How long before Irish reunification?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

We all know why this will never happen because the British State will never own up to the wrongs they have committed on the island of Ireland. It took about 150 years to get an acknowledgement that there actually was a famine in the 1840s.

The plus of what is was proposing is that the brits, the IRA, etc would not have to admit anything. The victims would display what was done to them. Each organisation would be offered a space to tell (pr) it as they see fit. If the didn’t take the offer up then the space would be left empty as a symbol that they hand by any excuse.
I have no doubt the ira would fear this every bit as much as the army but they would have zero control to stop the truth being told (the victims truth).

As for space brits in your last post. It just shows how you misrepresent the past with talk of an aircraft hanger. I said it would be based on numbers killed so no matter how you wish to spin it they wouldn’t need anymore space than the ira

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

This is well worth a read, particularly by our friend Downcow and those who think people in the republic will not support a UI because of cost. Teams (GAA & Rugby) were all travelling north of the border throughout the Troubles (and had to pass through British checkpoints). Nice little story about Eddie Keher and Brian Cody staying up in Derry for a weekend tournament in the early 70s.



The GAA was our identity, part of a 'f**k you' to the rotten state we lived in
Joe Brolly

Far from damaging the GAA, the Troubles gave us a real sense of identity

This is undoubtedly true. The troubles have both side a very strong sense on community, identity, belonging, etc. It gave the loyal orders and marching bands and equally huge shot in the arm

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

This is well worth a read, particularly by our friend Downcow and those who think people in the republic will not support a UI because of cost. Teams (GAA & Rugby) were all travelling north of the border throughout the Troubles (and had to pass through British checkpoints). Nice little story about Eddie Keher and Brian Cody staying up in Derry for a weekend tournament in the early 70s.



The GAA was our identity, part of a 'f**k you' to the rotten state we lived in
Joe Brolly

Far from damaging the GAA, the Troubles gave us a real sense of identity

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/the-gaa-was-our-identity-part-of-a-fk-you-to-the-rotten-state-we-lived-in-39176060.html

Very good article I must search out to accompany this on Jim Neilly, the man who brought Ulster Championship football to the BBC at the incredibly recent date of 1989. Hard to believe that such a huge part of sport in NI only made the BBC properly that recently.
He talks of the opposition to what he was doing from Unionism and the control they thought they had of the airwaves.

armaghlad

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I really do think there is a place for something more alive that captures the horror of what went on.
maybe set up in such a way as to demonstrate what each/all sides done to their neighbours. Maybe some case studies and some stuff that captures the pain.
I have never been to the concentration camp memorials, but i am thinking something like that.
Maybe you could go into rooms/areas which had been designed by victims of the groups.
Maybe the rooms size would represent the impact eg IRA would probably have the biggest room and the likes of the INLA have very small room eg the org that killed 500 people would have a room 500 square feet. In that room would be graphic displays of what they done and the stories told by victims. The organisations could also have rooms to tell their story and why they done it.
And of course there would need to be rooms for RUC etc.

Don't think it will ever happen as it would be like turkeys voting for xmas for perpetrators
CAIN was useful but boring and didn't tell the real story

Think there were plans to have a peace centre at the Maze, think unionists opposed it for some reason. I wonder why

Esel

@downcow: Would you have a romper room or two in your design?

Kermit.de.frog

A UI would be nice to have some day but

Do we really want to import their sectarian stuff in to our country?

Why would we do this? Do people here want anything to do with that?

I don't think they do.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

A UI would be nice to have some day but
Do we really want to import their sectarian sh!te in to our country?
Why would we do this? Do people here want anything to do with that?
I don't think they do.

Well said, I think it shouldn't be considered for about 40-50 years when all those that were involved in sectarian actions are long gone.

FrancieBrady

armaghlad wrote: »

Think there were plans to have a peace centre at the Maze, think unionists opposed it for some reason. I wonder why

It is certain at this stage that both the British and Unionists do not want anything that might look truthfully at what happened. Neither a 'truth' process or any exhibition or process that might lay blame at their doors.
It is interesting that the Loyalist posting here wishes any truth process to be compartmentalised and in the control of the various factions/players.

That would only deepen divides and be of little use only to those with well defined senses of victim hood.
Take Ian Paisley at his word and 'let the truth fall where it may' should be the guiding principle.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

This is undoubtedly true. The troubles have both side a very strong sense on community, identity, belonging, etc. It gave the loyal orders and marching bands and equally huge shot in the arm

Any chance you would answer this?

What is the bone of contention? From what I read, he faced a jury and served 8 years. He also apologised to the family of the victims and told them it wasn't intentional (obviously not, since the guy he was with got killed).

What more should he do? The clocks can't be turned back to rectify the past.

It looks like loyalists just want to drive Kelly away from the peace process into the arms of the dissident republicans so that we get back to the good old days again.

I'd say Sinn Fein are well aware of what you are up to.

Loyalists often claim that the IRA won't apologise for their wrong doing. What are they trying to achieve by demanding apology and when they get it, they ignore it?

Pa ElGrande

A view from outside raising questions of the breakup of the United Kingdom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC6ye4weh7w

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Any chance you would answer this?



Loyalists often claim that the IRA won't apologise for their wrong doing. What are they trying to achieve by demanding apology and when they get it, they ignore it?

Can we have a genuine grown up conversation around this?
I am not aware of an apology? but apology is less of an issue than simply admitting what was done to my community. And yes the loyalists done likewise to the catholic community, but i think (and i emphasise, i think) they gave an 'abject' apology to everyone they hurt

downcow

armaghlad wrote: »

Think there were plans to have a peace centre at the Maze, think unionists opposed it for some reason. I wonder why

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that the opposition was to the Maze Stadium and that the 'peace centre' fell along with that.
Unionist politicians opposed it mainly due to intensive campaigning from the NI football supporters (of which I am one) who were desperately opposed to the stadium, and i am soooooooooo happy it did not happen

armaghlad

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that the opposition was to the Maze Stadium and that the 'peace centre' fell along with that.
Unionist politicians opposed it mainly due to intensive campaigning from the NI football supporters (of which I am one) who were desperately opposed to the stadium, and i am soooooooooo happy it did not happen

Well I’ll correct you now, it was not linked to the shared stadium. Unionists opposed it on the grounds of it supposedly being a “shrine to terrorism”. Or more likely not wanting to be seen on the wrong side of history.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Can we have a genuine grown up conversation around this?

Absolutely.

I am not aware of an apology? but apology is less of an issue than simply admitting what was done to my community. And yes the loyalists done likewise to the catholic community, but i think (and i emphasise, i think) they gave an 'abject' apology to everyone they hurt

Seemingly, from this article, Kelly has apologised more than once. How are you not aware of his apology?

Mr Kelly, who has said sorry for the attack in the past, used the latest anniversary event to reiterate his apology for what he described as an “IRA operation that went tragically wrong”.
"I am truly sorry for the loss of life and injuries suffered on that day, but there is nothing I can say that can bring any comfort to the families of the victims," he said.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/video-sean-kelly-in-tribute-to-thomas-begley-and-apology-for-shankill-bombing-loss-of-life-37465139.html

FrancieBrady

armaghlad wrote: »

Well I’ll correct you now, it was not linked to the shared stadium. Unionists opposed it on the grounds of it supposedly being a “shrine to terrorism”. Or more likely not wanting to be seen on the wrong side of history.

A quick look at google would do downcow no harm on two current topics on this thread. Kelly's apology and why the Maze fell apart.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A quick look at google would do downcow no harm on two current topics on this thread. Kelly's apology and why the Maze fell apart.

Remember how he couldn't even look at an ITV clip?

I just don't think he's able. Poor cratur.

eire4

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

A view from outside raising questions of the breakup of the United Kingdom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC6ye4weh7w

Some interesting points in terms of the consequences of the south and hard power losses resulting from an end to the UK.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Absolutely.






Seemingly, from this article, Kelly has apologised more than once. How are you not aware of his apology?







https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/video-sean-kelly-in-tribute-to-thomas-begley-and-apology-for-shankill-bombing-loss-of-life-37465139.html

I get what you are saying and can see where you are coming from.

Do you know I typed ‘I accept he is remorseful for the killings’ , but I had to go back and delete it as I actually don’t believe he is truly remorseful.
If he and begly had got drunk, put the chip pan on and burnt his own kids to death by mistake. Would he get up on a stage every year and mention that he was sorry he killed his kids while telling everyone of his friendship with begly.
...but let’s say I am wrong and he is remorseful, the issue is not about apologising for selective events. What we need to hear is an admission of the horror the ira brought on many people and my particular interest is an admission of the horror they visited upon rural Protestants.
Again. I believe the loyalists have done this. Or rather the leadership have done it - and that doesn’t make them wonderful people.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I get what you are saying and can see where you are coming from.

Do you know I typed ‘I accept he is remorseful for the killings’ , but I had to go back and delete it as I actually don’t believe he is truly remorseful.
If he and begly had got drunk, put the chip pan on and burnt his own kids to death by mistake. Would he get up on a stage every year and mention that he was sorry he killed his kids while telling everyone of his friendship with begly.
...but let’s say I am wrong and he is remorseful, the issue is not about apologising for selective events. What we need to hear is an admission of the horror the ira brought on many people and my particular interest is an admission of the horror they visited upon rural Protestants.
Again. I believe the loyalists have done this. Or rather the leadership have done it - and that doesn’t make them wonderful people.

You believe Loyalists have done what now?

But a guy who said sorry you don't believe.

Everyday is a learning day. Seems the bottom of the barrel is not quite scraped yet by yourself.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You believe Loyalists have done what now?

But a guy who said sorry you don't believe.

Everyday is a learning day. Seems the bottom of the barrel is not quite scraped yet by yourself.

bonnie this should be simple enough for you to understand.
Loyalist leaders have united to make a statement that they have abject remorse for everyone they hurt. Republicans have not.
Republicans will say 'sorry, we made a mistake there', but they will never apologise for all there actions

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

bonnie this should be simple enough for you to understand.
Loyalist leaders have united to make a statement that they have abject remorse for everyone they hurt. Republicans have not.
Republicans will say 'sorry, we made a mistake there', but they will never apologise for all there actions

I literally can't even...

So much so I expect my post to be in a LovinDublin countdown of best facepalm moments...

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

So now Arlene doesn't want an all island approach?

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/nuanced-changes-to-lockdown-but-nothing-more-foster-warns-39190669.html

Can't help but wave that little Butcher's Apron in her mind when she makes those sorts of statements.

---

Again which is it now, does she want warning or not when we do anything?

It's almost like she's being disingenuous. Imagine!

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

bonnie this should be simple enough for you to understand.
Loyalist leaders have united to make a statement that they have abject remorse for everyone they hurt. Republicans have not.
Republicans will say 'sorry, we made a mistake there', but they will never apologise for all there actions

Any chance of a link to this statement from all Loyalist leaders, Downcow?

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

bonnie this should be simple enough for you to understand.
Loyalist leaders have united to make a statement that they have abject remorse for everyone they hurt. Republicans have not.
Republicans will say 'sorry, we made a mistake there', but they will never apologise for all there actions

I think Republicans did in their customary way (P.O'Neill) in 2002:

"While it was not our intention to injure or kill non-combatants, the reality is that on this and on a number of other occasions that was the consequence of our actions.


"It is therefore appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us. We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families.

"There have been fatalities among combatants on all sides. We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives."

"The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants. It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others."


It concluded by stating that the Provisional movement remained unequivocally committed to the peace process, and dealing with its challenges, which "includes the acceptance of past mistakes and of the hurt and pain we have caused to others".


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/17/northernireland.northernireland2

Edit: The apology was huge at the time - Washington Post's reporting of it here.


IRA Issues Apology for All Deaths It Caused

The Irish Republican Army stunned both its friends and its foes today by expressing "sincere apologies and condolences" for all the people it killed in three decades of sectarian warfare in Northern Ireland.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/07/17/ira-issues-apology-for-all-deaths-it-caused/842fd4bd-e7f8-4f85-89a6-afacdcc8ccc5/

BloodyBill

As a southern centrist voter I think when the Nationalists and Unionists make Northern Ireland work then they can think about unification. However 20 years from now ,they may want to hit out on their own as an Independent state. At the moment a good 60% of Northerners are happy enough in the UK. That's good enough for me. Now we can revisit it all in about 20 years.
Just a quick comment on the Maze. It was never a fair location to have a peace and reconciliation spot. It would have turned into a Republican win. It was silly it got so far. The Republicans think they are 100% justified in their actions over the past 50 years. Theyve never had the inclination to have a look in the mirror because weve let them play the victims for so long. The Irish and American governments have a much to answer for as any British government.

armaghlad

10-15 years

BloodyBill wrote: »

Just a quick comment on the Maze. It was never a fair location to have a peace and reconciliation spot. It would have turned into a Republican win. It was silly it got so far. The Republicans think they are 100% justified in their actions over the past 50 years. Theyve never had the inclination to have a look in the mirror because weve let them play the victims for so long. The Irish and American governments have a much to answer for as any British government.

Could you elaborate a bit more there, who is “we”? How have Republicans played the victims?

BloodyBill

armaghlad wrote: »

Could you elaborate a bit more there, who is “we”? How have Republicans played the victims?

'We' are successive Southern Irish Governments and the Media. Weve always nodded and played along with the whinging narrative. 'That was all supposed to stop after the good Friday agreement. Equal opportunity for all voters.No more loudmouths with a chip on their shoulder saying ' we are the Palestinians of Northern Europe.' That kind of childish stuff. Weve let ye off with it for too long. Start making Northern Ireland work for yourselves and your nighbours. And stop annoying us

jm08

20-30 years

BloodyBill wrote: »

As a southern centrist voter I think when the Nationalists and Unionists make Northern Ireland work then they can think about unification. However 20 years from now ,they may want to hit out on their own as an Independent state. At the moment a good 60% of Northerners are happy enough in the UK. That's good enough for me. Now we can revisit it all in about 20 years.

You are completely deluded if you think that both tribes in Northern Ireland will ever want to hit out on their own together as an independent state.

Just a quick comment on the Maze. It was never a fair location to have a peace and reconciliation spot. It would have turned into a Republican win. It was silly it got so far.

Why would it have turned into a republican win. Surely it would be a shrine to a 'Peace win'? Loyalist paramilitaries were also imprisioned in the maze, so it could have just as well become a shrine to them.

The Republicans think they are 100% justified in their actions over the past 50 years. Theyve never had the inclination to have a look in the mirror because weve let them play the victims for so long. The Irish and American governments have a much to answer for as any British government.

What does it matter what republicans think at this stage? Who is the 'we' who you say has let them play the victim? Fine Gael or Fianna Fail certainly can't be accused of letting republicans play the victim!

As for your last comment - what have the Irish or American governments got to answer for?

FrancieBrady

BloodyBill wrote: »

As a southern centrist voter I think when the Nationalists and Unionists make Northern Ireland work then they can think about unification.

How many dead and how many years do you need to figure out that this particular partition will never 'work'?

It was not designed to work, it was designed to give a minority population a majority.

It still 'won't work' even if you switch around the minority and the majority.

armaghlad

10-15 years

BloodyBill wrote: »

'We' are successive Southern Irish Governments and the Media. Weve always nodded and played along with the whinging narrative. 'That was all supposed to stop after the good Friday agreement. Equal opportunity for all voters.No more loudmouths with a chip on their shoulder saying ' we are the Palestinians of Northern Europe.' That kind of childish stuff. Weve let ye off with it for too long. Start making Northern Ireland work for yourselves and your nighbours. And stop annoying us

I’d love to visit what ever planet you inhabit because that is some disingenuous waffle. What whinging narrative are you talking about? No more loudmouths? Who’s the loudmouths? Who really has a chip on their shoulder here?