How long before Irish reunification?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wrong man downcow

Sure he thinks "themmuns" are all the same.

---

I do love how his high evidence threshold is not applicable to himself.

There's that good old British exceptionalism again...

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I think you may have missed the concept of a forum.
i asked you to provide some evidence for your claim that Catholic theology gives assurance of heaven but Protestant authority does not. That was a question. For you to respond with another question suggests you can't answer the one I asked.
So don't make silly claims in the future as you will probably be asked for evidence

I think you meant this for me!


First of all, I claim no such thing.


What I said is that catholics have a mechanism to be forgiven for their sins on earth before they go to meet their maker - i.e., confession to a priest who can grant absolution, then their is anointment at death and if the worst comes to the worst, they can serve time in purgatory before their souls meets their maker!


Protestants don't have intermediaries on earth to grant them forgiveness. Its between themselves as an individual and their God who they are answerable to when they meet him.

FrancieBrady

Elaine Doyle follows up her tweet with an article in a UK newspaper (presumably commissioned) not unfamiliar with having a cold hard look at itself. Perhaps some north of the border could do the same?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/14/coronavirus-uk-ireland-delay?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR19iUJMAQmuZ6Dtampb-4dULWkCA89Jr6kb0Cb40Dykmx7vSOPV_enJ7TY

RobMc59

10-15 years

jm08 wrote: »

I think you meant this for me!


First of all, I claim no such thing.


What I said is that catholics have a mechanism to be forgiven for their sins on earth before they go to meet their maker - i.e., confession to a priest who can grant absolution, then their is anointment at death and if the worst comes to the worst, they can serve time in purgatory before their souls meets their maker!


Protestants don't have intermediaries on earth to grant them forgiveness. Its between themselves as an individual and their God who they are answerable to when they meet him.

Can you tell me then,what happens to non Catholics?
I've no problem with anyone's religious beliefs btw.

RobMc59

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

......and while lights were left on by republicans on the east coast of ROI to guide in the bombers

Not to mention the U boat refuelling...

blinding

10-15 years

I wonder how much affect, that many older Irish people have had more children than their British counterparts.

Older People having Children and Grand Children to look out for them would certainly be an advantage.

Many British People had small or no families down the years. This could leave many of them without family ( for all sorts of reasons ). This may well be a factor !

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not to mention the U boat refuelling...

Oh that old canard.

Ha. You're scraping.

jm08

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Can you tell me then,what happens to non Catholics?
I've no problem with anyone's religious beliefs btw.

First of all, I'm pointing out the differences in what people believe who follow these religions and the reason why I've gone into this was to try and explain to Downcow, who couldn't understand why nationalists (catholics) could vote for people who have done some awful things during the troubles.



Every religion have their own beliefs - for example, some believe in reincarnation. The list is too long to go into it further, but here is a list of different religions where you can look up their beliefs.


I've no problem with anyone's religious belief either by the way!
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/06/the_odd_body_religion/

jm08

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not to mention the U boat refuelling...

Good article here by Bob Fisk in the the UK Independent about this falacy.


Good story about Philip Mountbatten slipping over the border from NI to court a girl who worked in a post office in Donegal!



https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wrong man downcow

Absolutely Francie. Sincere apologies. You do come out with some strange assertions, but this is not one I would expect you to be harping on about.
I think it was JM08. Maybe he will rush forward with an answer, or not.

Apologies again. Certainly the wrong man

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely Francie. Sincere apologies. You do come out with some strange assertions, but this is not one I would expect you to be harping on about.
I think it was JM08. Maybe he will rush forward with an answer, or not.

Apologies again. Certainly the wrong man

I am eating a lot of humble pie tonight. Apologies also to JM08, it seems he did rush forward with an answer of sorts. His answer does show his misunderstanding of the reformed faith, but fair play to him for answering.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

First of all, I'm pointing out the differences in what people believe who follow these religions and the reason why I've gone into this was to try and explain to Downcow, who couldn't understand why nationalists (catholics) could vote for people who have done some awful things during the troubles.

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You do not get off that easy JM08. Even the Catholic faith suggests that they must repent and accept they have done wrong to receive this forgiveness. I missed the bit in the Catholic faith which says that you can to horrible wrongs, and then eulogise them annually, but yet receive forgiveness for them.

Could you help me with this?

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

You do not get off that easy JM08. Even the Catholic faith suggests that they must repent and accept they have done wrong to receive this forgiveness. I missed the bit in the Catholic faith which says that you can to horrible wrongs, and then eulogise them annually, but yet receive forgiveness for them.

Could you help me with this?

Who are you thinking of here? Can you give me an example?

Are they not dead by the time they are eulogised? As RCs*, they would have received the last rites when dying! After that then there is purgatory.

*You may have seen catholic priests attending people who were shot/injured during the Troubles. They are anointing them (giving them the last rites).

edit: the point is that forgiveness is a major part of Roman Catholic belief.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Who are you thinking of here? Can you give me an example?

Are they not dead by the time they are eulogised? As RCs*, they would have received the last rites when dying! After that then there is purgatory.

*You may have seen catholic priests attending people who were shot/injured during the Troubles. They are anointing them (giving them the last rites).

edit: the point is that forgiveness is a major part of Roman Catholic belief.

Ok. Fair point. But I missed Michelle O’Neill or Conor Murphy getting the last rights, which were the people we were talking about.
Are you saying they have had the last rights?
Your whole point was that ira and Uvf could talk to each other because they had received forgiveness.
So would Conor and Michelle have received forgiveness for their actions while members of the ira?

downcow

On a funny note. I took a cross community group of young people to meet a priest some time ago and some of the prods asked him what purgatory was.
He said it was like a washing machine and depending on how dirty you were you may need a longer cycle. The catholics wee absolutely disgusted and the prods thought it was hilarious
If I knew how to do laughing faces I would do one now lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

On a funny note. I took a cross community group of young people to meet a priest some time ago and some of the prods asked him what purgatory was.
He said it was like a washing machine and depending on how dirty you were you may need a longer cycle. The catholics wee absolutely disgusted and the prods thought it was hilarious
If I knew how to do laughing faces I would do one now lol

Something seriously off about that yarn.
A self confessed loyalist taking a cross community group to see a priest and the priest horrified the Catholics?

Cool story.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Ok. Fair point. But I missed Michelle O’Neill or Conor Murphy getting the last rights, which were the people we were talking about.
Are you saying they have had the last rights?
Your whole point was that ira and Uvf could talk to each other because they had received forgiveness.
So would Conor and Michelle have received forgiveness for their actions while members of the ira?

1. Michelle O'Neill or Conor Murphy might give a eulogy for someone who is dead at the funeral or at a memorial service. They would not be eulogised themselves as they are still alive.

2. They might have received the last Rites if they were seriously ill and likely to die, but its probably unlikely that they have.
3. No my point was about you not being able to understand why nationalists (catholics) actually voted for Sinn Fein members who had been active members of the Provos.
4. As for IRA and UVF getting on well together - I don't think this is unusual that people who went through a similar traumatic experience being able to talk to each other. In fact, it is said that the only people they can talk to about it are with people who have had a similar experience. Nothing unusual about that.

jm08

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Something seriously off about that yarn.
A self confessed loyalist taking a cross community group to see a priest and the priest horrified the Catholics?

Cool story.

Thats a bit of a tall one alright.

downcow

This is absolutely excellent from Owen Polley. He just outlines the facts of what sf have been up to during covid 19 crisis.
It is grim reading and each paragraph brings more disgrace.
How would there ever be a united ireland with these self-promoting guys around.

<mod edit> Article can be found here:
https://capx.co/sinn-fein-is-ruthlessly-exploiting-the-coronavirus-crisis/

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Owen Polly is a bitter Unionist. Who cares what he writes? SF were right to ignore London who dithered and then did a 180 and now risks becoming the worst hit country in Europe despite having a couple of weeks of watching the disaster unfold in Italy.

Britain is being run by a bunch of idiots, if Unionists want to follow their lead let them - let SF and people who look to Dublin do their own thing and don't get all pissy about it. British incompetence and downright scumbaggery has killed enough Irish people down through the generations, why would anyone expect us to start trusting them now? We'd be bigger fools than your Government.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Owen Polly is a bitter Unionist. Who cares what he writes? SF were right to ignore London who dithered and then did a 180 and now risks becoming the worst hit country in Europe despite having a couple of weeks of watching the disaster unfold in Italy.

Britain is being run by a bunch of idiots, if Unionists want to follow their lead let them - let SF and people who look to Dublin do their own thing and don't get all pissy about it. British incompetence and downright scumbaggery has killed enough Irish people down through the generations, why would anyone expect us to start trusting them now? We'd be bigger fools than your Government.

Shoot the messenger. Tbh if I was you I wouldn’t have had any answer either. It’s a pretty damming set of facts.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Owen Polly is a bitter Unionist. Who cares what he writes? SF were right to ignore London who dithered and then did a 180 and now risks becoming the worst hit country in Europe despite having a couple of weeks of watching the disaster unfold in Italy.

Britain is being run by a bunch of idiots, if Unionists want to follow their lead let them - let SF and people who look to Dublin do their own thing and don't get all pissy about it. British incompetence and downright scumbaggery has killed enough Irish people down through the generations, why would anyone expect us to start trusting them now? We'd be bigger fools than your Government.

Here is Alex scates saying basically the same thing. I do think his line “ ..... their everlasting binary inner monologue whispering in their ear that British is bad and Irish is good.” fits a few of the posters on here very well to.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/04/14/not-even-a-global-pandemic-can-bring-sinn-fein-to-welcome-help-from-the-brits/

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is absolutely excellent from Owen Polley. He just outlines the facts of what sf have been up to during covid 19 crisis.
It is grim reading and each paragraph brings more disgrace.
How would there ever be a united ireland with these self-promoting guys around.

A far more blistering article could be written about Arlene and the DUP's hatred of the Irish destroying the North. Not just around the pandemic either.

MoN and john O'Dowd have shown that they can change their minds when they see they are part of a macabre herd immunity experiment that even the Brits have volte faced from now and are busily trying to cover up and deny.

The PPE episode turned out to be a haughty scolding from Jim Allister about somebody making the mistake of using the wrong term. Moderate Unionism now accepts what actually happened.

And the funeral was a mistake and should not have happened.

So that is about it as far as Polley goes. He makes a similar job of turning it into a 'look at themuns hate filled rant' as yourself though. Well done on finding a like mind.

Has Arlene apologised for putting the entire island at risk yet? Is she going to dangerously and recklessly diverge again if we as an island come under threat?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

MoN and john O'Dowd have shown that they can change their minds when they see they are part of a macabre herd immunity experiment that even the Brits have volte faced from now and are busily trying to cover up and deny.

The PPE episode turned out to be a haughty scolding from Jim Allister about somebody making the mistake of using the wrong term. Moderate Unionism now accepts what actually happened.

On the school closure, MON changed her mind overnight, there were no big revelations in that time. SF realised the optics of having 2 different approaches on the island were bad and did a quick about turn.

MON may of made a mistake but Murphy knew what stage the negotiation for PPE were at yet he went public anyways. He was too eager to show the benefits of co-operation with the south and it back fired.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

On the school closure, MON changed her mind overnight, there were no big revelations in that time. SF realised the optics of having 2 different approaches on the island were bad and did a quick about turn.

MON may of made a mistake but Murphy knew what stage the negotiation for PPE were at yet he went public anyways. He was too eager to show the benefits of co-operation with the south and it back fired.

Things were moving very fast. There was loads of info coming into the public domain about the UK's policy and Cummings sinister influencing of it.
If the 'goal' was to cover blushes about 2 different approaches they would never have gone with the UK approach to begin with. Doesn't make any sense as a theory.
As a sin, if you are correct about Murphy (about which I think you are wrong) it is hardly a major one.
He believed he had a deal and had even begun processing the payment, why not allay the fears of the sector and the people?

jm08

20-30 years

jh79 wrote: »

On the school closure, MON changed her mind overnight, there were no big revelations in that time. SF realised the optics of having 2 different approaches on the island were bad and did a quick about turn.

Didn't the big change come around the time of the North-South Ministerial meeting in Armagh in the middle of March (which was attended by both Ministers of Health and both Chief Medical Officers) and when people were hopping mad about Cheltenham going ahead, particularly when all St. Patrick's Day festivities were cancelled in ROI.



It just looks to me that up to then, Michelle was listening to the British Chief Medical Officer who was definately not taking the advice from the WHO of test, test and test.

MON may of made a mistake but Murphy knew what stage the negotiation for PPE were at yet he went public anyways. He was too eager to show the benefits of co-operation with the south and it back fired.

Or, maybe just didn't realise how difficult it was going to be to get PPE. Even Germany got screwed by some scam.


Even though Ireland is involved in the EU's precurement, it is still using using every bit of influence that it has to get more (i.e., Bono writing to South Korean President, and Irishman, Mr China, vetting vendors and checking PPE production in China for Ireland).

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

Didn't the big change come around the time of the North-South Ministerial meeting in Armagh in the middle of March (which was attended by both Ministers of Health and both Chief Medical Officers) and when people were hopping mad about Cheltenham going ahead, particularly when all St. Patrick's Day festivities were cancelled in ROI.



It just looks to me that up to then, Michelle was listening to the British Chief Medical Officer who was definately not taking the advice from the WHO of test, test and test.

MON / SF changed their minds overnight. The only explanation in the absence of any revelations that night, is the optics of SF treating the north differently.

jm08

20-30 years

jh79 wrote: »

MON / SF changed their minds overnight. The only explanation in the absence of any revelations that night, is the optics of SF treating the north differently.

Changed overnight when they met on North-South Ministerial Council and the Irish Medical Officer, Simon Harris and Leo Varadkar told them to take their advice from the WHO.

Bearing in mind the problems the UK & NI are having with sourcing PPE and ventilators and not even counting the deaths in Care Homes or deaths in the community, I think maybe MON was onto something when she did change her mind.

The Welsh and Scots are complaining that they can't get PPE because its all being diverted to England. The Care Homes outside the NHS are finding it particularly difficult in Scotland.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

This is absolutely excellent from Owen Polley. He just outlines the facts of what sf have been up to during covid 19 crisis.
It is grim reading and each paragraph brings more disgrace.
How would there ever be a united ireland with these self-promoting guys around.
Hope it is ok for me to paste article in full as the link is a bit iffy.

“Sinn Fein is ruthlessly exploiting the coronavirus crisis
Sinn Fein is exploiting coronavirus to push its all-Ireland agenda
For Sinn Fein, self-promotion seems to be classed as an 'essential' reason to leave the house
For some republicans, hatred of Britain trumps the opportunity to save lives
The maxim that one should “never let a good crisis go to waste” is being tested to destruction in Northern Ireland by Sinn Fein. The republican party is an integral part of the power-sharing executive at Stormont, but rather than accept shared responsibility for the province’s response to coronavirus, it has sniped bitterly from the sidelines and exploited the disease to advance an all-Ireland agenda.

For one brief afternoon, though, it looked like the Shinners might adopt a more responsible approach.

After the Republic of Ireland decided to shut its schools in the face of overwhelming public pressure back in mid-March, Sinn Fein’s deputy first minister, Michelle O’Neill, told journalists at a joint executive press conference that “we (in Northern Ireland) have not reached that stage yet. We are guided by the science and the medical advice that suggests this is not the right decision at this time”.

The very next day, science and medical advice provided by, among others, the chief medical officer, was jettisoned, as O’Neill announced that “on the back of the angst that there is among the general public, now is the time to take action”. This almost instant U-turn was put into context by her demand that the executive accept a ‘joined-up approach across the island” rather than taking guidance from Westminster.

The party’s representatives followed up this volte-face by directing a deluge of bad-tempered abuse at the UK government. John O’Dowd, formerly education minister in Northern Ireland, tweeted that the “shire of bastards” in London was conducting a “twisted medical experiment” on “everyone of us” (sic). The former MEP and convicted bomber, Martina Anderson, appealed for “fortress Ireland” to withstand the wave of disease coming from Great Britain and praised schools that closed in defiance of official advice.

Sinn Fein has maintained this oppositional stance ever since, even as its ministers take part in joint press conferences and make official announcements on behalf of the executive.

Rather than contribute to the province’s coronavirus strategy, its representatives have viciously attacked their colleagues in devolved government. In an interview on the BBC’s The View programme, O’Neill accused the Ulster Unionist health minister, Robin Swann, of “slavishly following the Boris Johnson model”, implying that his refusal to copy the Republic of Ireland was responsible for an inadequate supply of personal protection equipment (PPE) and insufficient testing for the virus.

Last week, Martina Anderson went further on the Nolan radio programme, claiming that there is no testing programme at all in Northern Ireland. Her remarks came twenty-four hours after O’Neill, acting in her role as deputy first minister, assured the Assembly that testing for Covid-19 was well underway.

In fact, with the Republic of Ireland confirming that it will prioritise testing for hospital patients and healthcare workers, its strategy is in line with the situation in Northern Ireland. And, comparatively, the NHS in Ulster has tested a greater proportion of its population than equivalents in the rest of the United Kingdom.

As for PPE, O’Neill launched her attack on Swann just hours before it was revealed that her party’s finance minister, Conor Murphy, had failed to lodge a significant ‘joint order’ with the Dublin government to bring equipment from China. Murphy previously claimed that this consignment would “satisfy our supply needs”, while O’Neill assured the Assembly that a contract had been signed to guarantee the deal.

Last week, authorities in the Irish Republic confirmed that “it had not proved possible to place a joint order” for the equipment. Meanwhile, the health minister took delivery of over five million pieces of PPE provided by the government in London. Rather than show contrition for making unfounded promises, Murphy blustered that “someone from inside government” had briefed the media that the order had fallen through.

In addition, while Sinn Fein demands that everyone else must take more stringent measures ever more quickly against Covid-19, it is more forgiving when it comes to its activists and supporters. The party’s representatives in Belfast have engaged in an appallingly crass campaign, erecting branded banners on railings at public parks, to provide ‘information’ to the general public. For the Shinners, it seems political self-promotion constitutes an ‘essential’ reason to leave the house.

Then, last week, former Sinn Fein councillor Francis McNally was buried amidst crowds of mourners, a colour party and a republican procession. This blatant disregard for social-distancing, and the party’s failure to condemn it, prompted the Belfast News Letter to note that, “many people across Northern Ireland have the sense that there is one rule for republicans and another for the rest of us”.

Sinn Fein’s cynicism and hypocrisy won’t come as a surprise to anybody who observes Ulster politics closely. The party will do anything to undermine Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom and, such is its fanaticism, an unprecedented public health emergency is viewed as another opportunity to attack the Union.

The flimsy pretence that it might still be acting in good faith was destroyed beyond repair at the weekend, as Sinn Fein tried to block the health minister’s request for the army to help construct a field hospital at the old Maze prison site, outside Lisburn. For republicans, their hatred of Britain and its troops trumps the opportunity to save lives.

In a particularly dismal example of this mindset, the Irish Times reported that Michelle O’Neill objected to an early Covid-19 patient being air-lifted to Newcastle-upon-Tyne for specialist treatment. The paper says that Sinn Fein’s northern leader, “complained he should have gone to Dublin”, but Arlene Foster, “politely but emphatically told her the location of the hospital did not matter but rather the level of care”.

It’s been obvious for some time that republicans intended to blame coronavirus deaths in Northern Ireland on the ‘partition’ of the island and the involvement in its affairs of the British government. The fact that, as a proportion of confirmed cases, the death rate here is lower than both the Republic and the rest of the UK, won’t affect this strategy one iota.

Currently, Northern Ireland’s system of devolved government requires Sinn Fein to be included in a ‘mandatory coalition’ at Stormont. The Covid-19 crisis confirms that, no matter how serious the circumstances, the party can never be trusted to work constructively with its partners in the Executive.”

When was this written because its not going to age well, particularly the lauding of the sourcing of PPE (lack of), neglect of care homes and complete lack of testing in the community.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Shoot the messenger. Tbh if I was you I wouldn’t have had any answer either. It’s a pretty damming set of facts.

Were there questions to answer?

All you did was post a wall of text from a well known bitter unionist.

Funny how you ignored Polley a few weeks back when he was taking to town on twitter for his bigotry.