How long before Irish reunification?

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet another who wants to slither out of something they clearly said and then try and characterise another poster as 'intentionally misquoting them. Don't say stuff like this if you mean the opposite.







Completely disingenuous and dishonest posting there.

Why do you do this? I really don't understand your mentality. You put up a quote and then "this is what you said!! Gotcha!! Own it! Own it!!" And you completely ignore any subsequent posts that clarify or explain what the poster meant. Its very immature and tiresome and doesn't encourage discussion. Then again I suspect that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You especially don't want to hear a dissenting opinion. All you want is for everyone to agree "Brits bad. Shinners good."

Tell me, do you think if there was a border poll that we would see an increase in dissident activity? From either side.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I mean't to come back and correct that actually but forgot. Also unsubstantiated doesn't mean 'false'. The closest way of comparing rates of mortality will probably be excess deaths and even that will be contentious.

Excess deaths sort of reduces the suffering of those who die from CV19 (and their loved-ones) to a number so seems inhumane too.

Whatever happens I think the rate of deaths in care homes will be equally terrible all round and that is a failure to protect the vulnerable which we should be ashamed of.

Put the flags out! I agree 100% with something Junkyard has said

downcow

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why do you do this? I really don't understand your mentality. You put up a quote and then "this is what you said!! Gotcha!! Own it! Own it!!" And you completely ignore any subsequent posts that clarify or explain what the poster meant. Its very immature and tiresome and doesn't encourage discussion. Then again I suspect that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You especially don't want to hear a dissenting opinion. All you want is for everyone to agree "Brits bad. Shinners good."

Nail on head! Great summary

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why do you do this? I really don't understand your mentality. You put up a quote and then "this is what you said!! Gotcha!! Own it! Own it!!" And you completely ignore any subsequent posts that clarify or explain what the poster meant. Its very immature and tiresome and doesn't encourage discussion. Then again I suspect that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You especially don't want to hear a dissenting opinion. All you want is for everyone to agree "Brits bad. Shinners good."

I debate 'dissenting' opinion by making a argument. If I make a claim I back it up. downcow decided to put me on ignore because claims he was making were not backed up by any facts or data so he withdrew rather than withdraw the claims. Yet I get called 'childish' and a 'liar'.

I accept that anyone can modify and clarify...but you and eagle eye were painting me and actually calling me a 'liar' for saying that you said it. Which is totally a lie in itself.
Don't be making sly digs about (sorry to quote your actual words AGAIN as proof here)

And it's one that you and Francie keep missing. Probably intentionally in his case.

TWICE you dismissed the GFA and what was agreed in it before you clarified with the words 'yet'.

Tell me, do you think if there was a border poll that we would see an increase in dissident activity? From either side.

I think the dissidents are being well watched at the moment because their active numbers are quite small.


So no, I would expect the dissidents to be corralled mostly for the first border poll. I would also expect the more violent belligerent Unionists to be well corralled too but there is I suspect elements in the security forces still who may wish to destabilise and collude as they did when progress was being attempted before.

blinding

10-15 years

Does downcow not like it here in Ireland ? = Land of the Irish

Maybe if you have not assimilated by now, Ireland is not the place for ya ! !

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I debate 'dissenting' opinion by making a argument. If I make a claim I back it up. downcow decided to put me on ignore because claims he was making were not backed up by any facts or data so he withdrew rather than withdraw the claims. Yet I get called 'childish' and a 'liar'.

I accept that anyone can modify and clarify...but you and eagle eye were painting me and actually calling me a 'liar' for saying that you said it. Which is totally a lie in itself.
Don't be making sly digs about (sorry to quote your actual words AGAIN as proof here)

And it's one that you and Francie keep missing. Probably intentionally in his case.

TWICE you dismissed the GFA and what was agreed in it before you clarified with the words 'yet'.

In the second post I made commenting on a border poll or the GFA, I clarified my position saying something like "at the moment" or "in the future". I'm pretty sure it was in the same post that you snipped one of those quotes where I said that I didn't want a border poll. Yet you ignored that.

When I said I didn't vote for the GFA, you jumped on saying I was anti-GFA and I supported that raving lunatic Gemma O'Doherty. Seriously man, get a grip. Not once did it cross your mind that I might have been too young to vote for it or that I might not have been eligible too vote for it.

I'm not your enemy. I live in Ireland and I want it to be peaceful and prosperous for everyone. And I am not willing to sacrifice that or have people die so that you can have a united Ireland. To me it just isn't worth it. Maybe that does make me your enemy.

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In the second post I made commenting on a border poll or the GFA, I clarified my position saying something like "at the moment" or "in the future". I'm pretty sure it was in the same post that you snipped one of those quotes where I said that I didn't want a border poll. Yet you ignored that.

Sorry, I have to object to you rewriting stuff that has been said. Here is the post in it's entirity from which the quote was 'snipped'. Not a single mention of 'yet' or 'maybe in the future' or anything else but a cold hard statement of your position.

Yeah_Right wrote:

Trust me, I've been reading this whole thread. I agree with Eagle Eye. I don't want a border poll or a UI. For the same reasons as him/her. The economy; I pay enough tax as it is, I don't want to have to pay more to cover NI. Security; there are far too many murderous psychopaths (on both sides) who would love nothing more than having the excuse of fighting for their freedom/culture so that they can kill people and blow places up.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=113316814

You are expecting people to read your mind and what you really intended to say and throwing the toys outta the pram when they don't.

When I said I didn't vote for the GFA, you jumped on saying I was anti-GFA and I supported that raving lunatic Gemma O'Doherty. Seriously man, get a grip. Not once did it cross your mind that I might have been too young to vote for it or that I might not have been eligible too vote for it.

I didn't say you 'supported Gemma O'Doherty'...that is an actual lie.
I asked you a question which you didn't answer. 'Where are you going to find political representation for the view you had expressed - maintaining partition/ignoring the the GFA.
I named a number of examples.
I have expressed the opinion that a 'partitionist' view is an outlier view and will not find political party representation.

I'm not your enemy. I live in Ireland and I want it to be peaceful and prosperous for everyone. And I am not willing to sacrifice that or have people die so that you can have a united Ireland. To me it just isn't worth it. Maybe that does make me your enemy.

Which again ignores the fact that Ireland isn't 'peaceful and prosperous' for everyone.
Look at dissident activity and to Jamie etc activities and the 'peace' can be seen as very fragile. Look at the lengths we went to over Brexit to ensure there was no return of a 'hard border' if you doubt that.

Hamsterchops

jm08 wrote: »

Neither countries will be ready for a border poll unless there is some preparation done for it.

Well depending on which way it goes, I mean if the majority vote to stay in the UK (no change), then there's no preparation to be done . . .

jm08 wrote: »

The DUP block everything with Petitions of Concern etc. and show nothing but contempt for nationalists and theiir culture - i.e., the withdrawal of the 50,000 Liofa Grant and their attitude to the Irish language.

Well I would say that neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein have helped matters, SF closed down the Assembly for three years in the presumption that thei 1st minister was guilty of misconduct, only to find out three years later that she wasn't!

As regards the Irish language I agree with you, and if there a large cohort of the population that wish to use Irish as their 1st language then why should the DUP stand in their way?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well depending on which way it goes, I mean if the majority vote to stay in the UK (no change), then there's no preparation to be done . . .



Well I would say that neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein have helped matters, SF closed down the Assembly for three years in the presumption that thei 1st minister was guilty of misconduct, only to find out three years later that she wasn't!

They should have just presumed she had no case to answer and moved on, I presume?

As regards the Irish language I agree with you, and if there a large cohort of the population that wish to use Irish as their 1st language then why should the DUP stand in their way?

Which completely misrepresents what the Irish Language Act was about. Dis-ingenuous debating...yet again.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They should have just presumed she had no case to answer and moved on, I presume?

Which completely misrepresents what the Irish Language Act was about. Dis-ingenuous debating...yet again.

I think you just want me to fall into line and condemn the DUP while praising Sinn Fein, but I don't work like that, I saw fault in both. As regard being dis-inguous, well I did say that the DUP were at fault there, so please take that in board as criticism of them and their blockage to the Irish language act.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think you just want me to fall into line and condemn the DUP while praising Sinn Fein, but I don't work like that, I saw fault in both. As regard being dis-inguous, well I did say that the DUP were at fault there, so please take that in board as criticism of them and their blockage to the Irish language act.

You haven't answered whether SF should have presumed her innocence.

And you completely misrepresented what the Irish Language Act was needed for. It WAS NOT anything to do with those who wished 'to use it as a 1st language'.

Dis-ingenuity of the highest order, whether you criticise the DUP or not.

munsterlegend

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think you just want me to fall into line and condemn the DUP while praising Sinn Fein, but I don't work like that, I saw fault in both. As regard being dis-inguous, well I did say that the DUP were at fault there, so please take that in board as criticism of them and their blockage to the Irish language act.

Did you read Martin McGuinness’s letter to end power-sharing? Nationalists were sick and tired of the continued denigration of anything Irish by the dup. The Dup hate power sharing and still do. It was never the plan that this sectarian statelet would ever be anything but ruled by unionists. The language used such as crocodiles. Stopping Irish language grants the list goes on and on.

Hamsterchops

Re the Irish language act, I did say .....

Then who are the DUP to stand in their way (in implementing the act), maybe my wording was ham fisted, but I was trying to be critical of the DUP and their intransigence, what more can I say.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Re the Irish language act, I did say .....

Then who are the DUP to stand in their way (in implementing the act), maybe my wording was ham fisted, but I was trying to be critical of the DUP and their intransigence, what more can I say.

Fair enough. Portraying the Irish Language Act as something that was principally for people who used it as their 1st language would be totally wrong.

downcow

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well depending on which way it goes, I mean if the majority vote to stay in the UK (no change), then there's no preparation to be done . . .



Well I would say that neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein have helped matters, SF closed down the Assembly for three years in the presumption that thei 1st minister was guilty of misconduct, only to find out three years later that she wasn't!

As regards the Irish language I agree with you, and if there a large cohort of the population that wish to use Irish as their 1st language then why should the DUP stand in their way?

That’s making an assumption that it’s only the big bad dup opposed to Irish language act. Every unionist party currently opposes it because of how it is being used. Including the moderate uup and the party that has some Irish speakers the pup

downcow

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think you just want me to fall into line and condemn the DUP while praising Sinn Fein, but I don't work like that, I saw fault in both. As regard being dis-inguous, well I did say that the DUP were at fault there, so please take that in board as criticism of them and their blockage to the Irish language act.

You are doing it again. I am a very moderate unionist and I wholeheartedly oppose an Irish language act (at this time)

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Did you read Martin McGuinness’s letter to end power-sharing? Nationalists were sick and tired of the continued denigration of anything Irish by the dup. The Dup hate power sharing and still do. It was never the plan that this sectarian statelet would ever be anything but ruled by unionists. The language used such as crocodiles. Stopping Irish language grants the list goes on and on.

Some of what you say is valid. But this was happening while Gerry Adams was referring to us as ‘those bastàrds’ and telling us he would use the Trojan horse of equality to break us.
A lot of fault on both sides. Why I have no tine for either of those two parties

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Some of what you say is valid. But this was happening while Gerry Adams was referring to us as ‘those bastàrds’ and telling us he would use the Trojan horse of equality to break us.
A lot of fault on both sides. Why I have no tine for either of those two parties

Again you misrepresent what was said, this time by a politician. To aid in your victimhood narrative, you assume he was referring to you. If you are a 'bigot' then he most certainly was referring to you.

Here is what he actually said:

“There is bigotry in some sections of Unionism. But what’s the point? The point is to actually break these bastards - that’s the point.

And what’s going to break them is equality. That’s what’s going to break them - equality. Who could be afraid of equality? Who could be afraid of treating somebody the way you want to be treated. That’s what we need to keep the focus on and that’s the trojan horse of the entire republican strategy...”

Many would say he was right.
Unionism has had to concede on 'equal' rights for LGBTQ people and for the Irish Language.

The bigots are well and truly broken as a force...see Parades, see Flegs, see the marching of ten thousand to the top of the hill over the Irish Sea border...and nothing.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Apologies. Genuine mistake by me. I meant to type that catholics had the same opportunity to VOTE as Protestants. I clearly accept that catholics were deprived of opportunities to work in ni up to 70s

Wait? What?

Hamsterchops

Question; Is "Brits Out" still a thing?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Now don’t be at that old one again that catholics didn’t get voting until 1970s. Can you show me somewhere where catholics were specifically deprived from voting? Yes of course there was gerrymandering and the majority tried to set things up in their favour but working class Protestants suffered the exact same voting issues as catholics, and middle class catholics had exactly the same benefits voting as middle class Protestants.
At least that is my understanding even though many like to claim catholics didn’t have a vote.
If I am wrong then I will have learnt something today.

....and of course it’s great to ignore the big employers like beleek pottery who wouldn’t have a prod about the place

You "whatabout" so hard and so often that you must give yourself whiplash.

How are you not in traction?

blinding

10-15 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Question; Is "Brits Out" still a thing?

If they’d be happier on the Big Island, why would you deprive them of that happiness ? ?

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well depending on which way it goes, I mean if the majority vote to stay in the UK (no change), then there's no preparation to be done . . .



Well I would say that neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein have helped matters, SF closed down the Assembly for three years in the presumption that thei 1st minister was guilty of misconduct, only to find out three years later that she wasn't!

As regards the Irish language I agree with you, and if there a large cohort of the population that wish to use Irish as their 1st language then why should the DUP stand in their way?

It was SFs fault eh?

You seem to forget about the deal that was agreed only for the Westminster DUP to scupper it at the last moment. Either that or you didn't know and it didn't suit your agenda anyway.

Amazing how the DUP had no issue with Peter Robinson stepping down as FM for an investigation a while back.

Paul_Crosby

downcow wrote: »

So what did Willie do that David Irvine did not. Help me work that one out.
And when compared to your leaders who covered up child abuse and rape I think both willie and david look fairly ordinary

Adams isn't my leader mate I can't stand the man

Irvine aknowledged his past, meanwhile Willies history speaks for itself, the man defended collusion until the day he died for gods sake, Willie never mentioned the fact that he provided weapons to loyalists until it was exposed after he died, you posted an article from last weeks Sunday World, that same edition featured the first part of what will be an ongoing feature on Johnny Adairs right hand man Top Gun McKeague, I wonder how many people he killed with weapons they obtained from your mate Willie, who was Adairs point of contact with the Ulster Resistance who provided his unit with weapons?

Not everybody who joined the paramilitaries or carried out acts of violence were inherently evil people, like I said this isn't whataboutery, the IRA also carried out horrific acts that I would never defend in a million years, it's important for people to reconcile these facts.

If Willie had actually faced up to any of this it would be one thing, but he kept that very quiet and his views were incredibly extreme until the day he died, like mentioned before his defence of state collusion

Also gonna have to call you on your assertion that loyalists spraying up bars in nationalist areas were making them turn on the PIRA, that just wasn't the case, how would blatantly sectarian gun attacks on nationalist bars and the like make people sympathise less with the IRA? It emboldened them, you're also talking as if these loyalist attacks were purely reactionary to the IRA which is just not the case at all

jm08

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well depending on which way it goes, I mean if the majority vote to stay in the UK (no change), then there's no preparation to be done . . .

Thats not how you run a referendum unless you want to end up with a Brexit like mess. Fortunately, we have a lot of experience on this island running referenda.

Well I would say that neither the DUP nor Sinn Fein have helped matters, SF closed down the Assembly for three years in the presumption that thei 1st minister was guilty of misconduct, only to find out three years later that she wasn't!

In the period between 2011 and 2016, the DUP blocked 86 pieces of legislation with a Petition of Concern in Stormont compared to Sinn Fein's 29.


Arlene Foster refused to step aside while the investigation was going on - that is why they pulled the plug. As soon as the investigation was over, they reached agreement on going back in, except the Orange Order pulled the plug on it. It looked to me like the DUP didn't want to go back to Stormont when they were pulling the strings of the Tory party in Westminister. It was also an opportunity to get some legislation through (Same Sex Marriage/Abortion) without the DUP using the PoC to block it. Its rather interesting that the Labour MP, Conor McGinn who proposed the Same Sex Marriage Legislation in Westminister comes from Armagh and his father was/is a Sinn Fein Councillor.

As regards the Irish language I agree with you, and if there a large cohort of the population that wish to use Irish as their 1st language then why should the DUP stand in their way?

Well, they do stand in their way and have refused to accept it even though it is agreed in the GFA. I think the DUP's execuse is that they never agreed to the GFA in the first place!

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

You are doing it again. I am a very moderate unionist and I wholeheartedly oppose an Irish language act (at this time)

No you're not.


What's so wrong about the language act that you "wholeheartedly oppose"?

Hamsterchops

blinding wrote: »

If they’d be happier on the Big Island, why would you deprive them of that happiness ? ?

Well ok, but ther emust be nearly a million of them up North, hence my question which I thought had been abandoned in recent years? Obviously not

Paul_Crosby

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well ok, but ther emust be nearly a million of them up North, hence my question which I thought had been abandoned in recent years? Obviously not

Well it depends what you mean by is it still a thing, during the troubles "Brits Out" was directed in the, main at least, at the army seen as the occupying force, rather than the general protestant population.

Of course you'll still get ignorant sectarian eejits writing things like "Kill all Taigs" and "Kill all Huns" and that type of caper

munsterlegend

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It was SFs fault eh?

You seem to forget about the deal that was agreed only for the Westminster DUP to scupper it at the last moment. Either that or you didn't know and it didn't suit your agenda anyway.

Amazing how the DUP had no issue with Peter Robinson stepping down as FM for an investigation a while back.

He claims to be impartial but has very selective memory.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

Some of what you say is valid. But this was happening while Gerry Adams was referring to us as ‘those bastàrds’ and telling us he would use the Trojan horse of equality to break us.
A lot of fault on both sides. Why I have no tine for either of those two parties

Can you clarify what you believe is valid? Unionist hate sharing power with nationalists?