How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

Paul_Crosby wrote: »

Don't forget that when Joe Bratty and Ray Elder were on their reign of sectarian murder, shooting up the bookies and plainly just murdering any catholic they could get their hands, the local IRA unit didn't retaliate by shooting up the Kimberly bar, they just waited outside in a van and executed those two

Catholics, mostly innocent, took a terrible toll in early 92, Graham’s bookies being one incident. Whilst these were in retaliation for the ongoing murder of Protestant civilians by the IRA eg 8 at Teeban three weeks earlier, it had the effect of forcing the ira to end their sectarian campaign, accept the will of the people of ni, and enter Stormont
Even Peter Taylor quotes this in his book.

I know it’s unsavoury and to be condemned, but these killings are what brought pressure on the ira from within their own community to stop.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

Catholics, mostly innocent, took a terrible toll in early 92, Graham’s bookies being one incident. Whilst these were in retaliation for the ongoing murder of Protestant civilians by the IRA eg 8 at Teeban three weeks earlier, it had the effect of forcing the ira to end their sectarian campaign, accept the will of the people of ni, and enter Stormont
Even Peter Taylor quotes this in his book.

I know it’s unsavoury and to be condemned, but these killings are what brought pressure on the ira from within their own community to stop.

Utter bullshit. That's the lies that Unionists tell themselves to rationalise wanton mass-murder of innocent Catholics.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Utter bullshit. That's the lies that Unionists tell themselves to rationalise wanton mass-murder of innocent Catholics.

I know downcow is childishly ignoring those he cannot debate with but if somebody could ask him to quote where Taylor said such a thing that would be good.

Disgusting and tragic as Teebane was, the men killed where working for security forces and were killed for that, not because they were Protestant. Before anyone condemns me for saying that....Taylor points that out in his book.

Sinbad_NI

I think John Hume spoke a lot of sense back in 89.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v11/n03/john-hume/john-hume-on-the-end-of-the-unionist-veto-in-ulster

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I know downcow is childishly ignoring those he cannot debate with but if somebody could ask him to quote where Taylor said such a thing that would be good.

Disgusting and tragic as Teebane was, the men killed where working for security forces and were killed for that, not because they were Protestant. Before anyone condemns me for saying that....Taylor points that out in his book.

1 side was murdering for religious sectarianism.
Other side was murdering for politician sectarianism.

Both are and always will be completely abhorrent and the victims deserve to see the perpetrators get the full force of justice.

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

1 side was murdering for religious sectarianism.
Other side was murdering for politician sectarianism.

Both are and always will be completely abhorrent and the victims deserve to see the perpetrators get the full force of justice.

Which is all fine and upstandingly rigteous. The very state this happened in was 'sectarian'.

The only way to resolve what happened is a fully transparent trurh process( not a unique idea) where everybody discloses what they did.
But the British and Unionists oppose that...it took over 40 years and an incredible struggle to get the truth about Derry and a token culprit. Unionists are campaigning for protection and an amnesty for security forces

The moral grandstanding you are engaging in tarnishes a bit in light of that.

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which is all fine and upstandingly rigteous. The very state this happened in was 'sectarian'.

The only way to resolve what happened is a fully transparent trurh process( not a unique idea) where everybody discloses what they did.
But the British and Unionists oppose that...it took over 40 years and an incredible struggle to get the truth about Derry and a token culprit. Unionists are campaigning for protection and an amnesty for security forces

The moral grandstanding you are engaging in tarnishes a bit in light of that.

If you've something that proves guilt that many many thousands of the security forces were involved in collusion, terrorism, whatever. Then by all means tell us.
I don't think that amount of evidence would remain hidden for long.

So far I've certainly saw evidence of some that were up to their eyeballs in it... Tens certainly, maybe even a hundred if you add them all up, perhaps more, I don't know.
But to portray them as the enemy is just an easy and simple target in view. Were they were not simply the muscle of the state.
Should the governing leaders, politicians, etc not be your source of anger more than them for your grievances?
They would have been pulling the strings without a doubt?

FrancieBrady

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

If you've something that proves guilt that many many thousands of the security forces were involved in collusion, terrorism, whatever. Then by all means tell us.
I don't think that amount of evidence would remain hidden for long.

So far I've certainly saw evidence of some that were up to their eyeballs in it... Tens certainly, maybe even a hundred if you add them all up, perhaps more, I don't know.
But to portray them as the enemy is just an easy and simple target in view. Were they were not simply the muscle of the state.
Should the governing leaders, politicians, etc not be your source of anger more than them for your grievances?
They would have been pulling the strings without a doubt?

The point was that there are those who only want partial justice and truth.
Wear the cap if it fits.

SF and the IRA have said they are willing to take part in a Truth process if it involves everybody. The British and Unionism blocks that.

Sinbad_NI

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point was that there are those who only want partial justice and truth.
Wear the cap if it fits.

SF and the IRA have said they are willing to take part in a Truth process if it involves everybody. The British and Unionism blocks that.

I'd be more than happy for something like that. It would have my vote 100%.

munsterlegend

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I'd be more than happy for something like that. It would have my vote 100%.

Would want to be having it soon before everyone dies off. Probably be a lot of shocks in store which is why no Tory govt would ever allow it off the ground.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Would want to be having it soon before everyone dies off. Probably be a lot of shocks in store which is why no Tory govt would ever allow it off the ground.

There isnt a single Unionist politician willing to go thst route either. You have to wonder why those calling most loudly for truth wont put a structure in place to get at it.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There isnt a single Unionist politician willing to go thst route either. You have to wonder why those calling most loudly for truth wont put a structure in place to get at it.[/qu


I wonder why. Would it be there connections with terrorism? I always laugh at Gregory Campbell who basically said if shoe was on other foot and a United Ireland proposed he’d be out with his gun.

FrancieBrady

More grist to the mill:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/02/coronavirus-united-ireland-pandemic-

Paul_Crosby

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I think John Hume spoke a lot of sense back in 89.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v11/n03/john-hume/john-hume-on-the-end-of-the-unionist-veto-in-ulster

John Hume is the single greatest reason for the success of the Peace Process and there should be a statue stood in his honour for the hard work he done and was he got completely brushed aside by the praise for Gerry Adams and David Trimple had to get one because if ya give it to one ya have to give it to the other.

The Nobel Peace Prize means nothing now anyway sadly

blinding

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More grist to the mill:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/02/coronavirus-united-ireland-pandemic-

From a Financial Point of View ; Big Island Brits would be very foolish not to nudge a United Ireland Along. There is a lot of money to be saved.

Northern Ireland has been a Financial Disaster for the Big Island Brits; Particularly those in the South East of England and what do they have in Common with Northern Irish Unionists ? ! ! !

downcow

Here is more sf lockdown chaos and social distancing
Current Sinn Fein worker (and murderer of at least 9 innocent Protestants) displays that they still think they are the enforcers as he decides to intervene with an iron bar.
This is learned Sinn Fein behaviour and it is going to take at least a generation to unlearn it
https://mobile.twitter.com/WestBelfastUPRG/status/1256670265938972674

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Here is more sf lockdown chaos and social distancing
Current Sinn Fein worker (and murderer of at least 9 innocent Protestants) displays that they still think they are the enforcers as he decides to intervene with an iron bar.
This is learned Sinn Fein behaviour and it is going to take at least a generation to unlearn it
https://mobile.twitter.com/WestBelfastUPRG/status/1256670265938972674

When you say 'current Sinn Fein worker' - what does that entail?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

When you say 'current Sinn Fein worker' - what does that entail?

Here he is working away for the shinners a few months ago
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-shankill-ira-bomb-victim-disgusted-sinn-fein-using-sean-kelly-canvasser-1301945

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Here he is working away for the shinners a few months ago
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-shankill-ira-bomb-victim-disgusted-sinn-fein-using-sean-kelly-canvasser-1301945

I don't think you know what "currently" means.

FrancieBrady

I think this is a bad day for Ireland as an island. Terribly sad to see this and I think it will be regretted. Tremendous resource I have used many many times.
https://twitter.com/DearbhailDibs/status/1257337066704244739

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I don't think you know what "currently" means.

Well maybe you can update us.
My evidence is that this has been a bone of contention for many years. He has worked on Gerry Kelly's elections and I have shown evidence of him working for John Finucan up to end of 2019. There has been no indication from SF that he has stopped working for them even though they know it is causing great hurt to his victims.
Now maybe you will supply evidence that he is not currently and SF worker?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I don't think you know what "currently" means.

I see the PSNI are investigating. I would like to know what the guy being restrained at the start was up to.
Anything could have happened previous to the bit we seen. He has worked there for a while so clearly not normal behaviour.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think this is a bad day for Ireland as an island. Terribly sad to see this and I think it will be regretted. Tremendous resource I have used many many times.
https://twitter.com/DearbhailDibs/status/1257337066704244739

About CAIN?

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1257321596986880000?s=20

---

Dublin should really step in.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

About CAIN?

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1257321596986880000?s=20

---

Dublin should really step in.

Agree. It is a valuable whole island resource.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

About CAIN?

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1257321596986880000?s=20

---

Dublin should really step in.

I really do think there is a place for something more alive that captures the horror of what went on.
maybe set up in such a way as to demonstrate what each/all sides done to their neighbours. Maybe some case studies and some stuff that captures the pain.
I have never been to the concentration camp memorials, but i am thinking something like that.
Maybe you could go into rooms/areas which had been designed by victims of the groups.
Maybe the rooms size would represent the impact eg IRA would probably have the biggest room and the likes of the INLA have very small room eg the org that killed 500 people would have a room 500 square feet. In that room would be graphic displays of what they done and the stories told by victims. The organisations could also have rooms to tell their story and why they done it.
And of course there would need to be rooms for RUC etc.

Don't think it will ever happen as it would be like turkeys voting for xmas for perpetrators
CAIN was useful but boring and didn't tell the real story

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

Maybe the rooms size would represent the impact eg IRA would probably have the biggest room

You'd need an aircraft hanger sized room to represent the death and misery the British state has inflicted upon the Irish population.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You'd need an aircraft hanger sized room to represent the death and misery the British state has inflicted upon the Irish population.

The British cannot own up to what they did, and we are talking about rooms to represent what they did.

A long way to go until we reach the point where the whole story is known and subjective views of the conflict should never really be supported (nor can they be in all reasonableness) by a central democratic government.

Maybe after a full truth process a consensus view can be arrived at.
In the meantime an exhaustive and honest study and data repository like the CAIN resource can be and should be supported. Even if it is 'boring', there are those who find nothing boring about the truth of what happened.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Well maybe you can update us.
My evidence is that this has been a bone of contention for many years. He has worked on Gerry Kelly's elections and I have shown evidence of him working for John Finucan up to end of 2019. There has been no indication from SF that he has stopped working for them even though they know it is causing great hurt to his victims.
Now maybe you will supply evidence that he is not currently and SF worker?

What is the bone of contention? From what I read, he faced a jury and served 8 years. He also apologised to the family of the victims and told them it wasn't intentional (obviously not, since the guy he was with got killed).



What more should he do? The clocks can't be turned back to rectify the past.


It looks like loyalists just want to drive Kelly away from the peace process into the arms of the dissident republicans so that we get back to the good old days again.


I'd say Sinn Fein are well aware of what you are up to.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I really do think there is a place for something more alive that captures the horror of what went on.
maybe set up in such a way as to demonstrate what each/all sides done to their neighbours. Maybe some case studies and some stuff that captures the pain.
I have never been to the concentration camp memorials, but i am thinking something like that.
Maybe you could go into rooms/areas which had been designed by victims of the groups.
Maybe the rooms size would represent the impact eg IRA would probably have the biggest room and the likes of the INLA have very small room eg the org that killed 500 people would have a room 500 square feet. In that room would be graphic displays of what they done and the stories told by victims. The organisations could also have rooms to tell their story and why they done it.
And of course there would need to be rooms for RUC etc.

Don't think it will ever happen as it would be like turkeys voting for xmas for perpetrators
CAIN was useful but boring and didn't tell the real story

We all know why this will never happen because the British State will never own up to the wrongs they have committed on the island of Ireland. It took about 150 years to get an acknowledgement that there actually was a famine in the 1840s.

jm08

20-30 years

This is well worth a read, particularly by our friend Downcow and those who think people in the republic will not support a UI because of cost. Teams (GAA & Rugby) were all travelling north of the border throughout the Troubles (and had to pass through British checkpoints). Nice little story about Eddie Keher and Brian Cody staying up in Derry for a weekend tournament in the early 70s.



The GAA was our identity, part of a 'f**k you' to the rotten state we lived in
Joe Brolly

Far from damaging the GAA, the Troubles gave us a real sense of identity

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/the-gaa-was-our-identity-part-of-a-fk-you-to-the-rotten-state-we-lived-in-39176060.html