas. What I mean was those who were killers and got killed themselves, well tough shit. The world was better-off without some of the sadistic bastards around, on both sides.

No side came out of this **** show with the moral compass pointing in their direction. The Catholic community certainly had a hell of a lot to complain about. Absolutely no argument there.
I'm far from happy about what my supposed "people" have done in the past.

It should have been avoided, it should have ended long before it did, and it ultimately should never have happened - it was a failure of humanity. From what I can tell both the British and the IRA were looking for a way to end it from about the mid 70's but conflict takes on its own rotten self-propelled inertia once it starts.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For 'crazed murderers who got a taste for it' they switched it all off remarkably like a disciplined army would, do you not think?

I actually find that remarkable and didn't think it possible. We owe McGuinness and Adams a great deal for keeping people onside.

Another factor was that the US pressured the IRA to cease their killing,particularly when they discovered the IRA had been helping Colombian terrorists.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/oct/28/northernireland.colombia

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only reason they shot entire pub full of catholics was the ira were running rings around the brits and it was pure desperation stuff


For an organisation that was supposedely defeated,it was from a pure military,tactical viewpoint at its peak in the 1990s.....it was brits what tried bring the north in a balkens style civil war in the 90s,but adbandoned it when the ira began to flatten their city centres

Hahaha. I think even the most ardent republican will admit they were terminally infiltrated. Informers and agents throughout. Then their own community put serious pressure on top due the the tot for tat slaughter like Shankill bomb and rising sun bar.
They grasped the gfa with both hands to save some face.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Another factor was that the US pressured the IRA to cease their killing,particularly when they discovered the IRA had been helping Colombian terrorists.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/oct/28/northernireland.colombia

I don't care if it was little green men from Mars...these 'crazed killers who had gotten a taste for it' shut it all down with remarkable discipline.

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For 'crazed murderers who got a taste for it' they switched it all off remarkably like a disciplined army would, do you not think?

I actually find that remarkable and didn't think it possible. We owe McGuinness and Adams a great deal for keeping people onside.

If they were so disciplined then the earlier argument about activities outside of leadership control sort of goes out the window though doesn't it?

If I'm honest I'm totally conflicted.
Those two were obviously very main protagonists and kept it going and directed it for so long.
Yes they obviously played a part in bringing it to an end, but they equally played a part in it all for so long.

Maybe let's leave it with I'm very glad they brought it to an end. That's for sure. Glad my kids don't have to grow up worrying about such things.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know, I wasn't there and I daresay, neither were you. I will take the word of the most reliable (to me) source until proved otherwise.

So what’s your haunch? Was he out for a sander or out on a killing mission?

Francie just one simple question?

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Hahaha. I think even the most ardent republican will admit they were terminally infiltrated. Informers and agents throughout. Then their own community put serious pressure on top due the the tot for tat slaughter like Shankill bomb and rising sun bar.
They grasped the gfa with both hands to save some face.

Nah mate,like i.said military tactical view,they were at peak

Most of their prolonged military engagements occured mid to late 90s

They could contest ground in large tracts of the north,both urban and rural

Could bomb into.heart of england with relative impunity


The brits were reduced to flying rubbish in/out of baracks and watch towers,stragering foot patrols and using 2 helicoptors to.accompany foot patrols....if this is what winning looks to the british,fair enough,your entitled to label it that

Personally,i would call that a military and security failure,the fact you admit yourself they had to resort to shooting up pubs to inflic damage,pretty much says it all

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The majority of the PIRA's killings were security forces.The vast majority of unionist killings were innocent Catholics.

The figures speak for themselves. Unionists sprayed pubs/bookies with gunfire, they targeted people for nothing other than their religion routinely.

If the PIRA had adopted the same tactics then the death rate of innocent Protestants (the safest demographic during the Troubles) would have been exponentially worse.

What brought the Troubles to an end was the IRA's realisation that they weren't going to force the British state's withdrawal so they moved to bombing the British to the table by targeting the British cities with stuff like this and this.

Junkyard you have a serious problem. I am not denying that scumbags calling themselves loyalist sprayed catholics with gunfire. You seem to be oblivious to republicans spraying Protestants with gunfire. Are you for real?

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

I think even the most ardent republican will admit they were terminally infiltrated.

I've always found this a bit confusing. If they were terminally infiltrated then you understand that the British were allowing them to murder RUC/UDR and plant bombs in Britain?

So what that says is that they were actually consciously allowing Republicans to murder your friends and colleagues.

You understand that that would mean they considered you guys as pawns on the chessboard with the PIRA and British intelligence deciding who got to live and die?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So what’s your haunch? Was he out for a sander or out on a killing mission?

Francie just one simple question?

I answered you. Can you please stop with the juvenile attempt to depict me as somebody who doesn't answer questions.

I DON'T KNOW what he was doing and I am not interested in having a hunch or a gues. I will rely on a source that is otherwise scrupulously honest and thorough.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For 'crazed murderers who got a taste for it' they switched it all off remarkably like a disciplined army would, do you not think?

I actually find that remarkable and didn't think it possible. We owe McGuinness and Adams a great deal for keeping people onside.

Do you still not accept why Mcguinness was turning it off. Do your research. When did he turn it off? Check when his squad had their last successful attack? Why did he turn it off before every other area? Agent Martin - and yous still worship him. Lol

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Do you still not accept why Mcguinness was turning it off. Do your research. When did he turn it off? Check when his squad had their last successful attack? Why did he turn it off before every other area? Agent Martin - and yous still worship him. Lol

Why are you speaking in riddles?

RobMc59

10-15 years

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah mate,like i.said military tactical view,they were at peak

Most of their prolonged military engagements occured mid to late 90s

They could contest ground in large tracts of the north,both urban and rural

Could bomb into.heart of england with relative impunity


The brits were reduced to flying rubbish in/out of baracks and watch towers,stragering foot patrols and using 2 helicoptors to.accompany foot patrols....if this is what winning looks to the british,fair enough,your entitled to label it that

Personally,i would call that a military and security failure,the fact you admit yourself they had to resort to shooting up pubs to inflic damage,pretty much says it all

The ira were well organised, the war of attrition was a very good tactic against the British which was a constant drain on them.With hindsight,the British have benefited the most from the agreement.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

You seem to be oblivious to republicans spraying Protestants with gunfire.

I tend to agree with Kevin Myers (who hated the IRA/Provos for what it's worth.)

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth ... that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.

This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already."

Irish Independent, June 23, 2011

The fact remains that the IRA (bad as they were) were focused their attacks on the British state - people most likely to be killed during the Troubles were security forces. Conversely, those least likely to be killed were Protestant civilians.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've always found this a bit confusing. If they were terminally infiltrated then you understand that the British were allowing them to murder RUC/UDR and plant bombs in Britain?

So what that says is that they were actually consciously allowing Republicans to murder your friends and colleagues.

You understand that that would mean they considered you guys as pawns on the chessboard with the PIRA and British intelligence deciding who got to live and die?

I am a realist.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I answered you. Can you please stop with the juvenile attempt to depict me as somebody who doesn't answer questions.

I DON'T KNOW what he was doing and I am not interested in having a hunch or a gues. I will rely on a source that is otherwise scrupulously honest and thorough.

Well Francie who would you believe if the ira contradicted CAIN and said he was out on a killing mission?
Google it. They have even a song about that night.

...and that was just the first one I looked at
I’ll not wait for you retraction

RobMc59

15-20 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

The ira were well organised, the war of attrition was a very good tactic against the British which was a constant drain on them.With hindsight,the British have benefited the most from the agreement.

They are at a tipping point demograhically now,where if they dont hold the border poll....they'll have to face into another long war....which is impossible to justify from any side

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I tend to agree with Kevin Myers (who was a hated the IRA/Provos for what it's worth.)

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth ... that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.

This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already."

Irish Independent, June 23, 2011

The fact remains that the IRA (bad as they were) were focused their attacks on the British state - people most likely to be killed during the Troubles were security forces. Conversely, those least likely to be killed were Protestant civilians.

Just keep me right here, do you think it's honourable / just / right / whatever to kill men and women that worked in the security forces?

Was it the collusion with loyalists that made then guilty or something else?

Again to go back to an earlier point, where does this guilt stop?
Shop owners who served them, long retired members, people questioned about their religion before being shot?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I tend to agree with Kevin Myers (who was a hated the IRA/Provos for what it's worth.)

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth ... that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.

This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already."

Irish Independent, June 23, 2011

The fact remains that the IRA (bad as they were) were focused their attacks on the British state - people most likely to be killed during the Troubles were security forces. Conversely, those least likely to be killed were Protestant civilians.

I find your sanitisation of the ira quick simply sick.
They often took 3 days to kill a victim. I couldn’t even have dreamt up some of the tortures they carried out on young men from my community.
I get angry sitting here thinking about some of the stuff I know they done to young men. Bastards. And loyalists were equally evil.
Absolute dirty scumbags. I don’t know how they sleep in their beds.
Killing people is one thing.
Cutting off young men’s penis and shoving in their mouth before dropping them in a bath of boiling water. Junkyard it was awful and you are saying they are better than the bastards in the Uvf who buried one young man alive.
I am angry as I write this.
I completely accept that the security forces carried out stuff not to be proud off but it was in another league

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well Francie who would you believe if the ira contradicted CAIN and said he was out on a killing mission?
Google it. They have even a song about that night.

...and that was just the first one I looked at
I’ll not wait for you retraction

That band sing a song about a relative of mine and I can tell you it is a pile of glorifying nonsense. Good tune though.

Stop listening to propaganda sources downcow.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I tend to agree with Kevin Myers (who was a hated the IRA/Provos for what it's worth.)

"There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth ... that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.

This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already."

Irish Independent, June 23, 2011

The fact remains that the IRA (bad as they were) were focused their attacks on the British state - people most likely to be killed during the Troubles were security forces. Conversely, those least likely to be killed were Protestant civilians.

Google IRA torture and start reading.

Heads up for you.... you'll be there a while.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That band sing a song about a relative of mine and I can tell you it is a pile of glorifying nonsense. Good tune though.

Stop listening to propaganda sources downcow.

What about an phobla More old propaganda is it.
https://republican-news.org/archive/1998/August27/27ndil.html

Sinbad_NI

15-20 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Google IRA torture and start reading.

Heads up for you.... you'll be there a while.

You could just link to your blog

The writing style is identical :pac:

Sinbad_NI

Deleted User wrote: »

You could just link to your blog

The writing style is identical :pac:

You’ve lost me there?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What about an phobla More old propaganda is it.
https://republican-news.org/archive/1998/August27/27ndil.html

All members of the IRA shot dead by the British are commemorated as being on 'active service', no matter the circumstances.

p.s. and as I have stated a few times on here before I regard An Phoblacht as propaganda, and always did. You should stop reading it too downcow.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All members of the IRA shot dead by the British are commemorated as being on 'active service', no matter the circumstances.

p.s. and as I have stated a few times on here before I regard An Phoblacht as propaganda, and always did. You should stop reading it too downcow.

What about newspaper records from the day that report he was a sniper with gun cocked? Would you accept that?

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Just keep me right here, do you think it's honourable / just / right / whatever to kill men and women that worked in the security forces?

I don't think there is honour in any killing. The security forces were players in the conflict - that's not really disputed. People who joined the RUC/UDR knew they were 'picking a side', they carried guns, and there was collusion to a deep level.

The RUC/UDR were sectarian paramilitary forces from the very beginning until they were stood down as unacceptable to the Nationalist population.