How long before Irish reunification?

cgcsb

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

You are doing it again. I am a very moderate unionist and I wholeheartedly oppose an Irish language act (at this time)

I'm not sure how much more extreme you could possibly go before you leave the moderate camp and go into the extreme camp?

If you define being a moderate as being as anti-Irish as the geneva convention permits, I'm afraid that's not 'moderate' by any standard in any part of the western world. That's outright hostility.

Paul_Crosby

munsterlegend wrote: »

He claims to be impartial but has very selective memory.

Incredibly selective

blinding

10-15 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well ok, but ther emust be nearly a million of them up North, hence my question which I thought had been abandoned in recent years? Obviously not

If they do not accept the Democratic decision for Unity, North and South then they may have to fulfil their ambitions on the Big Island.

Yeah_Right

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, I have to object to you rewriting stuff that has been said. Here is the post in it's entirity from which the quote was 'snipped'. Not a single mention of 'yet' or 'maybe in the future' or anything else but a cold hard statement of your position.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=113316814

You are expecting people to read your mind and what you really intended to say and throwing the toys outta the pram when they don't.

I didn't say you 'supported Gemma O'Doherty'...that is an actual lie.
I asked you a question which you didn't answer. 'Where are you going to find political representation for the view you had expressed - maintaining partition/ignoring the the GFA.
I named a number of examples.
I have expressed the opinion that a 'partitionist' view is an outlier view and will not find political party representation.


Which again ignores the fact that Ireland isn't 'peaceful and prosperous' for everyone.
Look at dissident activity and to Jamie etc activities and the 'peace' can be seen as very fragile. Look at the lengths we went to over Brexit to ensure there was no return of a 'hard border' if you doubt that.

Oh Francie. Your rage is blinding you. I clarified my position on the border poll in my next post and several ones since. But you don't want to see that do you? You want your "Gotcha!! Own it!!" moment.

No, you didn't say I supported Gemma O'Doherty. You just suggested I should. I mean its obvious from my posts that I am a bigotted, racist, anti-vax nutjob just like her :rolleyes:

I don't believe that there is a political party in the republic that would publicly oppose a united Ireland or a border poll. However I think when the cost to the taxpayer of a united Ireland becomes apparent, a lot voters will turn away from it. Most Irish people probably want a united Ireland but they wouldn't be willing to have their wages taxed any more to pay for it. Except for your party of course. You guys want a UI and damn the cost or the consequences. Shake the magic money tree!!!

FrancieBrady

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Oh Francie. Your rage is blinding you. I clarified my position on the border poll in my next post and several ones since. But you don't want to see that do you? You want your "Gotcha!! Own it!!" moment.

No, you didn't say I supported Gemma O'Doherty. You just suggested I should. I mean its obvious from my posts that I am a bigotted, racist, anti-vax nutjob just like her :rolleyes:

I don't believe that there is a political party in the republic that would publicly oppose a united Ireland or a border poll. However I think when the cost to the taxpayer of a united Ireland becomes apparent, a lot voters will turn away from it. Most Irish people probably want a united Ireland but they wouldn't be willing to have their wages taxed any more to pay for it. Except for your party of course. You guys want a UI and damn the cost or the consequences. Shake the magic money tree!!!

You can try to erase that post all you want. It is there in b/w.

I have no rage whatsoever. The people bandying about 'liar' when their posts contradict them are the angry rage filled ones.

As previously stated, I suggested a few examples of 'outlier' political figures. I have no idea what they believe about a UI so I wasnt suggesting you should support them rather that you would have to find an 'outlier'.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Oh Francie. Your rage is blinding you. I clarified my position on the border poll in my next post and several ones since. But you don't want to see that do you? You want your "Gotcha!! Own it!!" moment.

No, you didn't say I supported Gemma O'Doherty. You just suggested I should. I mean its obvious from my posts that I am a bigotted, racist, anti-vax nutjob just like her :rolleyes:

I don't believe that there is a political party in the republic that would publicly oppose a united Ireland or a border poll. However I think when the cost to the taxpayer of a united Ireland becomes apparent, a lot voters will turn away from it. Most Irish people probably want a united Ireland but they wouldn't be willing to have their wages taxed any more to pay for it. Except for your party of course. You guys want a UI and damn the cost or the consequences. Shake the magic money tree!!!

What cost is this then?

If people want to vote against a UI on the basis of its "cost", then that is valid, but it would be incumbent on those in favour of a UI and indeed the government to show how much it WILL "cost" and not the mad pie in the sky numbers bandied about by your typical Partitionist.

To talk about a UI like it's some sort of zero-sum transaction is to completely miss the "cost" of not actually doing it.

Not to mention the untold and currently intangible benefits of doing same.

A UI is a massive INVESTMENT in the future of this island. That can never be understated.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

A UI is a massive INVESTMENT in the future of this island. That can never be understated.

How is it a massive investment in the future if the island?
How do we know that the population won't change back to a bigger unionist population at some stage in the future?
In this UI are you putting an option in for Northern Ireland to leave it should the majority want to?

Dyr

jm08 wrote: »

This is a quote from an essay by Michael Lillis, who was Head of the Irish delegation for the Anglo-Irish Agreement. The ''he'' referred to here is Garret FitzGerald, who was the Taoiseach then.



https://www.drb.ie/essays/the-good-statesman

Incidentally, Michael Lillis was interviewed on the ''Irishman Abroad'' podcast, where he gives a lot of background colour of his time in the Dept. of Foreign Affairs which was prior to his aviation career.

https://soundcloud.com/an-irishman-abroad/michael-lillis-episode-339

Fitzgerald wasnt Taoiseach in that time period. It would be either Cosgrave or Lynch.

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Adams isn't my leader mate I can't stand the man

Irvine aknowledged his past, meanwhile Willies history speaks for itself, the man defended collusion until the day he died for gods sake, Willie never mentioned the fact that he provided weapons to loyalists until it was exposed after he died, you posted an article from last weeks Sunday World, that same edition featured the first part of what will be an ongoing feature on Johnny Adairs right hand man Top Gun McKeague, I wonder how many people he killed with weapons they obtained from your mate Willie, who was Adairs point of contact with the Ulster Resistance who provided his unit with weapons?

Not everybody who joined the paramilitaries or carried out acts of violence were inherently evil people, like I said this isn't whataboutery, the IRA also carried out horrific acts that I would never defend in a million years, it's important for people to reconcile these facts.

If Willie had actually faced up to any of this it would be one thing, but he kept that very quiet and his views were incredibly extreme until the day he died, like mentioned before his defence of state collusion

Also gonna have to call you on your assertion that loyalists spraying up bars in nationalist areas were making them turn on the PIRA, that just wasn't the case, how would blatantly sectarian gun attacks on nationalist bars and the like make people sympathise less with the IRA? It emboldened them, you're also talking as if these loyalist attacks were purely reactionary to the IRA which is just not the case at all

For goodness sake. Adams hasn’t even admitted yet that he was in the ira.
I agree with you about nasty stuff on both sides.
I was honest when someone asked me about willie. That’s all
...and I don’t think I said it was reactionary. I would describe it as sectarian tit for tat

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

How is it a massive investment in the future if the island?
How do we know that the population won't change back to a bigger unionist population at some stage in the future?
In this UI are you putting an option in for Northern Ireland to leave it should the majority want to?

We don't know.
Why we would suddenly become enamoured with the idea of rejoining the union is a curious thesis to make though given the history of the last 100 years.

An no to the last part, nobody has a veto anymore. The majority of the island would have to decide. i.e. 'It is for the people of the island of Ireland alone who should decide their fate'.

That is the situation as it pertains now by the way.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Can you clarify what you believe is valid? Unionist hate sharing power with nationalists?

You are incorrect. I am a unionist and I very much want to share power with nationalists.

Yeah_Right

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What cost is this then?

If people want to vote against a UI on the basis of its "cost", then that is valid, but it would be incumbent on those in favour of a UI and indeed the government to show how much it WILL "cost" and not the mad pie in the sky numbers bandied about by your typical Partitionist.

To talk about a UI like it's some sort of zero-sum transaction is to completely miss the "cost" of not actually doing it.

Not to mention the untold and currently intangible benefits of doing same.

A UI is a massive INVESTMENT in the future of this island. That can never be understated.

I don't know how much it will cost. I've read figures of between €9 and €12 billion a year. Theres the initial outlay of converting everything from British to Irish. Everything to do with vehicles, transport, official documents, social welfare, signage, pensions, computer systems in government departments and dozens of other things I haven't thought of. Will the EU or the UK help? I don't know.

I've read that 30% of working adults in NI are in the public sector. Do we have to now pay for that bloated bureaucracy or will they made redundant? Who pays for that?

That's why I want to know what it will cost me before I'll vote for it. If no one can tell me, I'll definitely vote against it.

jh79

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't know how much it will cost. I've read figures of between €9 and €12 billion a year. Theres the initial outlay of converting everything from British to Irish. Everything to do with vehicles, transport, official documents, social welfare, signage, pensions, computer systems in government departments and dozens of other things I haven't thought of. Will the EU or the UK help? I don't know.

I've read that 30% of working adults in NI are in the public sector. Do we have to now pay for that bloated bureaucracy or will they made redundant? Who pays for that?

That's why I want to know what it will cost me before I'll vote for it. If no one can tell me, I'll definitely vote against it.

In 2016, SF claimed it would cost 2.7 bn sterling. EU fact check says this is false and will cost more than that.

https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/false-the-cost-of-irish-reunification-2-7-billion-pounds/

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

jh79 wrote:

In 2016, SF claimed it would cost 2.7 bn sterling. EU fact check says this is false and will cost more than that.

SF will false costing claims. What's new lol.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

In 2016, SF claimed it would cost 2.7 bn sterling. EU fact check says this is false and will cost more than that.

https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/false-the-cost-of-irish-reunification-2-7-billion-pounds/

It's worth quoting their conclusion for a few reasons:

While there may be some truth to Sinn Fein’s claim – considering all the variables – that reunification might not be as costly for the citizens of the Republic of Ireland as normally believed, in the short term several economic studies point towards a higher initial cost than £2.7 billion. We therefore conclude that the claim is false.

Interesting that they state that studies show that it may not 'be as costly for the citizens of the ROI as normally believed' and that 2.6billion or higher would be an 'initial cost'.

Hadn't seen that before.

jm08

20-30 years

Bambi wrote: »

Fitzgerald wasnt Taoiseach in that time period. It would be either Cosgrave or Lynch.

Garret was Min. for Foreign Affairs: March '73-77 (Sunningdale - Dec '73).



Taoiseach - '81-87 (Anglo-Irish Agreement - Nov. '85).

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

You are incorrect. I am a unionist and I very much want to share power with nationalists.

so what parts are valid? I am not talking about you but Unionists in general.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's worth quoting their conclusion for a few reasons:



Interesting that they state that studies show that it may not 'be as costly for the citizens of the ROI as normally believed' and that 2.6billion or higher would be an 'initial cost'.

Hadn't seen that before.

Lots of scary numbers in there too. 15% drop in living standards in the republic and a possible 10 year investment.

Where did the 25bn figure come from?

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

For goodness sake. Adams hasn’t even admitted yet that he was in the ira.
I agree with you about nasty stuff on both sides.
I was honest when someone asked me about willie. That’s all
...and I don’t think I said it was reactionary. I would describe it as sectarian tit for tat

Actually, going back to your claims about Willie. In his defence, you said he had a bad time growing up in a catholic area and that he was bullied. Yet in his wiki, it says that he played GAA up to U14, and that he said he got mass cards from catholic neighbours when his father was killed and in fact, an old IRA man had carried his father's coffin.


Is it that Willie told people what he thought they should hear?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Lots of scary numbers in there too. 15% drop in living standards in the republic and a possible 10 year investment.

That study used the upper 12 billion pounds a year figure as a base though.

Where did the 25bn figure come from?

No idea and I wondered myself about that. Sammy Wilson would have something to say about their contention that 56% of NI is with the EU too.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Actually, going back to your claims about Willie. In his defence, you said he had a bad time growing up in a catholic area and that he was bullied. Yet in his wiki, it says that he played GAA up to U14, and that he said he got mass cards from catholic neighbours when his father was killed and in fact, an old IRA man had carried his father's coffin.


Is it that Willie told people what he thought they should hear?

Both are completely true. No contradiction.
I grew up in a staunchly catholic area We had very good working relationships with neighbours and shared chores like silage cutting. Some of these same people were in the ira. One set up my Protestant neighbour and then visited to offer condolences. That was how it worked in rural communities

Paul_Crosby

downcow wrote: »

Both are completely true. No contradiction.
I grew up in a staunchly catholic area We had very good working relationships with neighbours and shared chores like silage cutting. Some of these same people were in the ira. One set up my Protestant neighbour and then visited to offer condolences. That was how it worked in rural communities

Well it makes his assertion of BBC glorifying terrorism by showing a GAA top in Eastenders that wasnt even a GAA top as all the more ludicrous doens't it. And he refused to apologise after it was pointed out to be a PE kit

Paul_Crosby

downcow wrote: »

For goodness sake. Adams hasn’t even admitted yet that he was in the ira.
I agree with you about nasty stuff on both sides.
I was honest when someone asked me about willie. That’s all
...and I don’t think I said it was reactionary. I would describe it as sectarian tit for tat

But it wasnt sectarian tit-for-tat, the loyalists killed 85 percent civilians, the RA had a far better track record when it came to that, if the RAs game was just to kill as many protestants as possible then the death toll for innocents would be off the charts considering their capabilites

Adams never admitted he was in the IRA because then he would have to admit he gave the order on killing Jean McConville, the scumbag that he is

But Willies last best mate before he died is very close with Dee McConnell, the guy who raped a woman and she killed herself afterwards, those two can;t get enough of eachother so we can do this all day

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Well it makes his assertion of BBC glorifying terrorism by showing a GAA top in Eastenders that wasnt even a GAA top as all the more ludicrous doens't it. And he refused to apologise after it was pointed out to be a PE kit

Don't forget the Italian flag on "Italian week" in that Newry school. The absolute "thramp" as he would say himself.

How anyone could come in here and talk about him positively given his actions over the years is beyond me.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Well it makes his assertion of BBC glorifying terrorism by showing a GAA top in Eastenders that wasnt even a GAA top as all the more ludicrous doens't it. And he refused to apologise after it was pointed out to be a PE kit

Don't forget the Italian flag on "Italian week" in that Newry school. The absolute "thramp" as he would say himself.

How anyone could come in here and talk about him positively given his actions over the years is beyond me.

---

I'm excited to find out what this week's strawmen are going to be..

Paul_Crosby

"When it was clear that transitional and progressive loyalism was aiming to take loyalism off the stage then you saw the fear in Adair’s eyes. When we said that it was over and the drugs and the crime had to go you saw him full ‘ah fear. You knew then that he would use any mean to try and destroy us lot who wanted peace. He started getting more sectarian as he thought if he could get the Provies back to war and then he could keep his wee criminal empire."

UVF commander, Forward to the Past

So why would you assert that loyalist attacks on random catholics where putting them off the PIRA? Even the guy Willie gave weapons to wanted to do more of it to try and provoke the IRA so he could drag them back to war in order to have his own fiefdom

Paul_Crosby

Don't forget that when Joe Bratty and Ray Elder were on their reign of sectarian murder, shooting up the bookies and plainly just murdering any catholic they could get their hands, the local IRA unit didn't retaliate by shooting up the Kimberly bar, they just waited outside in a van and executed those two

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

But it wasnt sectarian tit-for-tat, the loyalists killed 85 percent civilians, the RA had a far better track record when it came to that, if the RAs game was just to kill as many protestants as possible then the death toll for innocents would be off the charts considering their capabilites

Adams never admitted he was in the IRA because then he would have to admit he gave the order on killing Jean McConville, the scumbag that he is

But Willies last best mate before he died is very close with Dee McConnell, the guy who raped a woman and she killed herself afterwards, those two can;t get enough of eachother so we can do this all day

Your problem is you have to always sanitise the ira and suggest they were not sectarian when all the evidence is to the contrary.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Don't forget the Italian flag on "Italian week" in that Newry school. The absolute "thramp" as he would say himself.

How anyone could come in here and talk about him positively given his actions over the years is beyond me.

Well Bonnie there are people on here talking positively about the likes of bobby sands and that doesn’t seem to annoy you.
I was asked what I thought of Willie and I gave an honest appraisal of my direct experience of him. This is meant to be a discussion forum and if you would show a bit more integrity and honesty then we might learn something

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

"When it was clear that transitional and progressive loyalism was aiming to take loyalism off the stage then you saw the fear in Adair’s eyes. When we said that it was over and the drugs and the crime had to go you saw him full ‘ah fear. You knew then that he would use any mean to try and destroy us lot who wanted peace. He started getting more sectarian as he thought if he could get the Provies back to war and then he could keep his wee criminal empire."

UVF commander, Forward to the Past

So why would you assert that loyalist attacks on random catholics where putting them off the PIRA? Even the guy Willie gave weapons to wanted to do more of it to try and provoke the IRA so he could drag them back to war in order to have his own fiefdom

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are just making stuff up.
What sectarian attacks was scumbag Adair involved in post agreement???? And I have no idea what you Uvf comment means?