How long before Irish reunification?

Paul_Crosby

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

That totally makes sense to me.
Can see how you'd identify in the way you do.

I'm coming from the other side. Zero knowledge of Irish language or GAA for example. I'd identity much more strongly towards British...language, sports, historical knowledge, arts, extended family, holiday travel, work, TV, etc. Call it NI British if you prefer.

At the end of the day there's no definition for either term.
The two terms certainly have an uneasy relationship... on here anyway.
What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way is, I believe an NI unionist feels very different to an NI nationalist and ROI Irish in regards to their irishness or definition of irishness.
Call it all Irish if you want, but it's a very different meaning for us all I think.

Like most places across the world, the people in charge benefit greatly by keeping the lower classes in fear of "the other" and at eachothers throats while they reap the benefits, members of the Glenanne Gang admitted that Special Branch wanted them to shoot up a Catholic primary school to try and provoke all out civil war, but the UVF refused to do it

Sinbad_NI

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Like most places across the world, the people in charge benefit greatly by keeping the lower classes in fear of "the other" and at eachothers throats while they reap the benefits, members of the Glenanne Gang admitted that Special Branch wanted them to shoot up a Catholic primary school to try and provoke all out civil war, but the UVF refused to do it

I never mentioned fear. I've no fear of anyone, whatever their beliefs.
Was just trying to offer some insight from the"other" side.

In no way do I consider those in power as the better class than myself. In fact the total and complete opposite.
Jesus we've the biggest shower of monkeys, religious clowns, terrorists and the rest in charge up here.

Paul_Crosby

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I never mentioned fear. I've no fear of anyone, whatever their beliefs.
Was just trying to offer some insight from the"other" side.

In no way do I consider those in power as the better class than myself. In fact the total and complete opposite.
Jesus we've the biggest shower of monkeys, religious clowns, terrorists and the rest in charge up here.

I know you didn't, my point these arguments over "culture" is nothing but a canard, while we argue over the difference in "culture" we are all getting shat on from a great height while we wave our tricolours and union jacks

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

That totally makes sense to me.
Can see how you'd identify in the way you do.

I'm coming from the other side. Zero knowledge of Irish language or GAA for example. I'd identity much more strongly towards British...language, sports, historical knowledge, arts, extended family, holiday travel, work, TV, etc. Call it NI British if you prefer.

At the end of the day there's no definition for either term.
The two terms certainly have an uneasy relationship... on here anyway.
What I'm trying to say, in a roundabout way is, I believe an NI unionist feels very different to an NI nationalist and ROI Irish in regards to their irishness or definition of irishness.
Call it all Irish if you want, but it's a very different meaning for us all I think.

I don't disagree with you at all, Sinbad.

My point was a reply to Downcow's suggestion that there was some unique, distinct Northern Irish culture, whereas I don't think there's much substance to that. We have a shared history, but I have more in common culturally with the people of Ireland (the state, not the island) than I do with you, and I'm sure the same applies to you and the people of Britain. We aren't alien cultures, and there's massive overlap, as there is culturally between a man from Cork and one from Manchester.

I don't call it all Irish, nor do I believe your Britishness undermines my Irishness - again, part of the beauty of the GFA when not approached in a triumphalist, 'we win, haha' manner like Downcow.

Sinbad_NI

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you at all, Sinbad.

My point was a reply to Downcow's suggestion that there was some unique, distinct Northern Irish culture, whereas I don't think there's much substance to that. We have a shared history, but I have more in common culturally with the people of Ireland (the state, not the island) than I do with you, and I'm sure the same applies to you and the people of Britain. We aren't alien cultures, and there's massive overlap, as there is culturally between a man from Cork and one from Manchester.

I don't call it all Irish, nor do I believe your Britishness undermines my Irishness - again, part of the beauty of the GFA when not approached in a triumphalist, 'we win, haha' manner like Downcow.

Aye, can't argue with you there. Well said.

Happened to catch a random documentary about a far eastern country earlier. Now that's a different culture and way of life.
Just shows how hugely similar and shared all of European culture is. Each one has a small amount of tweaking around the mean of course, but by and large hugely hugely similar.

Nothing to be fearful of in our differences. In fact far from it.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Aye, can't argue with you there. Well said.

Happened to catch a random documentary about a far eastern country earlier. Now that's a different culture and way of life.
Just shows how hugely similar and shared all of European culture is. Each one has a small amount of tweaking around the mean of course, but by and large hugely hugely similar.

Nothing to be fearful of in our differences. In fact far from it.

Except keeping the toaster in a drawer or cupboard. Your lot are mad for that and it terrifies me!

Sinbad_NI

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Except keeping the toaster in a drawer or cupboard. Your lot are mad for that and it terrifies me!

That's a new one to me. In fact I've never heard of that at all. Very strange I agree.

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Nothing to be fearful of in our differences. In fact far from it.

Totally agree with this. As long as there is mutual respect and an abscence of intimidation and hate...nobody is bothered who expresses themselves or how.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Could you feck up providing evidence of an 'increasingly common' use of a term used in the 'nationalist community' anymore?

A BELFAST TELEGRAPH journalist now is proof? Really?

Firstly, you will find he is not a journalist but rather a strong nationalist sports personality.

This is another of your silly circles. You ask for evidence, I give you evidence, you say 'ah but', i give you more evidence, you say 'ah but', etc etc etc.

What would you regard as effective evidence on this one Francie?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All of the above tooing and froing as you desparately try to cover your gaff doesn't get away from your use of statements along the lines of 'If you think 1 million Unionists are going to tolerate the end of OUR country' either.

You see NI as 'YOURS' and nobody elses. That is the bottom line here downcow. Time and again you have inferred it, and it matches the behaviour of belligerent NEVER NEVER Unionism. Fact.

where did i say the above Francie??????

.....my mum had a great wee saying 'as you live yourself, you dread your neighbour'. I have always found it to be very true. Modern term my be 'projecting your stuff unto others'.

When I talk about 'our' country, I mean everyone who buys into NI

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Firstly, you will find he is not a journalist but rather a strong nationalist sports personality.

This is another of your silly circles. You ask for evidence, I give you evidence, you say 'ah but', i give you more evidence, you say 'ah but', etc etc etc.

What would you regard as effective evidence on this one Francie?

One person is not proof of an 'increasingly common' use of the phrase among Nationalists downcow.
Like defining a 'strong NI culture and identity' you have failed to back it up again and want to play silly games where you pretend I said something I didn't say.

Whenever you feel like dealing with 'if you think 1 million Unionists are going to accept losing OUR country', feel free as well. All ears and eyes here.

*You claimed Rory McIllroy as a nationalist earlier too (just because he is a Catholic no doubt) when there isn't a shred of evidence that he is one, so I will take your identifying people with a pinch of salt until I know better too.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but you don't. I have a lot more in common with my neighbours here than I did with hardline Loyalists when I lived back home. Despite your repeated attempts to pose as a moderate, you're not.

I love my GAA and Irish music, I identify strongly with the rich tapestry of literature and art throughout Irish history, despite being a pretty poor speaker of it myself, I like the Irish language. From small things like understanding the place names all across the island, to trying to have a broken conversation on the Aran Islands. These things are my culture, these things are the culture of your Nationalist neighbours.

What unique cultural identity do you and I (or if you feel that I'm painting myself as an outlier, your alleged Catholic neighbours) actually share, considering your openly hibernophobic stance? What do we share that can be totally detached and unique from Irishness or Britishness?

One of my very very closest friends, a very deep genuine friendship, who I would trust with my life, is a strong republican, past Irish dance champion, past GAA club secretary, victim of UVF terrorism, and wee have lots in common. Its sad that you seem unable to have real friendships across the communities here

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

When the loyalists marched down the Lower Ormeau Road and the nationalist people were beaten off the streets to let them past, the marchers held up 5 fingers and shouted "5 nil" in reference to the Sean Graham bookmakers massacre where 5 innocent people were murdered.

The nationalists fought back and injured some police officers, when this was brought to court the police didnt know that someone was videotaping the whole thing (this was the 90s and not many people had video cameras then) and caught the RUC smashing innocent people with batons, including hitting a man over the head who was simply trying to calm the situation down, he was knocked unconscious and dragged away as his blood ran through the street, the judge threw the case out and others were given claims.

There is a thread of truth running through what you say, but wildly exaggerated and overly graphic.
It was wrong though, but lets not start listing all the wrongs done to communities here - we know where that goes

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Like most places across the world, the people in charge benefit greatly by keeping the lower classes in fear of "the other" and at eachothers throats while they reap the benefits, members of the Glenanne Gang admitted that Special Branch wanted them to shoot up a Catholic primary school to try and provoke all out civil war, but the UVF refused to do it

oh dear, oh dear!

con___manx1

10-15 years

kneemos wrote: »

A Scottish/NI union back in the EU is more likely.

Ireland doesn't want the North anyway.

all the bloodshed and history says otherwise. Ireland wants it more than the uk that's for sure. the unionists are realising how little the uk actually give a **** after the Brexit debacle.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you at all, Sinbad.

My point was a reply to Downcow's suggestion that there was some unique, distinct Northern Irish culture, whereas I don't think there's much substance to that. We have a shared history, but I have more in common culturally with the people of Ireland (the state, not the island) than I do with you, and I'm sure the same applies to you and the people of Britain. We aren't alien cultures, and there's massive overlap, as there is culturally between a man from Cork and one from Manchester.

I don't call it all Irish, nor do I believe your Britishness undermines my Irishness - again, part of the beauty of the GFA when not approached in a triumphalist, 'we win, haha' manner like Downcow.

Here is exactly the reason i have not rushed to describing my culture. Look at the spin put on this and he's an amateur compared to Francie.
NI culture is no more or less unique or distinct than Irish, English, Scottish, etc culture. And when did I ever suggest it was unique and distinct?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

One person is not proof of an 'increasingly common' use of the phrase among Nationalists downcow.
Like defining a 'strong NI culture and identity' you have failed to back it up again and want to play silly games where you pretend I said something I didn't say.

Whenever you feel like dealing with 'if you think 1 million Unionists are going to accept losing OUR country', feel free as well. All ears and eyes here.

*You claimed Rory McIllroy as a nationalist earlier too (just because he is a Catholic no doubt) when there isn't a shred of evidence that he is one, so I will take your identifying people with a pinch of salt until I know better too.

Francie. I am not the reporting type, but I am pissed off with you continual misquoting of me. When did i say either of the two claims above? and you are an expert at finding old [posts, so share them with us all

eire4

downcow wrote: »

Here is what you said eire4. I hope when you reread it you are embarrassed at you sectarian, bigoted, analysis of your neighbours. I wouldn’t dare say such stuff about my southern friends.

“.....When I hear someone talking about the strong Unionist/N.Ireland culture I agree with them there is one. IMHO what they say is a euphemism for a protestant parliament for a protestant people, July 12th bonfires and marching etc which ultimately are all about triumphalism and the domination of one group over another. It is about longing for a return to that and a fear of becoming a minority in a country and within a culture they have repressed/discriminated against for so long that they fear there will be turn around on them. There won't but the fear they have is very real because they know what they did.”

Pretty nasty stuff!

You know I do enjoy reading your posts so full of projection and trolling that they are. Good entertainment always and another great effort from you there.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I am not the reporting type, but I am pissed off with you continual misquoting of me. When did i say either of the two claims above? and you are an expert at finding old [posts, so share them with us all

You were asked to provide evidence for your statement that 'our wee country' was a phrase that was 'increasingly common among Nationalists' and you used Rory McIllroy.

What were we supposed to think?

And you let the mask slip because you are routinely unaware of what you are saying. Here you are claiming 'the wee country' for Unionists...

downcow wrote:

Some of you think it is an panacea and I am just letting you know that you will have somewhere between 0.5-1million people who will detest losing their country and will be exploring every possibility to get their country back

Again...what else were we to think of that statement?

Jaysus, own what you say for once.

eire4

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Except keeping the toaster in a drawer or cupboard. Your lot are mad for that and it terrifies me!

Ooops I have to admit I do just that:)

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

One of my very very closest friends, a very deep genuine friendship, who I would trust with my life, is a strong republican, past Irish dance champion, past GAA club secretary, victim of UVF terrorism, and wee have lots in common. Its sad that you seem unable to have real friendships across the communities here

I have lots of deep and genuine friendships with people of wildly varying cultures, Downcow. Our cultural differences don't impede that in any way, in fact they add a great deal of richness to it. A very close friend of mine from my University days is Russian, his culture is far more different than yours is from a Irish culture, and mine is from a British culture.

You seem to be under the impression that my pointing out that we are culturally different is somehow ascribing lesser value to one or the other. It isn't

downcow wrote: »

Here is exactly the reason i have not rushed to describing my culture. Look at the spin put on this and he's an amateur compared to Francie.
NI culture is no more or less unique or distinct than Irish, English, Scottish, etc culture. And when did I ever suggest it was unique and distinct?

I'm not getting into your silly b*ggers game of, 'I didn't use that exact phrasing so I'm being oppressed' nonsense again, Downcow. You complain about spin being put on describing YOUR culture?! I'm from the North, if there was a Northern Irish culture, it would be OUR culture, not YOURS.

If NI culture was no more or less unique and distinct than Irish, English, Scottish etc culture, then it would be unique and distinct. Irish, English and Scottish cultures ARE unique and distinct. They certainly have overlaps and similarities, given their shared history, but they also have things which stand out as distinctly "___ish", which are recognised across the world as a unique part of the cultural makeup of that country.

That isn't the case with, 'Northern Irish' culture, firstly because at worst, it is two totally separate, non-unique cultures or at best, a mixing pot of those two cultures rather that something different itself.

Another Unionist (SinbadNI) on this thread agreed with me that he would have more in common with an average British person than an average Nationalist from the North - I just don't see what culture you and I share in common any more than the general cultural overlap I would have with any other British person.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

eire4 wrote: »

Ooops I have to admit I do just that:)

Well well well.....must be a bit of Protestant in the aul bloodline somewhere! We'll be getting the ruler out to check the space between the eyes next!

Quick fire test! Bundoran or Newcastle?!?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I have lots of deep and genuine friendships with people of wildly varying cultures, Downcow. Our cultural differences don't impede that in any way, in fact they add a great deal of richness to it. A very close friend of mine from my University days is Russian, his culture is far more different than yours is from a Irish culture, and mine is from a British culture.

You seem to be under the impression that my pointing out that we are culturally different is somehow ascribing lesser value to one or the other. It isn't



I'm not getting into your silly b*ggers game of, 'I didn't use that exact phrasing so I'm being oppressed' nonsense again, Downcow. You complain about spin being put on describing YOUR culture?! I'm from the North, if there was a Northern Irish culture, it would be OUR culture, not YOURS.

If NI culture was no more or less unique and distinct than Irish, English, Scottish etc culture, then it would be unique and distinct. Irish, English and Scottish cultures ARE unique and distinct. They certainly have overlaps and similarities, given their shared history, but they also have things which stand out as distinctly "___ish", which are recognised across the world as a unique part of the cultural makeup of that country.

That isn't the case with, 'Northern Irish' culture, firstly because at worst, it is two totally separate, non-unique cultures or at best, a mixing pot of those two cultures rather that something different itself.

Another Unionist (SinbadNI) on this thread agreed with me that he would have more in common with an average British person than an average Nationalist from the North - I just don't see what culture you and I share in common any more than the general cultural overlap I would have with any other British person.

Which is exactly why he was never going to be able to define a 'strong NI culture and identity' and hasn't done. He has had to set up games with me and victim-hood with you to mask his inability to do it.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I have lots of deep and genuine friendships with people of wildly varying cultures, Downcow. Our cultural differences don't impede that in any way, in fact they add a great deal of richness to it. A very close friend of mine from my University days is Russian, his culture is far more different than yours is from a Irish culture, and mine is from a British culture.

You seem to be under the impression that my pointing out that we are culturally different is somehow ascribing lesser value to one or the other. It isn't



I'm not getting into your silly b*ggers game of, 'I didn't use that exact phrasing so I'm being oppressed' nonsense again, Downcow. You complain about spin being put on describing YOUR culture?! I'm from the North, if there was a Northern Irish culture, it would be OUR culture, not YOURS.

If NI culture was no more or less unique and distinct than Irish, English, Scottish etc culture, then it would be unique and distinct. Irish, English and Scottish cultures ARE unique and distinct. They certainly have overlaps and similarities, given their shared history, but they also have things which stand out as distinctly "___ish", which are recognised across the world as a unique part of the cultural makeup of that country.

That isn't the case with, 'Northern Irish' culture, firstly because at worst, it is two totally separate, non-unique cultures or at best, a mixing pot of those two cultures rather that something different itself.

Another Unionist (SinbadNI) on this thread agreed with me that he would have more in common with an average British person than an average Nationalist from the North - I just don't see what culture you and I share in common any more than the general cultural overlap I would have with any other British person.

apologies,
maybe i jumped the gun there. I will take what you are saying a face value and accept that you were not changing what i said to set up an impossible ask.

eire4

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Well well well.....must be a bit of Protestant in the aul bloodline somewhere! We'll be getting the ruler out to check the space between the eyes next!



Quick fire test! Bundoran or Newcastle?!?

Hahah as it happens I actually lived just outside Ballyshannon for a couple of years when I was a young lad. So for sure Bundoran:)

Sinbad_NI

eire4 wrote: »

Hahah as it happens I actually lived just outside Ballyshannon for a couple of years when I was a young lad. So for sure Bundoran:)

And I didn't set foot in Newcastle until I was about 30!
Jesus this isn't good ;-)

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

apologies,
maybe i jumped the gun there. I will take what you are saying a face value and accept that you were not changing what i said to set up an impossible ask.

Not setting anything up, Downcow, I'm genuinely curious as to what you see as uniquely Northern Irish culture. I wasn't being facetious or insulting when I said I find that culturally I have more in common with the missus' family from Meath and Mayo than I do with an average NI Unionist, it was in no way an insult towards that culture, just a statement that if there was a distinct NI culture, that wouldn't be the case.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

And I didn't set foot in Newcastle until I was about 30!
Jesus this isn't good ;-)

This is definitely a weird swapped at birth thing.

Final test, what do you both think of ABBA?

downcow

So I did promise I would come back on why I thought Northern Ireland had a specific culture/identity.
Firstly, of course as many have pointed out, every culture is a blend of all sorts of identities and cultures and Ireland, England and Scotland no doubt play a strong part in forming ours.
Culture is subtle, which is probably why most posters on here have run a mile from trying to describe Irish culture. So here goes.

Language - everyone who visits me from any English-speaking countries remark on our vocabulary. This includes friends from ROI. A few examples are the constant use of the word ‘wee’. I am sure if you have been here and e.g. went into a restaurant you’ve been asked to ‘take a wee seat’, ‘here’s a wee menu’, ‘would you like a wee drink’ ..and after you have eaten, ‘would you put your wee card in the wee machine and put your wee number in’.
We are always getting ourselves into a ‘situation’, and I don’t know down in ROI if you would, coup a cow late at night. And if you were told, your wean is a quare lad, would you be happy?
Of course I could go on and on with words many of them linked to Ulster scots, but used by nationalists and unionists alike in Northern Ireland.

Food - I was down in the Republic recently with a bus load of Northern Ireland people and we were baffled to find out, after leaving the pub, that no chippy done a gravy chip. Maybe the locals were winding us up, but they said they had never heard of the like, and as for a half-and-half, no chance. In fact they even had another name for the chippy, i cant remember, was it the chippers?
The Ulster fry, in my view is far superior to any fry available anywhere else in these islands, and quite different. It is a constant disappointment for me, when I get a fry set in front of me in either England or ROI - actually an English and ROI fry are far more alike

Music - this does split a little bit across the communities, and of course the whole marching band scene is quite unique to Northern Ireland - in the style that we do it. Both communities have it but I accept it is much stronger in the unionist community. For many young people growing up they have the same aspiration to join their local marching band as young Americans would have to join their baseball team. We also clearly have the Irish music scene, and I have no idea if it is the same across all the island, but I do understand that we have our own form of Irish language in the North - not sure if that is correct?

People from Northern Ireland also clearly have the shared history of living through a conflict and divided society. Something which I think both communities here understand, and are marked by, in a very different way than Britain or ROI.

Sadly we also have that inbuilt ability to work out which community someone comes from.
I’m not sure whether Northern Ireland is the only place in these two islands were people young and old alike, need to think about what clothes they are wearing in relation to where they are going, so as not to wind up, or maybe purposely to wind up, other members of the community.
And also the awareness that because we are a certain religion then there are many places we cannot go safely - thats something fairly unique i would think

I have concentrated on some examples of shared culture/identity, but of course the two communities here share something else, and that is that we also have our own distinct identity stuff within our communities, I often hear ROI people talking about northerners in a way to emphasise their difference from the rest of Ireland, irrelevant of community background.

I think it was evident during removal of the British forces stuff from the GAA that our wee country was very different from the rest of Ireland. And with regard to specific unionist identity we have lots of stuff people in ROI don’t get, and massively misunderstand.

I don’t want to write an essay here, all I am doing is meeting a request to backup a simple statement I made that Northern Ireland has a strong identity/culture.

Hope that helps

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

You also get scotch eggs in the chipper in the north but not in the south. The Ulster Fry (without doubt the finest breakfast fry in the world) isn't really a NI thing but an Ulster thing, in fact nearly everything you've written about spills over the border, even the unionist stuff to a lesser degree.