How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Let's break it down and see if there is any truth in it, with respect to your offerings here downcow.

1. IMHO what they say is a euphemism for a protestant parliament for a protestant people,

You constantly get caught out referring to NI as 'our wee country', 'if you think a million Unionists are going to accept the 'end of our country'. You constantly try to play the Protestant people of NI as the main victims...conveinently forgetting what was done up until the lid came off and that Protestant parliament was opposed.

2. July 12th bonfires and marching etc which ultimately are all about triumphalism and the domination of one group over another.
The above could be the raison d'etre for the existence of the body you oppose and hate - The Parades Commission, the very body that has stood strong against expressions of dominance and triumphalism and hate. SO successful has it been that Unionism can now proclaim (and does without a hint of irony or shame) that the majority of it's marches pass off without incidence. The bonfire orgies of hate and bigotry are still an annual issue though.

3. It is about longing for a return to that and a fear of becoming a minority in a country and within a culture they have repressed/discriminated against for so long that they fear there will be turn around on them.

This was expressed just yesterday when you, yourself toured these entire islands to find a 'partner', 'union' or 'solution' other than the natural one with the rest of the people on this island. Fear not to mention loathing writ large.

4. There won't but the fear they have is very real because they know what they did.”

Ian Paisley's late in life self awareness of what the Protestant state for a Protestant people had done.

So I am seeing not much in the way of sectarian bigoted analysis. Rather it is a cold hard look at the facts of history.

Don't really have time to respond now but I will in due course. This suits you to try and secretarianise my culture. There are so many holes and gaps in what you say. I think each ridiculous point needs responded to point by point

Paul_Crosby

downcow what is your definition of the strong NI culture?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Don't really have time to respond now but I will in due course. This suits you to try and secretarianise my culture. There are so many holes and gaps in what you say. I think each ridiculous point needs responded to point by point

I'm not 'sectarianising your culture'. I most certainly am 'sectarianising' those parts of your culture that are and were, 'sectarian' though.
And NO, before you go down the 'look at themun's' line, I am not saying for a minute that parts of my culture have not been sectarian. They have been, and I am not afraid to admit the extent of it.

Paul_Crosby

downcow wrote: »

Don't really have time to respond now but I will in due course. This suits you to try and secretarianise my culture. There are so many holes and gaps in what you say. I think each ridiculous point needs responded to point by point

What was sectarian about what he said?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Let's break it down and see if there is any truth in it, with respect to your offerings here downcow.

my responses in bold to you nonsense

1. IMHO what they say is a euphemism for a protestant parliament for a protestant people,

You constantly get caught out referring to NI as 'our wee country', 'if you think a million Unionists are going to accept the 'end of our country'. You constantly try to play the Protestant people of NI as the main victims...conveinently forgetting what was done up until the lid came off and that Protestant parliament was opposed.

What do you mean ‘caught out’. Our wee country is a term of affection being increasingly used to refer to Northern Ireland. It very much started around the football team, but has now extended into media, etc, and is increasingly used by moderate nationalism. I completely understand that strong Republicans will not be using it. It’s a bit like you referring to the ‘Emerald Isle’. And of course I am not in denial about the past on both sides of the border i.e. a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people, which I understand was said in response to an earlier comment about ROI being a Catholic country for a catholic people. So who is in denial??

2. July 12th bonfires and marching etc which ultimately are all about triumphalism and the domination of one group over another.
The above could be the raison d'etre for the existence of the body you oppose and hate - The Parades Commission, the very body that has stood strong against expressions of dominance and triumphalism and hate. SO successful has it been that Unionism can now proclaim (and does without a hint of irony or shame) that the majority of it's marches pass off without incidence. The bonfire orgies of hate and bigotry are still an annual issue though.

This is just ridiculous. You are agreeing yourself that the issues (which in the main were created by Sinn Fein activists under the direction of Gerry Adams) are very much ‘last century’. We can always pick out a few isolated excesses. If you want me to share some from benign nationalist events, just let me know - there is no shortage, but I am not going to slate e.g. the West Belfast Festival because of isolated incidences

3. It is about longing for a return to that and a fear of becoming a minority in a country and within a culture they have repressed/discriminated against for so long that they fear there will be turn around on them.
This was expressed just yesterday when you, yourself toured these entire islands to find a 'partner', 'union' or 'solution' other than the natural one with the rest of the people on this island. Fear not to mention loathing writ large.

I think you should read again what I said yesterday. If I recall the first option I mentioned was a union with the rest of the people on this island - but not the sort of union you want so you are blinded to even seeing it. The irony of this statement of yours is that I made an effort to come up with a range of options whilst you are hellbent on one only, and yet having a go at me about lack of options

4. There won't but the fear they have is very real because they know what they did.”

Ian Paisley's late in life self awareness of what the Protestant state for a Protestant people had done.

So yes, he did come to hate very late, and had to play catch up with the people who are very realistic, in the main, that things have not been perfect on this island for the last 100 years and beyond. Again you are blinded to think that the problem were all instigated by Protestants.

You continue to provide a very sad analysis of your neighbours

Paul_Crosby

What nationalists use the term "our wee country?", the term is not "increasingly used" either, where are you from?

Paul_Crosby

"You are agreeing yourself that the issues (which in the main were created by Sinn Fein activists under the direction of Gerry Adams)"

You are saying the issues around orange marches were created by Sinn Fein? Please tell me I'm picking you up wrong

FrancieBrady

***

downcow wrote:

1.What do you mean ‘caught out’. Our wee country is a term of affection being increasingly used to refer to Northern Ireland. It very much started around the football team, but has now extended into media, etc, and is increasingly used by moderate nationalism. I completely understand that strong Republicans will not be using it. It’s a bit like you referring to the ‘Emerald Isle’. And of course I am not in denial about the past on both sides of the border i.e. a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people, which I understand was said in response to an earlier comment about ROI being a Catholic country for a catholic people. So who is in denial??

You entirely skipped the 'if you think 1 million Unionists are going to accept the end of 'OUR' wee country' posts you have made here. There is no 'increasing use of that term in nationalism', utter invention to suggest there is. Typical of you downcow, that you refuse to stand over what you repeatedly say. Denial, you say?

2.
This is just ridiculous. You are agreeing yourself that the issues (which in the main were created by Sinn Fein activists under the direction of Gerry Adams) are very much ‘last century’. We can always pick out a few isolated excesses. If you want me to share some from benign nationalist events, just let me know - there is no shortage, but I am not going to slate e.g. the West Belfast Festival because of isolated incidences

Ha ha ha, again the absolutely bizarre contention that the issues around parading were 'in the main created by Gerry Adams'.
What rabbit hole/bubble are you living in?

I suppose the Gerry created the Parades Commission and the years of political wrangling and foot stamping that ensued?
'Isolated excesses'...Jesus H Christ, this is Trumpian levels of whitewashing history from a victimhood complex that is seriously alarming tbh.

I think you should read again what I said yesterday. If I recall the first option I mentioned was a union with the rest of the people on this island - but not the sort of union you want so you are blinded to even seeing it. The irony of this statement of yours is that I made an effort to come up with a range of options whilst you are hellbent on one only, and yet having a go at me about lack of options

Every solution you have, is geared towards satisfying the belligerent Unionist.
The natural union is a union with all the people of the island on which we live. If that can be made to work then we are all better off.
But you won't even try to work at it. It's the familiar and loud Never Never Never to OUR wee country.

4.

So yes, he did come to hate very late, and had to play catch up with the people who are very realistic, in the main, that things have not been perfect on this island for the last 100 years and beyond. Again you are blinded to think that the problem were all instigated by Protestants.

Again with the attempt to diminish what happened as a result of partition and the usurping of power by an artificially created bigoted Unionist/Protestant majority...'things were not perfect'...no **** Sherlock!

You just answered by making excuses downcow not to mention inventing some more fantasy victimhoods.

Paul_Crosby

I notice you said the unionist people go back on this island as long as 1000 years, are you by any chance a follower of the works of Ian Adamson, who believed they have a seperate ethnic identity to the Irish and the British and thus pushed for a seperate state?

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Just for the record, I have never heard someone of a Nationalist persuasion refer to, 'our wee country'. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're a tiny minority, and certainly not, 'increasingly common'. It is entirely associated with the NI football team, the fanship of which is almost entirely dominated by Unionist/Loyalist culture.

With regards to a distinct and independent NI, 'culture', I certainly don't identify with one. I can't think of anything offhand that I'd consider positive culture that is exclusively, 'Northern Irish' rather than a mixture of Irish and British/Scottish cultures.

Ultimately I have more in common culturally with the people I live beside since moving to the other side of the border than I do with people like Downcow, and he likely has more in common with the culture of an Orange Lodge member or bandsman from Glasgow than he does with me.

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

What nationalists use the term "our wee country?", the term is not "increasingly used" either, where are you from?

I suppose I mean nationalist in terms of community background and identity.
Just to dispel the idea that some are arguing on here that 'our wee country' is not now an accepted term for Nothern Ireland across society, here is a range of people using it - the wee video is worth a watch

Here is one example of one of our most famous (Catholic ) sports personalities is very comparable referring to Northern Ireland as our wee country
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/36510949

here is an in pumping few mins video from a prominent online news provider, who certainly is not unionist, telling you about 'our wee country'
https://www.facebook.com/BelfastLiveOnline/videos/1292301400914854/


And to of the first gay people to marry in the Republic tell us about life in 'are wee country'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/same-sex-marriage-co-antrim-couple-among-first-to-marry-in-republic-under-new-irish-law-34210508.html

And even the dog walkers
https://dogfriendlytours.co.uk/wow-simply-fabulous

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I suppose I mean nationalist in terms of community background and identity.
Just to dispel the idea that some are arguing on here that 'our wee country' is not now an accepted term for Nothern Ireland across society, here is a range of people using it - the wee video is worth a watch

Here is one example of one of our most famous (Catholic ) sports personalities is very comparable referring to Northern Ireland as our wee country
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/36510949

here is an in pumping few mins video from a prominent online news provider, who certainly is not unionist, telling you about 'our wee country'
https://www.facebook.com/BelfastLiveOnline/videos/1292301400914854/


And to of the first gay people to marry in the Republic tell us about life in 'are wee country'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/same-sex-marriage-co-antrim-couple-among-first-to-marry-in-republic-under-new-irish-law-34210508.html

And even the dog walkers
https://dogfriendlytours.co.uk/wow-simply-fabulous

Any catholic I have met from up north would support the republic over Northern Ireland in any football match.

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

"You are agreeing yourself that the issues (which in the main were created by Sinn Fein activists under the direction of Gerry Adams)"

You are saying the issues around orange marches were created by Sinn Fein? Please tell me I'm picking you up wrong

here you go.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/sp-denies-leading-ni-parade-protests-1.49059

and i cant find the meeting where he called on 'volunteers' to 'agitate' around orange parades

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I suppose I mean nationalist in terms of community background and identity.
Just to dispel the idea that some are arguing on here that 'our wee country' is not now an accepted term for Nothern Ireland across society, here is a range of people using it - the wee video is worth a watch

Here is one example of one of our most famous (Catholic ) sports personalities is very comparable referring to Northern Ireland as our wee country
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/36510949

here is an in pumping few mins video from a prominent online news provider, who certainly is not unionist, telling you about 'our wee country'
https://www.facebook.com/BelfastLiveOnline/videos/1292301400914854/


And to of the first gay people to marry in the Republic tell us about life in 'are wee country'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/same-sex-marriage-co-antrim-couple-among-first-to-marry-in-republic-under-new-irish-law-34210508.html

And even the dog walkers
https://dogfriendlytours.co.uk/wow-simply-fabulous

So that is ONE Catholic using it and 3 people of indeterminate backgrounds using it.

This is evidence of 'increasingly common' use of it in nationalist communities?

I'm just gonna laugh at this effort...sorry.

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

I notice you said the unionist people go back on this island as long as 1000 years, are you by any chance a follower of the works of Ian Adamson, who believed they have a seperate ethnic identity to the Irish and the British and thus pushed for a seperate state?

I think we are all a colourful ethnic mix. I was pointing out the special connection NI / Ulster has /had with the mainland

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

here you go.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/sp-denies-leading-ni-parade-protests-1.49059

and i cant find the meeting where he called on 'volunteers' to 'agitate' around orange parades

So you are saying there was no 'issues' with parades until Gerry got involved...is this correct?

*I'm getting the urge to giggle again!

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you are saying there was no 'issues' with parades until Gerry got involved...is this correct?

*I'm getting the urge to giggle again!

Next he/she will be telling us there was no trouble with British rule in Ireland until 1916 so deluded the commentary.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So that is ONE Catholic using it and 3 people of indeterminate backgrounds using it.

This is evidence of 'increasingly common' use of it in nationalist communities?

I'm just gonna laugh at this effort...sorry.

i gave you a fair range of examples. Ehat is it you want? 50 examples? I was told by many on here that it is only used in Northern Ireland football - I just evidenced that that statement was more nonsense

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Just for the record, I have never heard someone of a Nationalist persuasion refer to, 'our wee country'. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're a tiny minority, and certainly not, 'increasingly common'. It is entirely associated with the NI football team, the fanship of which is almost entirely dominated by Unionist/Loyalist culture.

With regards to a distinct and independent NI, 'culture', I certainly don't identify with one. I can't think of anything offhand that I'd consider positive culture that is exclusively, 'Northern Irish' rather than a mixture of Irish and British/Scottish cultures.

Ultimately I have more in common culturally with the people I live beside since moving to the other side of the border than I do with people like Downcow, and he likely has more in common with the culture of an Orange Lodge member or bandsman from Glasgow than he does with me.

Thats a bit sad. I have some much more in common with my catholic neighbours than any loyalist from Scotland or any Southerner

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

i gave you a fair range of examples. Ehat is it you want? 50 examples? I was told by many on here that it is only used in Northern Ireland football - I just evidenced that that statement was more nonsense

Take that up with the person who said it.

I called you on your bull**** that it was 'increasingly common' in the nationalist community.
Rory McIllroy is not a nationalist to my knowledge. And we have no idea of the background of the others, though in one of them i could guess that it isn't 'nationalist' either.

So still waiting for evidence of any sort that it is 'commonly' used in the nationalist community never mind 'increasingly common'.

Whenever you are ready.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Next he/she will be telling us there was no trouble with British rule in Ireland until 1916 so deluded the commentary.

Truly bizarre whitewashing of history going on alright.

downcow

So maybe it is time for a little summary as you guys pass over all the evidence.

Francie and downcow have both been requested several times to explain the culture/identity they belong to. Downcow has offered several times to do this as soon as Francie agrees to rise to the challenge. Francie is running scared.

Posters have stated that 'our wee country' is only ever used within Northern Ireland football circles, and that it is not a growing term of affection for Northern Ireland. Downcow has given sample evidence of it being used outside Northern Ireland football, and has offered more if posters want them.

Posters expressed surprise that Gerry Adams had anything to do with the parading difficulties. Downcow has provided an article from the Irish Times evidencing his part.

Some posters here claim they are not sectarianising Northern Ireland culture, but claims it amounts to little more than bonfires discrimination.

What an incredible mix of naivete and bigotry.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So maybe it is time for a little summary as you guys pass over all the evidence.

Francie and downcow have both been requested several times to explain the culture/identity they belong to. Downcow has offered several times to do this as soon as Francie agrees to rise to the challenge. Francie is running scared.

Francie has nothing to back up here as he never raised 'Irish Culture' as a subject. downcow spoke of a 'strong NI culture and identity' and despite being asked what this was by several posters refuses to back it up.

Posters have stated that 'our wee country' is only ever used within Northern Ireland football circles, and that it is not a growing term of affection for Northern Ireland. Downcow has given sample evidence of it being used outside Northern Ireland football, and has offered more if posters want them.

ONE poster has said it is exclusive to NI football. Others have asked for proof that it is 'increasingly common' in nationalist communities' which is the contention downcow made originally.

Fail again on proving there is even a semblance of truth in that.

Posters expressed surprise that Gerry Adams had anything to do with the parading difficulties. Downcow has provided an article from the Irish Times evidencing his part.

NOBODY..Not a single person had expressed 'surprise' that Adams had anything to do with parading issues.
What people are asking downcow...and he again REFUSES to address...is does he think there were NO issues with parading before Adams said what he said.

Some posters here claim they are not sectarianising Northern Ireland culture, but claims it amounts to little more than bonfires discrimination.

What an incredible mix of naivete and bigotry.

What?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Take that up with the person who said it.

I called you on your bull**** that it was 'increasingly common' in the nationalist community.
Rory McIllroy is not a nationalist to my knowledge. And we have no idea of the background of the others, though in one of them i could guess that it isn't 'nationalist' either.

So still waiting for evidence of any sort that it is 'commonly' used in the nationalist community never mind 'increasingly common'.

Whenever you are ready.

This is getting monotonous, so last example since you disown Rory etc. He is a good sound Toomebridge nationalist personality who refers to NI as 'our wee country' - case proven (again)
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motorcycling/john-laverty-jonathan-rea-isnt-northern-irelands-greatest-sportsperson-but-hes-in-the-debate-38548485.html

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is getting monotonous, so last example since you disown Rory etc. He is a good sound Toomebridge nationalist personality who refers to NI as 'our wee country' - case proven (again)
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motorcycling/john-laverty-jonathan-rea-isnt-northern-irelands-greatest-sportsperson-but-hes-in-the-debate-38548485.html

Could you feck up providing evidence of an 'increasingly common' use of a term used in the 'nationalist community' anymore?

A BELFAST TELEGRAPH journalist now is proof? Really?

FrancieBrady

All of the above tooing and froing as you desparately try to cover your gaff doesn't get away from your use of statements along the lines of 'If you think 1 million Unionists are going to tolerate the end of OUR country' either.

You see NI as 'YOURS' and nobody elses. That is the bottom line here downcow. Time and again you have inferred it, and it matches the behaviour of belligerent NEVER NEVER Unionism. Fact.

blinding

10-15 years

Is it Our Twee Country ? !

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Thats a bit sad. I have some much more in common with my catholic neighbours than any loyalist from Scotland or any Southerner

Hate to break it to you, but you don't. I have a lot more in common with my neighbours here than I did with hardline Loyalists when I lived back home. Despite your repeated attempts to pose as a moderate, you're not.

I love my GAA and Irish music, I identify strongly with the rich tapestry of literature and art throughout Irish history, despite being a pretty poor speaker of it myself, I like the Irish language. From small things like understanding the place names all across the island, to trying to have a broken conversation on the Aran Islands. These things are my culture, these things are the culture of your Nationalist neighbours.

What unique cultural identity do you and I (or if you feel that I'm painting myself as an outlier, your alleged Catholic neighbours) actually share, considering your openly hibernophobic stance? What do we share that can be totally detached and unique from Irishness or Britishness?

Paul_Crosby

When the loyalists marched down the Lower Ormeau Road and the nationalist people were beaten off the streets to let them past, the marchers held up 5 fingers and shouted "5 nil" in reference to the Sean Graham bookmakers massacre where 5 innocent people were murdered.

The nationalists fought back and injured some police officers, when this was brought to court the police didnt know that someone was videotaping the whole thing (this was the 90s and not many people had video cameras then) and caught the RUC smashing innocent people with batons, including hitting a man over the head who was simply trying to calm the situation down, he was knocked unconscious and dragged away as his blood ran through the street, the judge threw the case out and others were given claims.

Sinbad_NI

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but you don't. I have a lot more in common with my neighbours here than I did with hardline Loyalists when I lived back home. Despite your repeated attempts to pose as a moderate, you're not.

I love my GAA and Irish music, I identify strongly with the rich tapestry of literature and art throughout Irish history, despite being a pretty poor speaker of it myself, I like the Irish language. From small things like understanding the place names all across the island, to trying to have a broken conversation on the Aran Islands. These things are my culture, these things are the culture of your Nationalist neighbours.

What unique cultural identity do you and I (or if you feel that I'm painting myself as an outlier, your alleged Catholic neighbours) actually share, considering your openly hibernophobic stance? What do we share that can be totally detached and unique from Irishness or Britishness?

That totally makes sense to me.
Can see how you'd identify in the way you do.

I'm coming from the other side. Zero knowledge of Irish language or GAA for example. I'd identity much more strongly towards British...language, sports, historical knowledge, arts, extended family, holiday travel, work, TV, etc. Call it NI British if you prefer.

At the end of the day there's no definition for either term.
The two terms certainly have an uneasy relationship... on here anyway.
What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way is, I believe an NI unionist feels very different to an NI nationalist and ROI Irish in regards to their irishness or definition of irishness.
Call it all Irish if you want, but it's a very different meaning for us all I think.