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How long before Irish reunification?
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You won't get people straddling the border because the border between Switzerland and Germany is Lake Constance and the upper regions of the Rhine.
Most borders are based on the natural topography of the landscape - i.e., rivers, lakes, mountains.
The border between NI & ROI is just a random line on a map.
Completely random. It cut farms in half, as well as settlements. I could take you to a house 5 minutes away where the front door is in the south and the back one is in the north. And it was there at partition.
It's isn't hard to spot an apologist for partition when they start pointing at examples like Switzerland and Germany.0 -
20-30 yearsFrancieBrady wrote: »Completely random. It cut farms in half, as well as settlements. I could take you to a house 5 minutes away where the front door is in the south and the back one is in the north. And it was there at partition.
It's isn't hard to spot an apologist for partition when they start pointing at examples like Switzerland and Germany.
Clonagore/Cloncorick Road?
We should send them up to Kilroosky/Burdautien to show them the insanity there as well.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »It had a Protestant president, has many many protestants happily playing it at all levels.
Another argument running out of rope.munsterlegend wrote: »Nothing stopping anyone playing gaa. Catholic Protestant Muslims or agnostic. Nobody cares. The OO is just a breeding ground to maintain the sectarian past but I am encouraged it’s membership is dwindling.
Let me just check if I have I got this correct.
I’m assuming you wouldn’t support any NI team of any sport that plays GSTQ as the anthem. Hopefully I’m not stretching on this.
But you don’t see any issue at all with Amhran na bhFiann being played at GAA matches in NI?
This is from a few years back now.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/it-s-time-for-the-gaa-to-forget-this-national-anthem-business-1.27959300 -
Let me just check if I have I got this correct.
I’m assuming you wouldn’t support any NI team of any sport that plays GSTQ as the anthem. Hopefully I’m not stretching on this.
But you don’t see any issue at all with Amhran na bhFiann being played at GAA matches in NI?
This is from a few years back now.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/it-s-time-for-the-gaa-to-forget-this-national-anthem-business-1.2795930
I won't support any team that displays a bigoted attitude. Anthems and flags don't mean a whole pile to me unless somebody is using them to taunt.
I supported NI up until the Billy Bingham era mask slip. Very hard to even look at them after that tbh.
Whatever work that is being done is to be welcomed but they have a way to go in NI soccer generally. They should take a long hard look at rugby, which confronted and largely solved any issues.0 -
It is amazing to me that people think partition made sense.
In the post World War I elections, the population of the Island of Ireland was roughly 75% Nationalist and 25% Unionist.
So the brilliant solution of the Brits was to create a new state on the Island in which the religious divide was 67% Unionist and 33% Nationalist, but surrounded by a majority Nationalist Country and the sea. So in other words a state with an even larger minority than that already contained on the whole Island.
In what shape or form is that logical?
But then nobody ever said the British government made logical decisions. It was they who promised the Arabs their own state covering all of the middle East during WW1, whilst behind their backs promising the Zionist's a new state in Palestine:eek: Pretty much every problem that now exists in the middle east today can be traced back to British and French imperialism and double dealing. It truly boggles the mind that the Brits knew the consequences of creating Israel, but then simply walked away and the fighting has been going on since. In fact so many places that were part of the empire are the same.
Let's not forget as well that Home Rule meant Ireland staying within the Union, but what group was totally against Home Rule, yep the Unionists. To me the main pillar of Unionism has never been as much about British identity as it has been about hatred of Catholics. They would not even contemplate sharing limited self-government with Catholics even within the Union, which they now have to do in NI.
The irony being that so many of Irelands National heros in the 18th/19th century were in fact Protestant. Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken, Robert Emmett, John Mitchell, Thomas Davis, William Smith O'Brien, Isaac Butt, Charles Stewart Parnell.
What did they believe in? They believed in a shared Ireland in which all Protestants and Catholics were equal and self governing to varying degrees of independence from Britain. They were mostly inspired by the ideas of the American War of Independence and French revolution. Liberty. Equality. Fraternity.
The Tricolour was brought back from France by the Young Irelanders who were a mixed Catholic/Protestant group and the flag was based on the concept of a shared country between Catholics and Protestants, hence the colours.
Funny thing is, if Home Rule had been introduced in 1913, there is every chance Ireland may have been still part of the UK now. Instead the reaction of the Unionists arming themselves to start a revolution against a democratic process of their own Government pushed the Irish reaction to the more Republican viewpoint.
What should have happened instead of partition IMO, what should the British Government should have done for the Unionists. If they didn't want to live under a democratically elected Irish Government, they should have been offered the chance to be repatriated to Britain. It would probably have worked out a lot cheaper for the British Government than the long term cost of Northern Ireland and a lot less hassle as well.0 -
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BonnieSituation wrote: »Clonagore/Cloncorick Road?
We should send them up to Kilroosky/Burdautien to show them the insanity there as well.
I think a lot who comment on this are totally unaware of places like those.0 -
20-30 yearsFrancieBrady wrote: »I think a lot who comment on this are totally unaware of places like those.
Thankfully there's the rest of us here who know them only too well!0 -
There’s some pretty mixed up borders around the world... do you think there’s something unique about this one?
Many split properties for example, enclaves within enclaves etc. Politics and wars have left a mess the world over.0 -
20-30 yearsThere’s some pretty mixed up borders around the world... do you think there’s something unique about this one?
Many split properties for example, enclaves within enclaves etc. Politics and wars have left a mess the world over.
Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog for one.
Then there's the likes of Campione d'Italia and Busingen. And not to mention the mess of enclaves in India/Bangladesh or even Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Difference there though, is they're not on my island and don't divide Irish people. So no, they're not the same.0 -
There’s some pretty mixed up borders around the world... do you think there’s something unique about this one?
Many split properties for example, enclaves within enclaves etc. Politics and wars have left a mess the world over.
And politics has fixed messes all over the world and through time as well.
We won't give up..this one can be fixed as well and it is the one that is important here...because it is HERE. No amount of pointing elsewhere gets you away from that.0 -
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munsterlegend wrote: »Nothing stopping anyone playing gaa. Catholic Protestant Muslims or agnostic. Nobody cares. The OO is just a breeding ground to maintain the sectarian past but I am encouraged it’s membership is dwindling.
Your doing it again. I thought for a minute you were talking about the GAA crowds which are on a worrying decline.
Let me encourage you by pointing out the loyalist band scene is on the rise as it excites young people where old men in suits don't0 -
30-40 yearsI'm confident that the republic will vote against a United Ireland for financial and security reasons.
You will be a separatist then and aligning yourself with the likes of Downcow and the DUP. Good luck with that, if you think that won't have massive political ramifications in the south then you haven't given much thought the upheaval it would cause.Hamsterchops wrote: »I suppose I'm playing devils advocate here
Those Unionists shoes you slip into seem to be such a good fit. Something isn't quite right.0 -
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Fr D Maugire wrote: »It is amazing to me that people think partition made sense.
In the post World War I elections, the population of the Island of Ireland was roughly 75% Nationalist and 25% Unionist.
So the brilliant solution of the Brits was to create a new state on the Island in which the religious divide was 67% Unionist and 33% Nationalist, but surrounded by a majority Nationalist Country and the sea. So in other words a state with an even larger minority than that already contained on the whole Island.
In what shape or form is that logical?
But then nobody ever said the British government made logical decisions. It was they who promised the Arabs their own state covering all of the middle East during WW1, whilst behind their backs promising the Zionist's a new state in Palestine:eek: Pretty much every problem that now exists in the middle east today can be traced back to British and French imperialism and double dealing. It truly boggles the mind that the Brits knew the consequences of creating Israel, but then simply walked away and the fighting has been going on since. In fact so many places that were part of the empire are the same.
Let's not forget as well that Home Rule meant Ireland staying within the Union, but what group was totally against Home Rule, yep the Unionists. To me the main pillar of Unionism has never been as much about British identity as it has been about hatred of Catholics. They would not even contemplate sharing limited self-government with Catholics even within the Union, which they now have to do in NI.
The irony being that so many of Irelands National heros in the 18th/19th century were in fact Protestant. Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken, Robert Emmett, John Mitchell, Thomas Davis, William Smith O'Brien, Isaac Butt, Charles Stewart Parnell.
What did they believe in? They believed in a shared Ireland in which all Protestants and Catholics were equal and self governing to varying degrees of independence from Britain. They were mostly inspired by the ideas of the American War of Independence and French revolution. Liberty. Equality. Fraternity.
The Tricolour was brought back from France by the Young Irelanders who were a mixed Catholic/Protestant group and the flag was based on the concept of a shared country between Catholics and Protestants, hence the colours.
Funny thing is, if Home Rule had been introduced in 1913, there is every chance Ireland may have been still part of the UK now. Instead the reaction of the Unionists arming themselves to start a revolution against a democratic process of their own Government pushed the Irish reaction to the more Republican viewpoint.
What should have happened instead of partition IMO, what should the British Government should have done for the Unionists. If they didn't want to live under a democratically elected Irish Government, they should have been offered the chance to be repatriated to Britain. It would probably have worked out a lot cheaper for the British Government than the long term cost of Northern Ireland and a lot less hassle as well.
All you are really pointing out is that products always had that individualism and were allowed to think outside the box. Some could support a united Ireland and some could support remaining in the UK. The Catholics of the time though and much more monolithic block following their church leaders.
Thankfully the Northern Ireland Catholics think much more of themselves now that they have got the IRA of their back. They are pretty much split down the middle now on who wants a united and who wants to stay in the UK. Ironically now Protestants are fairly much the mind that they want to stay in the UK0 -
Junkyard Tom wrote: »The COVID19 hospital death figures in the north are close to twice those of the south. Only for SF and Dublin those numbers might have been worse, I'm sure you'll agree.
Or is the clip I linked you to a SF/ITV conspiracy to make Unionists/Britain look bad?
I never did get the open but I am sure it is wonderful.
The main objective setting out on Covid 19 (certainly for the UK anyway) was not about measuring itself against other countries who are very different, it was about ensuring there was not a surge that overwhelmed the NHS. Thankfully so far the NHS has handled this very well with loads of empty beds still available.
I have said often on this thread that we will not know for at least five years, who got this right. I may reduce that now to about two years. You are still not prepared to recognise any benefit in herd immunity. But do you at least accept that the current pattern means that the UK is ahead of Ireland on herd immunity.
It will be interesting to see how the second, third, fourth, fifth, waves strike.0 -
Ulster Says No. It will never happen
Therw was never a United Ireland so not I'm not a separatist.Junkyard Tom wrote:You will be a separatist then and aligning yourself with the likes of Downcow and the DUP. Good luck with that, if you think that won't have massive political ramifications in the south then you haven't given much thought the upheaval it would cause.
You can call me that if you want though, really don't mind what I'm called.
I think trying to put the two Ireland's together will cause major problems both financially and from a security perspective.
The financial aspect concerns me greatly. These security aspect is another huge concern. We could have the troubles down south.
I see loads on here talking about 100 years ago and now want to do the very same thing to hundreds of thousands of people born in Northern Ireland who like being under UK rule.0 -
All you are really pointing out is that products always had that individualism and were allowed to think outside the box. Some could support a united Ireland and some could support remaining in the UK. The Catholics of the time though and much more monolithic block following their church leaders.
Thankfully the Northern Ireland Catholics think much more of themselves now that they have got the IRA of their back. They are pretty much split down the middle now on who wants a united and who wants to stay in the UK. Ironically now Protestants are fairly much the mind that they want to stay in the UK
I guess they were thinking outside the box when they introduced the penal laws to persecute Catholics and Presbyterians alike. I would imagine Catholics were more angry at being persecuted and being made second class citizens by the minority than anything their church leaders might have tried to teach them.
Also Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. This is what Unionists stood against, the very qualities that are so revered all around the World these days. Not wanted in Protestant Ireland. Democracy, nope, not wanted in Protestant Ireland, thus why they wanted to rebel against the government of the Country they swear allegiance to.0 -
30-40 yearsI never did get the open but I am sure it is wonderful.
NI rate of hospital deaths is nearly twice that of the south. You don't want to hear it because all your life you believed the Mexicans south of the border were inferior to the chosen people in the north. It's too painful for you to admit that SF were right and that Dublin is doing a better job than London.But do you at least accept that the current pattern means that the UK is ahead of Ireland on herd immunity.
It will be interesting to see how the second, third, fourth, fifth, waves strike.
There's no evidence that getting infected once provides long-term immunity. You're desperately scrabbling in the dirt for a 'win' and it is pathetic.
For what it's worth I think we could have handled it better here - I think having lower numbers than Britain isn't good enough and we should be comparing ourselves with other EU countries that aren't governed by morons like the UK is.0 -
30-40 yearsI think trying to put the two Ireland's together will cause major problems both financially and from a security perspective.
You'll learn, one way or another, that there isn't 'two Irelands'. There are those of us who want to put a historical wrong right, the partition of the nation, and those of us who want to stop it - you want to stop it - own that and stand with Unionists because that's how it breaks down.0 -
Therw was never a United Ireland so not I'm not a separatist.
You can call me that if you want though, really don't mind what I'm called.
I think trying to put the two Ireland's together will cause major problems both financially and from a security perspective.
The financial aspect concerns me greatly. These security aspect is another huge concern. We could have the troubles down south.
I see loads on here talking about 100 years ago and now want to do the very same thing to hundreds of thousands of people born in Northern Ireland who like being under UK rule.
No, that is where you are wrong. I personally don't think NI should be forced to rejoin the Republic against it's will. I think it will happen eventually, but is far down the road. First and foremost I would like to see peace and normality in NI, unfortunately I think Brexit will set that back quite a bit. I am not a Republican or not even a very strong Nationalist.
That doesn't mean we cannot look at history and say that partition was illogical as was Israel as I mentioned or look at why there is such divisions. You can say Ireland was never united, but people lived on an island with a single, culture and language. Chances are left unmolested by outsiders, a Nation would have developed at some point. Realistically the British never completed the job they started as they needed to wipe out the entire culture to do what they wished.
As I pointed out before, Ireland as a country had a 75% Nationalist population who wanted to leave Britain. Do you think partition was the correct decision? And by that I don't mean the decision of Collins, Griffith etc in Downing St. I mean as a logical solution put forward by the British government.0 -
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Ulster Says No. It will never happen
I don't care who you decide I'm standing with.Junkyard Tom wrote:You'll learn, one way or another, that there isn't 'two Irelands'. There are those of us who want to put a historical wrong right, the partition of the nation, and those of us who want to stop it - you want to stop it - own that and stand with Unionists because that's how it breaks down.
There are two Ireland's, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
You say what happened 100 or so years ago was wrong. How do you think it's right now? Have you learned nothing from history?0 -
Junkyard Tom wrote: »NI rate of hospital deaths is nearly twice that of the south. You don't want to hear it because all your life you believed the Mexicans south of the border were inferior to the chosen people in the north. It's too painful for you to admit that SF were right and that Dublin is doing a better job than London.
There's no evidence that getting infected once provides long-term immunity. Your desperately scrabbling in the dirt for a 'win' and it is pathetic.
For what it's worth I think we could have handled it better here - I think having lower numbers than Britain isn't good enough and we should be comparing ourselves with other EU countries that aren't governed by morons like the UK is.
Sadly that is a scary but correct point when you point out that having antibodies because someone had the disease does not mean they are safe from being infected again. The WHO confirmed as such the other day and warned against countries assuming that was the case and issuing people with some kind of paper that they have antibodies and thus immunity because there is no evidence that they are immune from being re-infected.
As things stand in Ireland while unquestionably mistakes have been made we thankfully have not had to suffer from the kind of idiocy seen in London. Currently the UK death rate is almost 100 higher then Ireland per million of population and the testing gap is about 15,000 per million of population. So while I am not very happy with how Ireland has handled some things thankfully at least we are not in the same position as the UK thanks to the decisions from London.0 -
30-40 yearsI don't care who you decide I'm standing with.
I don't know what country you thought you were living in but this one was built on the foundations of a 32 county Ireland. If you want permanent separation then stop using the Flag, change the constitution, don't use the name Ireland, disown our history, reject the vision of our founders, and come up with a vision for the new state you want to form.There are two Ireland's, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Partition was a temporary 'solution'. This United Ireland thing is never going away - it's in the bone marrow of the nation.You say what happened 100 or so years ago was wrong. How do you think it's right now?
Time doesn't make a wrong right.Have you learned nothing from history?
It patently obvious to me that it is you who has learned nothing if you think this issue will go away.0 -
Junkyard Tom wrote: »NI rate of hospital deaths is nearly twice that of the south. You don't want to hear it because all your life you believed the Mexicans south of the border were inferior to the chosen people in the north. It's too painful for you to admit that SF were right and that Dublin is doing a better job than London.
There's no evidence that getting infected once provides long-term immunity. You're desperately scrabbling in the dirt for a 'win' and it is pathetic.
For what it's worth I think we could have handled it better here - I think having lower numbers than Britain isn't good enough and we should be comparing ourselves with other EU countries that aren't governed by morons like the UK is.
Here is the bottom line. I am generally happy with how my government has dealt with Covid and you sound reasonably happy about how your government has dealt with it. It doesn't really matter what I think of yours and what you think my0 -
Junkyard Tom wrote: »You'll learn, one way or another, that there isn't 'two Irelands'. There are those of us who want to put a historical wrong right, the partition of the nation, and those of us who want to stop it - you want to stop it - own that and stand with Unionists because that's how it breaks down.
Here's the thing. You need to stop harking back 100 years. You can put right whatever it is you think you need to put right. If that was the case we would start another war here to right the wrongs of the recent conflict.
You need to accept we are where we are. Two countries, many different peoples and aspirations, and we need to move forward from here. At the minute all the evidence suggests you have an incredible uphill task to unite this island which no one has managed in the last 1000 years (except the Brits)0 -
Fr D Maugire wrote: »No, that is where you are wrong. I personally don't think NI should be forced to rejoin the Republic against it's will. I think it will happen eventually, but is far down the road. First and foremost I would like to see peace and normality in NI, unfortunately I think Brexit will set that back quite a bit. I am not a Republican or not even a very strong Nationalist.
That doesn't mean we cannot look at history and say that partition was illogical as was Israel as I mentioned or look at why there is such divisions. You can say Ireland was never united, but people lived on an island with a single, culture and language. Chances are left unmolested by outsiders, a Nation would have developed at some point. Realistically the British never completed the job they started as they needed to wipe out the entire culture to do what they wished.
As I pointed out before, Ireland as a country had a 75% Nationalist population who wanted to leave Britain. Do you think partition was the correct decision? And by that I don't mean the decision of Collins, Griffith etc in Downing St. I mean as a logical solution put forward by the British government.
From I am looking at was very logical. You had 1 million people who had incredible fear of 4 million who would have been out to get them. This is 100 years ago. Law and order was very different. There would have been a total bloodbath if you had tried to put 1 million fairly well armed Protestants under the rule of a church from state that hated them.
So no it was not perfect, but what would you have done?0 -
Ulster Says No. It will never happen
When were we a 32 county independent country?Junkyard Tom wrote:I don't know what country you thought you were living in but this one was built on the foundations of a 32 county Ireland. If you want permanent separation then stop using the Flag, change the constitution, don't use the name Ireland, disown our history, reject the vision of our founders, and come up with a vision for the new state you want to form.
It's something that nationalists and IRA murderers believe in. I've spent a lot of time up near the border due to family where they called Protestant people blacks.Junkyard Tom wrote:Partition was a temporary 'solution'. This United Ireland thing is never going away - it's in the bone marrow of the nation.
I've nothing but distain for anybody who would look.om others as beneath them. The UK looked as Catholics as beneath them in northern Ireland, we all know that.
Right now we live in an age where we listen to everyone's view and try and accommodate everybody as best we can.
There are hundreds of thousands of people in northern Ireland who don't want to live under the government of the Republic of Ireland.
The best solution is an independent northern Ireland if there is going to be a change.
I don't disagree that it was wrong at the time. You don't fix it by wronging hundreds of thousands of people now. You are just like the Brits of 100 years ago if you think it's ok to go against the wishes of hundreds of thousands of people.Junkyard Tom wrote:Time doesn't make a wrong right.
I don't think it'll go away. It's far too early for a United Ireland though. We need many generations before it's a possibility though.Junkyard Tom wrote:It patently obvious to me that it is you who has learned nothing if you think this issue will go away.0 -
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30-40 yearsIf that was the case we would start another war here
What exactly would Unionists hope to achieve if they started shooting old men in pubs again? Unionists are a minority in the north, a minority in Belfast, a minority in Derry, and a minority in four of the six counties. Do you think they could get an army together and ethnically cleanse the six counties of Nationalists/Catholics?
The very best you could hope for is to have a devolved-from-Dublin parliament in Stormont and retention of the PSNI which I wouldn't be against.0 -
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