How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"But what about themmuns"

A nice succinct summation of all of your posts on here.

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You're so belligerent and you have what you want, ie. a little sectarian statelet. So the status quo suits you. You'd think you'd be happy.

Why oh why then are you so angry and belligerent? I mean, you think a UI is NEVER going to happen and it just seems all you keep doing is trying to convince yourself of that potential reality.

It must be hard to be so unhappy and reactionary with the status quo all the time. I pity you.

A life of constantly looking over your shoulder and under the bed is not a good one.

feargale

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A uniquely blinkered perspective 20 years after t

How long this abject refusal to deal with peacetime, in a democratic way, goes on in belligerent Unionism and fearful partitionism, remains to be seen.

But the evidence from the electorate north and south is that it is thankfully dying out so as an excuse it is on it's last legs.

If you take a beast to the fair or the market, and you get a good price for him, you don't gloat or rub the buyer's nose in it. You will be meeting the same buyer at the next fair or market. But trust SF/IRA to do the opposite. The ink wasn't dry on the GFA when they were careering around Belfast in open-top cars claiming victory and rubbing loyalist/unionist noses in it.
Therein lie most of the problems that have attended the GFA and its implementation. You succeeded in convincing much of the other side that they had suffered an abject, humiliating defeat. They had not. They had simply bowed to principles of equality. But that is beside the point.
What you did may have consolidated your position among your own supporters, but you damaged the chances of achieving what you so loudly profess to be your ultimate goal.

downcow

If you southerners are daft enough to unite with us, then this is coming your way.
Republicans continue to fly in the face of laws and public appeals.
Here is funeral number 4 that’s has been reported - and I know they were out in their regalia at a cemetery near me yesterday unreported approx 200. Nice caring people

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/psni-criticised-for-failing-to-break-up-large-crowd-at-republican-funeral-in-belfast-39131372.html

Will the guards turn a blind eye to this in same way as Psni

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

If you southerners are daft enough to unite with us,

Interesting position.

"Why would you want us, we're a bit shít."

It's novel, I'll give you that.

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Republicans coming down here? Interesting!

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I think you'll find that the group struggling to deal with peacetime and a progressive Norther Ireland with slowly maturing politics, are the Shinners.
All other parties are completely united during Covid crisis, while Sinn Fein is at odds and playing silly games.
I have been extreemly impressed for once with DUP, SDLP, Aliance, UUP, PBP, etc in their adult approach

Didn't Swann throw a hissy fit in Stormont yesterday when the PBP MLA asked him about the situation in care homes? According to the Irish Times anyway!

‘How dare you?’
Mr Swann, when answering questions in the Assembly, took “great exception” to People before Profit MLA Gerry Carroll suggesting he wasn’t properly attentive to the plight of care home residents.
“Does he honestly believe that I or members of this house or members of my department don’t have people and family members in those care homes?” he asked. “So, how dare you, how dare you accuse us of not caring?”

It would also seem from what Swann said is that maybe Michelle was right and that it was too early line up the British Army to build a Nightingale Hospital in Belfast when he now says that it won't be as bad as expected.

FrancieBrady

feargale wrote: »

If you take a beast to the fair or the market, and you get a good price for him, you don't gloat or rub the buyer's nose in it. You will be meeting the same buyer at the next fair or market. But trust SF/IRA to do the opposite. The ink wasn't dry on the GFA when they were careering around Belfast in open-top cars claiming victory and rubbing loyalist/unionist noses in it.
Therein lie most of the problems that have attended the GFA and its implementation. You succeeded in convincing much of the other side that they had suffered an abject, humiliating defeat. They had not. They had simply bowed to principles of equality. But that is beside the point.
What you did may have consolidated your position among your own supporters, but you damaged the chances of achieving what you so loudly profess to be your ultimate goal.

Forgive the people who had had their noses rubbed in it and were treated as second class citizens in their own land for an expression of victory?

It was a massive win for nationalists anyhow, it was the tacit withdrawal of Britain.
They would no longer defend their 'ownership' of a part of Ireland. If a majority wanted them gone, well, they were going.
Unionism has never accepted that nor ever recovered from it.

Life for a nationalist is unrecognisable from what it was even when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, nothing you can say will diminish what was achieved, however mealymouthed you want to be about it. A little bit of empathy might help you understand why the GFA was a victory in more ways than one.

jm08

20-30 years

feargale wrote: »

If you take a beast to the fair or the market, and you get a good price for him, you don't gloat or rub the buyer's nose in it. You will be meeting the same buyer at the next fair or market. But trust SF/IRA to do the opposite. The ink wasn't dry on the GFA when they were careering around Belfast in open-top cars claiming victory and rubbing loyalist/unionist noses in it.

What a bizarre observation. The beauty of the GFA was that everyone thought they were the winner - i.e., the British Army had defeated the IRA because they surrendered their arms would have been the opposite taunt.

Therein lie most of the problems that have attended the GFA and its implementation. You succeeded in convincing much of the other side that they had suffered an abject, humiliating defeat. They had not. They had simply bowed to principles of equality. But that is beside the point.
What you did may have consolidated your position among your own supporters, but you damaged the chances of achieving what you so loudly profess to be your ultimate goal.

In fairness, unionists would have done much better if they had not rejected Sunningdale and/or The Anglo Irish Agreement.



Seriously though, who could be so petty as to carry a grudge for 20 years because a few republicans had gone around in an open top car in West Belfast?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Forgive the people who had had their noses rubbed in it and were treated as second class citizens in their own land for an expression of victory?

It was a massive win for nationalists anyhow, it was the tacit withdrawal of Britain.
They would no longer defend their 'ownership' of a part of Ireland. If a majority wanted them gone, well, they were going.
Unionism has never accepted that nor ever recovered from it.

Life for a nationalist is unrecognisable from what it was even when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, nothing you can say will diminish what was achieved, however mealymouthed you want to be about it. A little bit of empathy might help you understand why the GFA was a victory in more ways than one.

A victory for us all then Francie. Win win. So why won’t the shinners play ball with everyone else until they get their majority. According to you they won’t have long to wait.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

A victory for us all then Francie. Win win. So why won’t the shinners play ball with everyone else until they get their majority. According to you they won’t have long to wait.

What is playing ball? What are they not doing?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

A victory for us all then Francie. Win win. So why won’t the shinners play ball with everyone else until they get their majority. According to you they won’t have long to wait.

The 'shinners' were on the right side of Brexit and were on the right side of Covid...both from an 'island' point of view.

That will be remembered long after your current doomed love-in with the Tories is forgotten.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Interesting to see the north extending the lockdown in line with the South for 3 more weeks. It's like the All-Ireland approach might be the best way forward.

Also seems the Temp Hospital at the Maze idea has been abandoned, instead it will be co-located with Belfast City.

Interesting comments from the North's CMO as well to say that the all-island approach is working and best way forward.

feargale

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Forgive the people who had had their noses rubbed in it and were treated as second class citizens in their own land for an expression of victory?

It was a massive win for nationalists anyhow, it was the tacit withdrawal of Britain.
They would no longer defend their 'ownership' of a part of Ireland. If a majority wanted them gone, well, they were going.

And nothing was learned from history. The Germans were far from blameless in WWI. They had their noses rubbed in it at Versailles, and we know how happily that story ended.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionism has never accepted that nor ever recovered from it.

You are simply reenforcing my point, except that you are omitting the fact that a substantial minority of them endorsed the GFA and that some others have begrudgigly resigned themselves to it in the meantime.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Life for a nationalist is unrecognisable from what it was even when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, nothing you can say will diminish what was achieved, however mealymouthed you want to be about it. A little bit of empathy might help you understand why the GFA was a victory in more ways than one.

I don't need a sermon on empathy from apologists for the organisation that perpetrated the atrocities of Abercorn, Birmingham, Claudy, Enniskillen, Kingsmill ("Who is the Catholic?") and
Warrington, that murdered a young census-taker in cold blood and that murdered my friend.

You've really come the heavy this time. I must have pissed off your puppetmaster. You're rattled, aren't you?

eire4

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Interesting to see the north extending the lockdown in line with the South for 3 more weeks. It's like the All-Ireland approach might be the best way forward.

Also seems the Temp Hospital at the Maze idea has been abandoned, instead it will be co-located with Belfast City.

Interesting comments from the North's CMO as well to say that the all-island approach is working and best way forward.

Right now deaths per million in the UK are running at 202 and increasing sadly. In Ireland the number is 98 and again increasing although at a slightly slower rate. The testing numbers per million of population are telling also in the UK currently it is 6,152 in Ireland it is 18,358.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eire4 wrote: »

Right now deaths per million in the UK are running at 202 and increasing sadly. In Ireland the number is 98 and again increasing although at a slightly slower rate. The testing numbers per million of population are telling also in the UK currently it is 6,152 in Ireland it is 18,358.

I commend the North for reporting their care home deaths in their figures like the South.

This is not a reunification post, and it must be said at all times, even if reunification is rejected All-Island approaches to most things are almost always preferable and more successful. It's just sad that Unionism sees it always through the prism of "threat". You have what you want, why not make it better?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I commend the North for reporting their care home deaths in their figures like the South.

This is not a reunification post, and it must be said at all times, even if reunification is rejected All-Island approaches to most things are almost always preferable and more successful. It's just sad that Unionism sees it always through the prism of "threat". You have what you want, why not make it better?

That is a laugh from someone who is suggesting that because the uk announced a lockdown extension it means uk are following ROI. Do you really believe that. Could you be that far up your own ar*e. Surely not. Lol

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

feargale wrote: »

And nothing was learned from history. The Germans were far from blameless in WWI. They had their noses rubbed in it at Versailles, and we know how happily that story ended.

We've finally gotten to Godwin.

How was the happiness and euphoria around the cessation as the Irish Times called it, "rubbing it in the faces of Unionists" and the equivalent of Versailles?



If you recall, the celebrations of the IRA ceasefire came almost exclusively form Nationalists. I mean even that fact should highlight just how wrong your assertion is above.

As I've posted before on this thread, "When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression".

This is how unionism has always operated when they get dragged kicking and screaming into the future.

You are simply reenforcing my point, except that you are omitting the fact that a substantial minority of them endorsed the GFA and that some others have begrudgigly resigned themselves to it in the meantime.

What does this mean? Nationalists can't be held responsible for Unionists being intractable. Again and again.

I mean, the way you spin that is interesting, yet when our resident Unionist seems to think the GFA is a capitulation from Nationalism

I don't need a sermon on empathy from apologists for the organisation that perpetrated the atrocities of Abercorn, Birmingham, Claudy, Enniskillen, Kingsmill ("Who is the Catholic?") and
Warrington, that murdered a young census-taker in cold blood and that murdered my friend.

I'm sorry for your loss. I could never imagine it. My only connection to Troubles deaths are 2nd or third removed; that is to say tenuous.
I'm fully able to condemn all violence, and never agreed with the IRA murderous campaign, but absolutely see why it came about and understood the motives.

Again these thoughts can be held at the same time. Nothing in Ireland is black and white.

And the thing is conflating the "IRA" and their campaign of violence with all nationalists and especially northern nationalists is not on though.

Voting for SF is NOT voting for the IRA. And I say that as someone who voted for FG, and gave my first ever preference* to SF in the last GE

You've really come the heavy this time. I must have pissed off your puppetmaster. You're rattled, aren't you?

This is a pointless and needless dig. Belligerence helps no-one.

*Technically it was my second time, as I gave Martin McGuinness a no.2 in the 2011 Presidential, but ye know what I mean, that was mostly tactical to keep "Sean the Thumb" out. It's great to be able to democratically elect your Head of State I must say.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

That is a laugh from someone who is suggesting that because the uk announced a lockdown extension it means uk are following ROI. Do you really believe that. Could you be that far up your own ar*e. Surely not. Lol

I'm sorry, didn't the North announce iits lockdown extension before Britain?

I mean, either way, being in lockstep with the rest of the island is most welcomed by us all.

Interesting you have to fight the point though. It's very sad.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sorry, didn't the North announce iits lockdown extension before Britain?

I mean, either way, being in lockstep with the rest of the island is most welcomed by us all.

Interesting you have to fight the point though. It's very sad.

this is pathetic political points scoring.
The UK has moved forward with a 3 week lockdown and you are suggesting NI, Scotland and Wales are following ROI because they announced it before Westminster press conference.

Do you think Dublin is the centre of the universe and everyone is watching with admiration what you are doing

FrancieBrady

feargale wrote: »

And nothing was learned from history. The Germans were far from blameless in WWI. They had their noses rubbed in it at Versailles, and we know how happily that story ended.



You are simply reenforcing my point, except that you are omitting the fact that a substantial minority of them endorsed the GFA and that some others have begrudgigly resigned themselves to it in the meantime.

Those who signed up to or endorsed the GFA are those that can be persuaded away from 'Unionism' to my way of thinking.
They are moderates and realists. I didn't omit them at all. I know it sticks in your craw but there was a war/conflict and there was a winner of that. Look to who has footdragged and kicked and screamed about the clauses of the GFA to see who the losers were.
People celebrated because there was a victory for human rights and parity of esteem over bigotry and vetos and oppression...you may need to get over that - over 20 years later. :rolleyes:

I don't need a sermon on empathy from apologists for the organisation that perpetrated the atrocities of Abercorn, Birmingham, Claudy, Enniskillen, Kingsmill ("Who is the Catholic?") and
Warrington, that murdered a young census-taker in cold blood and that murdered my friend.

You've really come the heavy this time. I must have pissed off your puppetmaster. You're rattled, aren't you?

Again there has to be a 'puppetmaster'. Has it still not dawned on your patronising sensibility that we Irish can talk for ourselves?

I could construct a list pf atrocity like you have above if I was minded and fooled myself that only one side is to blame for atrocities in war and conflict but I wouldn't lower myself to that sick game. I could also name family who were killed too if I wanted to indulge in biased faux outrage.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm sorry, didn't the North announce iits lockdown extension before Britain?

I mean, either way, being in lockstep with the rest of the island is most welcomed by us all.

Interesting you have to fight the point though. It's very sad.

downcow has averted his eyes.

It was agreed that the chief medical officers on both sides of the border will sign a memorandum of understanding formalising cooperation between the Government and the Northern Ireland Executive.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those who signed up to or endorsed the GFA are those that can be persuaded away from 'Unionism' to my way of thinking.
They are moderates and realists. I didn't omit them at all. I know it sticks in your craw but there was a war/conflict and there was a winner of that. Look to who has footdragged and kicked and screamed about the clauses of the GFA to see who the losers were.
People celebrated because there was a victory for human rights and parity of esteem over bigotry and vetos and oppression...you may need to get over that - over 20 years later. :rolleyes:

Thank you Francie for referring to me as a moderate and a realist, but you analysis of Unionists like me who supported the GFA is badly skewed.

Ironically it is the Unioists that voted for the GFA that believed they were giving the defeated republicans something to save face with. So it is actually the moderates who believe the IRA were defeated. There are some hardline DUP extremes who believe they have not yet been finished off and that they will be back on the stage.

This was a very strange republican victory. 20 years on the Union is stronger, the people across communities are buying into Northern Ireland PLC and the polls in favour of a UI are weakening.
Anecdotal, i know - but I used to take care using the term NI in certain mixed company as the go to position for most catholics was 'the North' or 'Ireland'. I have noticed less need to do that now, a far greater percentage of catholics now refer by default to Northern Ireland, and it is lovely to see this change and develop. We are developing a shared language, which was not the case during the sectarian conflict.

So I am happy for you if you think it was an IRA win, but someday you will wake up and have your cornflakes. Its over Franci, UI is never happening

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

20 years on the Union is stronger,

Whatever you say downcow...whatever you say.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Thank you Francie for referring to me as a moderate and a realist, but you analysis of Unionists like me who supported the GFA is badly skewed.

Didn't you say you couldn't guarantee you would not respond with violence should Ireland be unified as per the terms set out in the GFA? Doesn't really paint you as a moderate and realist who supports the GFA, that...

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Didn't you say you couldn't guarantee you would not respond with violence should Ireland be unified as per the terms set out in the GFA? Doesn't really paint you as a moderate and realist who supports the GFA, that...

He did say that but will probably continue to back pedal away from it.

He likes to say he supports the GFA but very little of his attitude marries with that idea.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Didn't you say you couldn't guarantee you would not respond with violence should Ireland be unified as per the terms set out in the GFA? Doesn't really paint you as a moderate and realist who supports the GFA, that...

Firstly, it was Francie put me in the 'moderate realist' camp. I only thanked him.

But more importantly, I would like you either to provide evidence of where I said 'I couldn't guarantee i wouldn't respond with violence', or else retract it.
Thats a fairly nasty accusation

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He did say that but will probably continue to back pedal away from it.

He likes to say he supports the GFA but very little of his attitude marries with that idea.

same goes for you Francie. You made an false accusation against me around Bloody Sunday and I let it slide. I will be needing evidence on this violence remark, and not a spin either

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

same goes for you Francie. You made an false accusation against me around Bloody Sunday and I let it slide. I will be needing evidence on this violence remark, and not a spin either

downcow wrote:

I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.

It's implicit in the above statement and ones you made about a unified police force policing parts of Belfast...you said that would provoke 'world war 111' and joked about it.

There is no halfway house...you are either intending to be 'peaceful' or you are not.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Firstly, it was Francie put me in the 'moderate realist' camp. I only thanked him.

But more importantly, I would like you either to provide evidence of where I said 'I couldn't guarantee i wouldn't respond with violence', or else retract it.
Thats a fairly nasty accusation

I was thinking of the same quote as Francie, clearly. Thanks for saving me the hassle of trawling through thousands of ranting posts, Francie.

'I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.'

If one is not remaining peaceful, the alternative is responding with violence.....or are you going to do your usual spin, equivocation and point blank refusal to acknowledge reality?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I was thinking of the same quote as Francie, clearly. Thanks for saving me the hassle of trawling through thousands of ranting posts, Francie.

'I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.'

If one is not remaining peaceful, the alternative is responding with violence.....or are you going to do your usual spin, equivocation and point blank refusal to acknowledge reality?

So is that the way we are going to operate. I say something and you choose the antonym that suits your agenda best.
There are many antonyms to peaceful and most would not require anyone to step outside the law to enact. You know quite well from my attitude to the actions of sectarian scumbags like the ira or uvf that I will not be killing my catholic neighbour.

But at least you have clarified that I did not use the term violence or imply violence.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So is that the way we are going to operate. I say something and you choose the antonym that suits your agenda best.
There are many antonyms to peaceful and most would not require anyone to step outside the law to enact. You know quite well from my attitude to the actions of sectarian scumbags like the ira or uvf that I will not be killing my catholic neighbour.

But at least you have clarified that I did not use the term violence or imply violence.

A couple of sentences before or after that statement you were chuckling about sending the AGS into Belfast - World War 111 would ensue you reckoned.

No doubt what you were implying even if you now want to water it down. As I said...there is no halfway house...you are either peaceful or you are not.