How long before Irish reunification?

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

All the people? You have totally ignored the aspirations and expectations of a considerable amount of people so that you can maintain personal financial security and contentment.

I haven't ignored anybody. I just keep reminding you of the hundreds of thousands that you show no concern for, whose opinions you want to ignore. Using the word democracy for a situation which any person with a bit of cop on knows is far beyond the reaches of democracy.
I've told you the truth about the GFA which is that most people were for it based on the short term approach of ending the troubles. It was either agree to it or go back to the troubles.

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

I haven't ignored anybody. I just keep reminding you of the hundreds of thousands that you show no concern for, whose opinions you want to ignore. Using the word democracy for a situation which any person with a bit of cop on knows is far beyond the reaches of democracy.

You are totally ignoring the GFA if you oppose a border poll. Fact, it is part and parcel of that agreement.
I have concerns for everyone in this, I want to see an inclusive island that represents everybody.
That is easier to do than trying to keep people suppressed. 'Far beyond the reaches of democracy' ??? What does that even mean?

I've told you the truth about the GFA which is that most people were for it based on the short term approach of ending the troubles. It was either agree to it or go back to the troubles.

the arrogance to think that just because you didn't read the thing properly that 'most' people did the same. You couldn't invent it!

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You assume that I voted for the GFA. I didn't. Never said I did either.

Off you go then and find political representation of your anti GFA stance then. You'll be looking towards belligerent 'I can't guarantee to be peaceful' Unionism or dissidents currently. unless you fancy setting up a new party. Maybe Gemma O'Doherty? Peter Casey?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

There are hundreds of thousands of people born, bred and living in Northern Ireland who have lived their whole lives under British rule are are happy with that. Do you not think their voice is hugely important in this?
If they don't want to be a part of a United Ireland what is your answer to that?

They get to vote for or against a UI in a referendum.

Likewise, there are hundreds of thousands of people born, bred and living in Northern Ireland who have lived their whole lives under British rule are are UNHAPPY with that. Do you not think their voice is hugely important in this?

NO?

munsterlegend

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They get to vote for or against a UI in a referendum.

Likewise, there are hundreds of thousands of people born, bred and living in Northern Ireland who have lived their whole lives under British rule are are UNHAPPY with that. Do you not think their voice is hugely important in this?

NO?

They don’t count as Unionists might not be happy.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

jm08 wrote: »

Too young?

He's a kiwi so probably wasn't living here in 98.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You assume that I voted for the GFA. I didn't. Never said I did either.

You said you were "pro-GFA" or words to that effect.

You're either for it all or none of it. You cannot cherry pick I'm afraid.

A vote in future for a UI in both jurisdictions is a consequence of the GFA.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

munsterlegend wrote: »

They don’t count as Unionists might not be happy.

It's amazing how Northern Nationalists don't exist in these arguments unless it comes to polls that are pro-UK.

Fascinating stuff alright.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

Likewise, there are hundreds of thousands of people born, bred and living in Northern Ireland who have lived their whole lives under British rule are are UNHAPPY with that. Do you not think their voice is hugely important in this?

Yes, both voices are hugely important and it's why a UI is not the answer. Staying under British rule isn't the answer either. An independent Northern Ireland might be something both sides can accept.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes, both voices are hugely important and it's why a UI is not the answer. Staying under British rule isn't the answer either. An introduction independent Northern Ireland might be something both sides can accept.

We'll pretend your pie in the sky option is an option, so tell me why a Nationalist would vote for that and not for a UI?

Why would they agree to be further divided from their nation and natural hinterlands?

Thankfully it's not an option under the GFA. So thankfully won't be happening.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

Why would they agree to be further divided from their nation and natural hinterlands?

How would they be further divided. They'd be part of the EU if they wanted to, no border. Basically like any state in the US.
Any option has to be all-inclusive, not just favouring a very small majority.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

How would they be further divided. They'd be part of the EU if they wanted to, no border. Basically like any state in the US.
Any option has to be all-inclusive, not just favouring a very small majority.

All inclusive?

So you think a referendum on unity after 100 years of the existence of the Statelet isn't all inclusive?

maccored

30-40 years

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes, both voices are hugely important and it's why a UI is not the answer. Staying under British rule isn't the answer either. An independent Northern Ireland might be something both sides can accept.

and how could that possibly work out? How could six counties finance themselves independently? The place was designed to depend on the british government.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

So you think a referendum on unity after 100 years of the existence of the Statelet isn't all inclusive?

As I said many times that referendum was, in the minds of most people, the opportunity to end the troubles. They voted to end the troubles first and foremost, anything else they were signing up for was because there was a proverbial gun to their heads as in don't vote for it and the troubles start again.

jm08

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

I haven't ignored anybody. I just keep reminding you of the hundreds of thousands that you show no concern for, whose opinions you want to ignore. Using the word democracy for a situation which any person with a bit of cop on knows is far beyond the reaches of democracy.


I've told you the truth about the GFA which is that most people were for it based on the short term approach of ending the troubles. It was either agree to it or go back to the troubles.

Most people's short and long term's aim was to end the conflict and it looked to be going well for a while, but Brexit blew the whole thing up again.

FrancieBrady

maccored wrote: »

and how could that possibly work out? How could six counties finance themselves independently? The place was designed to depend on the british government.

It requires an international agreement between two sovereign governments to function as is and didn't stabilise to almost peaceful until our government got a say.
Now he/she wants them to be cast adrift to fend for themselves?

maccored

30-40 years

eagle eye wrote: »

As I said many times that referendum was, in the minds of most people, the opportunity to end the troubles. They voted to end the troubles first and foremost, anything else they were signing up for was because there was a proverbial gun to their heads as in don't vote for it and the troubles start again.

who told you that? did you forget the all important 'imo'?

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

As I said many times that referendum was, in the minds of most people, the opportunity to end the troubles. They voted to end the troubles first and foremost, anything else they were signing up for was because there was a proverbial gun to their heads as in don't vote for it and the troubles start again.

Again, this is pure arrogance to assume. You have zilch to back that statement(cover for your own mistake, no doubt) up.

ELM327

15-20 years

NI is not viable on its own. Currently it is propped up by the EU and the british.
Therefore there are only 2 options, remain as is, or unity of our island.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

As I said many times that referendum was, in the minds of most people, the opportunity to end the troubles. They voted to end the troubles first and foremost, anything else they were signing up for was because there was a proverbial gun to their heads as in don't vote for it and the troubles start again.

So you're saying people didn't know what they voted for?

Is there a chance that you didn't know what you were voting for? Or were you still in the States at that stage?

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Off you go then and find political representation of your anti GFA stance then. You'll be looking towards belligerent 'I can't guarantee to be peaceful' Unionism or dissidents currently. unless you fancy setting up a new party. Maybe Gemma O'Doherty? Peter Casey?

I'm not anti-GFA. Never said I was. I think it was a good thing. And if I had lived in Ireland at the time, I would have voted for it. Why? It brought an end to a murderous terror campaign. I think thats a good thing. Voting on a united Ireland? I don't believe that either country is ready or mature enough for that yet. There are still too many around who would see it as an excuse to use violence and there are far too many who would be willing to excuse and apoligise for those terrorists.

You appear desperate to paint everything as black and white. It appears that your bigotry and your biases means that if someone disagrees with you over anything then they are against everything you support. The reality is far more complex, no matter what Mary Lou and the Shinners say.

I live in Ireland. I have family in Ireland. My number 1 priority in all this is a safe and peaceful island. Next, is a prosperous and economically strong island. A united Ireland?? I couldn't give a toss if every county became a separate country as long as those two priorities were met.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

maccored wrote:

and how could that possibly work out? How could six counties finance themselves independently? The place was designed to depend on the british government.

How do Iceland, Cyprus, Montenegro and Luxembourg support themselves?

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm not anti-GFA. Never said I was. I think it was a good thing. And if I had lived in Ireland at the time, I would have voted for it. Why? It brought an end to a murderous terror campaign. I think thats a good thing. Voting on a united Ireland? I don't believe that either country is ready or mature enough for that yet. There are still too many around who would see it as an excuse to use violence and there are far too many who would be willing to excuse and apoligise for those terrorists.

You appear desperate to paint everything as black and white. It appears that your bigotry and your biases means that if someone disagrees with you over anything then they are against everything you support. The reality is far more complex, no matter what Mary Lou and the Shinners say.

I live in Ireland. I have family in Ireland. My number 1 priority in all this is a safe and peaceful island. Next, is a prosperous and economically strong island. A united Ireland?? I couldn't give a toss if every county became a separate country as long as those two priorities were met.

Explain then, why you think the GFA brought an end to the conflict?

What was in the GFA that saw ceasefires and an acceptance of the agreement?

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

Is there a chance that you didn't know what you were voting for? Or were you still in the States at that stage?

I didn't vote. I was living in the US at the time.

maccored

30-40 years

eagle eye wrote: »

How do Iceland, Cyprus, Montenegro and Luxembourg support themselves?

comparing northern ireland to cyprus? yeah - the north has loads of sun and tourist potential alright. jaysus ... nevermind not having the fishing and natural resources of iceland. Use google. Luxembourg is rich with strong industries (something else the north doesnt have)

jm08

20-30 years

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm not anti-GFA. Never said I was. I think it was a good thing. And if I had lived in Ireland at the time, I would have voted for it. Why? It brought an end to a murderous terror campaign. I think thats a good thing. Voting on a united Ireland? I don't believe that either country is ready or mature enough for that yet. There are still too many around who would see it as an excuse to use violence and there are far too many who would be willing to excuse and apoligise for those terrorists.

You appear desperate to paint everything as black and white. It appears that your bigotry and your biases means that if someone disagrees with you over anything then they are against everything you support. The reality is far more complex, no matter what Mary Lou and the Shinners say.

I live in Ireland. I have family in Ireland. My number 1 priority in all this is a safe and peaceful island. Next, is a prosperous and economically strong island. A united Ireland?? I couldn't give a toss if every county became a separate country as long as those two priorities were met.

I'd say that you have a very limited understanding of what happened in the troubles and how catholics/nationalists were treated in the Northern Ireland state.

Unionists have a huge difficulty with accepting pariety of esteem which is one of the main pillars of the GFA. Natonalists accepted the GFA because they were given the hope that they could have a vote on a UI.

And some people want to deny them that? Its only a vote, not a UI. The democratic wish of the people will be accepted.

Yeah_Right

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You said you were "pro-GFA" or words to that effect.

You're either for it all or none of it. You cannot cherry pick I'm afraid.

A vote in future for a UI in both jurisdictions is a consequence of the GFA.

You are right, I am a kiwi and in 1998 I was in university in NZ. I had actually studied Irish history for a semester in high school so I was very interested in the GFA and what it would mean.

I honestly don't understand why it has to be so either this or that. Why can't I support the majority of the GFA but disagree with some parts? Why does the fact I think that this island isn't ready for a UI vote yet suddenly mean that I am against the entire GFA?

Hamsterchops

So if there is ever a so called "border poll" and it comes up short, will there be another in quick succession? Or maybe the best of three?

I think the Republican/Nationalist side would have to be certain that they'd win convincingly, otherwise a finely balanced vote (like Brexit) would make more problems & cause a lot of headaches for a very long time to come, with an angry hard-line Loyalist demographic wedded to (an histiric version of the Crown), wedded to King Billy & the Orange Order, wedded to Scotland & wedded to anarchy if needs be!

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you're saying people didn't know what they voted for?

Is there a chance that you didn't know what you were voting for? Or were you still in the States at that stage?

eagle eye wrote: »

I didn't vote. I was living in the US at the time.

What about the first part of the question?

jm08

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So if there is ever a so called "border poll" and it comes up short, will there be another in quick succession? Or maybe the best of three?

I think the Republican/Nationalist side would have to be certain that they'd win convincingly, otherwise a finely balanced vote (like Brexit) would make more problems & cause a lot of headaches for a very long time to come, with an angry hard-line Loyalist demographic wedded to (an histiric version of the Crown), wedded to King Billy & the Orange Order, wedded to Scotland & wedded to anarchy if needs be!

There can be a vote every 7 years.



The issue with polls/surveys in NI, is that people are suspicious of them and who conducts them. People are going to be reticent when asked these questions in NI bearing in mind the history of the place. The only honest answer will be under the privacy of the ballot box.