How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

What about newspaper records from the day that report he was a sniper with gun cocked? Would you accept that?

It would depend on the paper frankly...An Phoblacht isn't the only media outlet known for propaganda.

Edit: Especially in 1974. Read some of the reportage on Bloody Sunday and then read what actually came out.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It would depend on the paper frankly...An Phoblacht isn't the only media outlet known for propaganda.

Edit: Especially in 1974. Read some of the reportage on Bloody Sunday and then read what actually came out.

BELFAST telegraph ?

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

I am angry as I write this.

People like you, Downcow, are irredeemable. You take no responsibility for Unionists causing the conflict and for Unionist paramilitary forces (both state and non-state) playing their part in the mass murder of innocent Catholics and participation in the chaos. You revel in sectarian marches and cry persecution when people point out your history of horrible treatment of the minority until you were house trained to go and piss in your own garden.

I used to think that encouraging Unionists into a United Ireland was the way to go. I don't any more. I just want the British state out of Ireland. Unionists will be fine in a UI. Brexit was a poke in the eye for the nationalist people. Unionists following the clown-lead of the Tories is putting our nation at greater risk than it should be. Unionism in Ireland is 100 years past its sell-by date.

Enough is enough.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't think there is honour in any killing. The security forces were players in the conflict - that's not really disputed. People who joined the RUC/UDR knew they were 'picking a side', they carried guns, and there was collusion to a deep level.

The RUC/UDR were sectarian paramilitary forces from the very beginning until they were stood down as unacceptable to the Nationalist population.

You claimed there was mass collusion, they all knew... and were all guilty.
Listen, I’m not claiming there wasn’t bad eggs, lots I’m sure who should have been protecting innocent people rather than keeping the status quo and probably far worse.
Many many people join police forces for many different reasons. Picking a side is one yes in our wonderful history, but certainly not the only one.

But to class all as guilty and legitimate targets of murdere is something quite different.
Anything to back up this claim?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

BELFAST telegraph ?

:D In 1974?

I will let your BBC answer that for me shall I?

The Belfast Telegraph styles itself as Northern Ireland's national newspaper and has a strong unionist ethos.
....

The bid from the Independent prompted unease among unionists who said they were worried that the Belfast Telegraph's stance might by diluted.

These fears were met with a well-managed campaign aimed at assuring them of Independent News and Media's sensitivity to unionist concerns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/681024.stm

eire4

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't think there is honour in any killing. The security forces were players in the conflict - that's not really disputed. People who joined the RUC/UDR knew they were 'picking a side', they carried guns, and there was collusion to a deep level.

The RUC/UDR were sectarian paramilitary forces from the very beginning until they were stood down as unacceptable to the Nationalist population.

Have you read The Committee by Sean McPhilmey? It gives a pretty detailed account of some of the collusion of the British state forces. Give it a read if you have not already.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

But to class all as guilty and legitimate targets of murdere is something quite different.

I'm not saying that every RUC/UDR man/woman was guilty of direct participation in, or colluding with, the murder of hundreds and hundreds of Catholics. But every one consciously decided to join a paramilitary police force with a reputation sectarianism, collusion, and murder in a time of conflict.

People who joined the RUC/UDR knew what came with the pay cheque. Don't give me the 'just doing their jobs' routine.

Runaways

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are you speaking in riddles?

When is he not?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D In 1974?

I will let your BBC answer that for me shall I?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/681024.stm

Well this sums up the problem of dealing with the half dozen extreme republicans on this thread. It reminds me why there is the problem over the Irish language etc in north.
They just continually throw about rediculous accusations with zero evidence and when asked to provide some backup they deflect or go on the run for a few days.

Francie wanted evidence of the fact the sniper discussed was on active service’. He poo pooed every source of evidence I provided. It seems Francies measure when it comes to IRA dirty deeds is conviction on a court of law (in fact he doesn’t even accept that) Yet when it comes to uk state dirty deeds the rumour and urban myth is adequate.

It really is pointless discussing with jmo8, junkyard and Francie. Bonnie started to answer questionS honestly but it very quickly took her to a place of some reality and now she has got angry that she allowed honesty to get in the way of the republican narrative. Unfortunately Honesty is not the best policy if you are trying to defend the indefensible!

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not saying that every RUC/UDR man/woman was guilty of direct participation in, or colluding with, the murder of hundreds and hundreds of Catholics. But every one consciously decided to join a paramilitary police force with a reputation sectarianism, collusion, and murder in a time of conflict.

People who joined the RUC/UDR knew what came with the pay cheque. Don't give me the 'just doing their jobs' routine.

Let’s go with your mass guilt declaration, humour my ramble.

Like any very large organisation you can guarantee they had a small number of really nasty people. No doubt guilt. I’ll agree with you here.

I’m also sure they had a huge mass of people that did as their bosses told, handed out beatings of mobs etc. But did nothing more.
I’m sure they had some who did nothing more than push paper round a desk.
And they would have had some who absolutely detested what was going on.
There was what 8k full time cops and 4K reserve’s at the max, say 10k for a round number.
We know the chaos caused by a relatively small number of republicans, if this 10k were all as bad as you say would they not have been able to do far far worse?

Anyway, the machine can’t run itself.
For a start it needs a base, so you’ll need a building built and maintained.
That’ll need workers and material suppliers. All knew the score right, so all complicit and guilty I guess.
Vehicles don’t run themselves either, so there’s a good few mechanics that are in on it don’t forget.
Then what about the civilians working in the place, cleaners, cooks and the like. Well they must have known what was going on, I’m sure many friends with they cops, so guilty too I guess.
Now let’s consider day to day working, out on patrol for example, the shopkeeper who would sell them food for example. Well that’s helping the state machine... guilty.
But then at some stage they have to go home, take off the uniform. Probably a safe bet that the neighbours know each other pretty well, certainly outside the cities. Well they didn’t do anything about the machine, but they certainly knew the craic, must be guilty.
Then when these people are going about their lives when off duty, shops, churches for example. If people know who they are and are helping them, are they all guilty... entire swathes of the community and entire villages.
What about after they retire, are they still guilty, for how long, 6 months, a year, 5 years, etc.
What about when they die and friends and communities come together to remember them... are these people all guilty for supporting the state machine in their own way.

Where’s the line drawn for you?

downcow

I promised to post this earlier in the thread. Its a great podcast always but this is excellent on Corona risks - reassuring
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p087n42r

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I promised to post this earlier in the thread. Its a great podcast always but this is excellent on Corona risks - reassuring
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p087n42r

Let me guess.

You’re gonna defeat it with bulldog british vim and vigor and good old Dunkirk spirit


Seems to be boris’ approach.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Let me guess.

You’re gonna defeat it with bulldog british vim and vigor and good old Dunkirk spirit


Seems to be boris’ approach.

You do enjoy a good snipe.

In reality the only logical reason for our current strategy to slow it down is because the health services around the world would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention the undertakers etc. While I agree with this strategy and the fact that it is saving us from the traumatic mayhem that would ensue, it is not actually saving many, if any, lives at all

timhenn

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

You do enjoy a good snipe.

In reality the only logical reason for our current strategy to slow it down is because the health services around the world would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention the undertakers etc. While I agree with this strategy and the fact that it is saving us from the traumatic mayhem that would ensue, it is not actually saving many, if any, lives at all

Any progression on sorting out the CAIN website? Or have you accepted that the british side murdered over 1,000 innocents?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well this sums up the problem of dealing with the half dozen extreme republicans on this thread. It reminds me why there is the problem over the Irish language etc in north.
They just continually throw about rediculous accusations with zero evidence and when asked to provide some backup they deflect or go on the run for a few days.

Francie wanted evidence of the fact the sniper discussed was on active service’. He poo pooed every source of evidence I provided. It seems Francies measure when it comes to IRA dirty deeds is conviction on a court of law (in fact he doesn’t even accept that) Yet when it comes to uk state dirty deeds the rumour and urban myth is adequate.

It really is pointless discussing with jmo8, junkyard and Francie. Bonnie started to answer questionS honestly but it very quickly took her to a place of some reality and now she has got angry that she allowed honesty to get in the way of the republican narrative. Unfortunately Honesty is not the best policy if you are trying to defend the indefensible!

DId you find an 'actual' evidence that he was not out for a walk?

NO, you didn't. You presented the words of an army that has lied before...an article in a newspaper with 'a unionist ethos' and a rebel song...ffs! downcow, listen to yourself will you?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You do enjoy a good snipe.

In reality the only logical reason for our current strategy to slow it down is because the health services around the world would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention the undertakers etc. While I agree with this strategy and the fact that it is saving us from the traumatic mayhem that would ensue, it is not actually saving many, if any, lives at all

Your graph is matching that of Italy.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

And they would have had some who absolutely detested what was going on.

What did they do about it? I don't know of any RUC whistle-blowers from the Troubles era.

Where’s the line drawn for you?

It's a difficult question to answer. I'm sure there were people in the RUC who just wanted a pay cheque and were perfectly nice people. Then you might have had someone who was intimately involved in murdering innocent people.

Does the RUC man involved with killing his neighbours get a pass when he takes off his uniform?

downcow

downcow wrote: »

You do enjoy a good snipe.

In reality the only logical reason for our current strategy to slow it down is because the health services around the world would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention the undertakers etc. While I agree with this strategy and the fact that it is saving us from the traumatic mayhem that would ensue, it is not actually saving many, if any, lives at all

Just realise some of you won't get BBC so here is a very poor summary.

I suppose the bit I find interesting is that 600,000 people will die in UK in 2020. This podcast would suggest that that number is unlikely to increase due to Corona , and indeed if we ignored corona, the concentration of deaths in a short period would be shocking and traumatic, but again the 600,000 figure would potentially change little. Now it makes it very clear we must protect eachother, with isolation, hand washing, etc, etc, and it is not attempting to ignore the pain and misery corona is bringing.
Its just a different take on things. Of course many people need to be extremely careful and some are loved ones, but I know some fit and healthy people who are petrified out of all reason for their own safety.

I did point out to my daughters yesterday about the healthy 21 yearold to try and get them to take it a little more serious, and their immediate come back was quite valid - they were sure there was a 21 yearold died on the UK roads yesterday and every day. Thats a very poor summary!

Runaways

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

You do enjoy a good snipe.

In reality the only logical reason for our current strategy to slow it down is because the health services around the world would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention the undertakers etc. While I agree with this strategy and the fact that it is saving us from the traumatic mayhem that would ensue, it is not actually saving many, if any, lives at all

The death rate in NI is currently 4%

In Ireland it’s 1%


Tell me again who is handling this correctly

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

DId you find an 'actual' evidence that he was not out for a walk?

NO, you didn't. You presented the words of an army that has lied before...an article in a newspaper with 'a unionist ethos' and a rebel song...ffs! downcow, listen to yourself will you?

Francie, If you could provide a tenth as much evidence of collusion I would be very happy.

I have provided you rock solid info including the words of your favorite army (the IRA) top confirm he was on a killing mission.

Maybe you could give me and example of what you would regard as reasonable evidence. Oh i forgot we've been here a few times - you are living in denial

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

The death rate in NI is currently 4%

In Ireland it’s 1%


Tell me again who is handling this correctly

When we look back on this in a years time, the normal average death rate will have been maintained in both jurisdictions. It will have been unaffected by Covid 19

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, If you could provide a tenth as much evidence of collusion I would be very happy.

THAT IS WHY downcow when I refer to the Dublin Monaghan bombings (which my family were victims of) I am very careful to say...'alleged collusion'.

I have provided you rock solid info including the words of your favorite army (the IRA) top confirm he was on a killing mission.

Maybe you could give me and example of what you would regard as reasonable evidence. Oh i forgot we've been here a few times - you are living in denial

The CAIN website has no vested interest. Therefore I trust their designations.
I would no more trust an IRA version than a British army version.

Show me the 'actual evidence' or it remains in the 'alleged' column.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

When we look back on this in a years time, the normal average death rate will have been maintained in both jurisdictions. It will have been unaffected by Covid 19

You could handwave away the conflict/war here using the same bull**** justifications.

You got it disastrously wrong and are playing catch-up - people will die who shouldn't have.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

I did point out to my daughters yesterday about the healthy 21 yearold to try and get them to take it a little more serious, and their immediate come back was quite valid - they were sure there was a 21 yearold died on the UK roads yesterday and every day. Thats a very poor summary!

40 medical people, mostly Doctors, have died in Italy with thousands more ill. People are choosing to die at home because they don't want to die alone in quarantine.

Germany is doing much much better than Britain. This is bigger than your Union Flag and the dawning realisation that the English Government might just be an incompetent shower of clowns.

Sinbad_NI

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What did they do about it? I don't know of any RUC whistle-blowers from the Troubles era.



It's a difficult question to answer. I'm sure there were people in the RUC who just wanted a pay cheque and were perfectly nice people. Then you might have had someone who was intimately involved in murdering innocent people.

Does the RUC man involved with killing his neighbours get a pass when he takes off his uniform?

No one should ever get a pass.

But by the similar logic. All are not guilty.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

THAT IS WHY downcow when I refer to the Dublin Monaghan bombings (which my family were victims of) I am very careful to say...'alleged collusion'.




The CAIN website has no vested interest. Therefore I trust their designations.
I would no more trust an IRA version than a British army version.

Show me the 'actual evidence' or it remains in the 'alleged' column.

So Francie, di i take it you have no evidence on any collusion eg loughinisland massacre, and there it is also simply alledged?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So Francie, di i take it you have no evidence on any collusion eg loughinisland massacre, and there it is also simply alledged?

No...'I' don't have any evidence downcow...various journalists have presented what evidence there is and like any thing else you can form an opinion about it.

I don't think there are any 'ballads' about it though, so you may be stuck.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

40 medical people, mostly Doctors, have died in Italy with thousands more ill. People are choosing to die at home because they don't want to die alone in quarantine.

Germany is doing much much better than Britain. This is bigger than your Union Flag and the dawning realisation that the English Government might just be an incompetent shower of clowns.

I am uncomfortable with this being a measure of any countrys credentials. But if I was you I would hold your fire until the dust settles.

current serious cases per 1 million population
ROI 368
UK 172

lets hope they all recover

FrancieBrady

:D:D Sorry. I can't fecking believe somebody presented a ballad as evidence. Just sayin'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No...'I' don't have any evidence downcow...various journalists have presented what evidence there is and like any thing else you can form an opinion about it.

I don't think there are any 'ballads' about it though, so you may be stuck.

Could you gives us all even a few tiny shreads of the evidence that has been presented for collusion in Loughinisland? I can't remember who, but there were a few posters on here talking about it as if it was a done deal - maybe they will help you!