How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

One thing's for sure, depending on how Brexit negotiations pan out, either there will be an economic border down the Irish sea, it there won't?

If an economic barrier is introduced in the Irish sea, then that's the beginning of the end for Northern Ireland being an integral part of the United Kingdom. (Yes, it may stay part of the UK in name), but ultimately it will be removed and treated differently on an economic basis, with all trade coming through the ROI & Dublin/Brussels) instead of Britain and London.

So let's wait and see what hapoens later his year.

It's done Hamster..if there is no deal, the backstop element kicks in. Same thing.

The belligerent Unionists are quietly getting on with it after yet again marching almost to the top of the hill. They get up less and less of that hill every time.
Jamie Bryson (couldn't think of his name earlier) has more or less been sidelined.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

That's not true. I have a clear preference for the health both in peace and financially of the Republic of Ireland.

So you're a partitionist.

That's a two way street.

And a street that you keep driving down.

I'm not quoting it for you.

Up to you. But don't complain when others don't "get you".

Well a bigot is a despicable creature. He creates the situations on which others act out.

Right?

I'm not siding with downcow, I just see him as the least biased of the regular posters here.

Which highlights so much of your hypocrisy and contrarianism,.

So you're telling me that there isn't a lot of people in Northern Ireland who are against a UI?

Am I?

No

Okie doke

I'm not against a border poll. Show me where I said that?

Originally Posted by BonnieSituation
So you have nothing to worry about in the event of a border poll. Why be so shirty wbout it all anyway?

Nice try. I never said you were against a border poll. I have repeatedly said, that given your partitionist outlook that you have nothing to worry about in a border poll given your opinion that the people of Ireland are so against a UI.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Well no point responding to any of that muck.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's done Hamster..if there is no deal, the backstop element kicks in. Same thing.

The belligerent Unionists are quietly getting on with it after yet again marching almost to the top of the hill. They get up less and less of that hill every time.
Jamie Bryson (couldn't think of his name earlier) has more or less been sidelined.

Bryson is laughable. Thanks he can gather the troops together like Paisley 40/50 years ago and then he just gives up and it all falls apart.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

Well no point responding to any of that muck.

Of course not.

You have nothing to respond with though. Don't pretend you're rising above anything. It's so transparent it's painful.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

munsterlegend wrote: »

Bryson is laughable. Thanks he can gather the troops together like Paisley 40/50 years ago and then he just gives up and it all falls apart.

He definitely is a cracking hunger striker.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

BonnieSituation wrote:

You have nothing to respond with though. Don't pretend you're rising above anything. It's so transparent it's painful.

It's just drivel so I've no response.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

eagle eye wrote: »

It's just drivel so I've no response.

I've responded to your responses. It's not my fault you decided to quote each individual post earlier on and distill them this way. It's okay.

I'm sure you'll be back with more stuff to refute later on this week.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Bryson is laughable. Thanks he can gather the troops together like Paisley 40/50 years ago and then he just gives up and it all falls apart.

That's the thing. Paisley had to back down, he couldn't muster enough to bring down the AIA and the GFA. Not only did he back down he gave up and accepted the GFA in practice.
Bryson's effort was pathetic in comparison, he hardly got a row started on Twitter.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's the thing. Paisley had to back down, he couldn't muster enough to bring down the AIA and the GFA. Not only did he back down he gave up and accepted the GFA in practice.
Bryson's effort was pathetic in comparison, he hardly got a row started on Twitter.

For all his faults, please don't compare Paisley to that charlatan.

jm08

20-30 years

Originally Posted by downcow View Post
Junkyard. Did you ever consider why Protestants were so fearful I united Ireland removed from the protection of the UK. I'm sure you're very aware that many Protestants, probably a majority, supported a united Ireland. What did your people do to make my people change their aspiration out of absolute fear of what you might do to them - or continue doing to them only on a greater scale?

A quick synopsis of what happened.

It all goes back to Home Rule and Partition. Protestants were the wealthy class and mostly supported maintaining the Union. Protestants in the North East and in the wealthier Dublin suburbs didn't support Home Rule, mainly out of economic reasons. The North East/Belfast was a very prosperous place with the shipbuilding and linen industries. They did not want to be lumped with the rest of the island because it was very poor (some accounts said that Dublin had the worst slums of Europe at the time).

Meanwhile up in Belfast, the prosperous middle class was a bit worried about the working class (catholic and protestant) might become a force to be reckoned with (they were watching what was going on in Dublin Jim Larkin/General Strike 1913) and decided on a divide and conquer plan by creating sectarian division between the catholic and protestant working class (by saying catholics would take their jobs etc. if they got any power). And they were very successful. Mind you, it came back to bite the Unionist middleclass with the rise of Rev. Ian Paisley until eventually, the DUP wiped out the UUP.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I thought the GFA was a bad thing for Nationalism?

You said you would be violent in event of a UI? So you think that violence in the event of a UI is justified even though it was the democratic will of the people of the whole island?

It’s pathetic when you need to make stuff up about the messenger just because you have no defence against the message. Pathetic

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If you did manage to come up with some sort of re-partitioned PUL statelet, where would it be? Or would you want a sort of West Bank scenario with PUL cantons. Would you envision population transfer?

It’s about as likely as a UI. So therefor a separate statelet is highly unlikely

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I don’t feel Irish but am not offended if people refer to me as Irish in good faith. I am very strongly northern Irish, and yes of course my nationality is British and I feel very British during remembrance, Olympic Games etc. But when it is NI specific ie football I just love beating England almost as much I love beating ROI
As to a UI. I guess it would be a great sense of loss. For me not so much the loss of the uk but the loss of NI. I am probably in a small minority of unionists who would give serious consideration to a UI that operates like UK ie I don’t lose my country.
I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could. Could you, if UK took over roi again??
I am sure each generation (nationalist and unionist) is getting more open to options their parents would not have considered. So I could see a UI settling down in a couple of generations. I really couldn’t even guess how many would leave. Don’t know what I would do myself.

Could I ask you the same question.
Let’s say dublin decided tomorrow to announce UI was no longer an option or objective and they said that nationalists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on how roi should cooperate with a uk which would include NI forever?

----
The post above is the one to which I referred. Did I make up what you said? Seems like quite an accusation.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I thought the GFA was a bad thing for Nationalism?

You said you would be violent in event of a UI? So you think that violence in the event of a UI is justified even though it was the democratic will of the people of the whole island?

downcow wrote: »

It’s pathetic when you need to make stuff up about the messenger just because you have no defence against the message. Pathetic

Sorry, I paraphrased you. I know how you love a verbatim quote.

So you wouldn't threaten violence or condone violence in the event of a UI coming to fruition?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

A quick synopsis of what happened.

It all goes back to Home Rule and Partition. Protestants were the wealthy class and mostly supported maintaining the Union. Protestants in the North East and in the wealthier Dublin suburbs didn't support Home Rule, mainly out of economic reasons. The North East/Belfast was a very prosperous place with the shipbuilding and linen industries. They did not want to be lumped with the rest of the island because it was very poor (some accounts said that Dublin had the worst slums of Europe at the time).

Meanwhile up in Belfast, the prosperous middle class was a bit worried about the working class (catholic and protestant) might become a force to be reckoned with (they were watching what was going on in Dublin Jim Larkin/General Strike 1913) and decided on a divide and conquer plan by creating sectarian division between the catholic and protestant working class (by saying catholics would take their jobs etc. if they got any power). And they were very successful. Mind you, it came back to bite the Unionist middleclass with the rise of Rev. Ian Paisley until eventually, the DUP wiped out the UUP.

So there we are. It all started with partition. There were no problems in Ireland before that. Lol. I would love some of what you are drinking tonight.

.....and then you set about completely contradicting yourself by telling us “Protestants were the wealthy class” and then you tell us about the “catholic and Protestant working class”. Haha. Trying to make a very complex situation with blame on all sides, into a black and white, let’s blame the prods, and you fall flat on your face.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

----
The post above is the one to which I referred. Did I make up what you said? Seems like quite an accusation.






Sorry, I paraphrased you. I know how you love a verbatim quote.

So you wouldn't threaten violence or condone violence in the event of a UI coming to fruition?

Haha. Yous have picked over that little sentence again and again to try and lower my to the level of the ra.
I have lived in ni throughout the troubles. I have watched neighbours killed by the Ira for no reason other than their religion. I have watched some so called loyalists do the same to their catholic neighbours. I still see the pain today in friends who lost husbands and fathers up to 40 years ago and other men still carrying awful injuries.
I never resorted to violence then or since.
Could I have - no doubt, given the right escalation of attack on my community.
If there is a UI (or any other catalyst to it all kicking off again), would I resort to violence - I am pretty certain I would not. Have I the capacity to if the attacks on my community are vicious enough - undoubtedly yes. Do I foresee this happening - no

Does that help put that little sentence to bed

mattser

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well if this thread is anything to go by it doesn't bode well for a "United" Ireland anytime in the near future.

Talk about hostile adversaries, and you want to Unite with each other, yeah right

This thread should be made mandatory reading for all voters pre vote. ' Truth process' ???. Peace & Reconciliation...??? Couldn't tell the truth if you paid them. ALL OF THEM. Keep them together.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

So there we are. It all started with partition. There were no problems in Ireland before that. Lol. I would love some of what you are drinking tonight.

It didn't start with partititon. It started with Home Rule being denied despite a majority in favour of it. The wealthy business and professional people didn't support home rule because they didn't want to be lumped with a poor country.

.....and then you set about completely contradicting yourself by telling us “Protestants were the wealthy class” and then you tell us about the “catholic and Protestant working class”. Haha. Trying to make a very complex situation with blame on all sides, into a black and white, let’s blame the prods, and you fall flat on your face.

There were a couple of classes - the wealthy owners of businesses and professional classes were predominatly protestant, then you had the skilled workers (engineers etc.) who were also predominatly protestant, then you had the unskilled workers like dockers which were a mix of catholic and protestants.

You need to read up on the 1907 Belfast Dock Strike organised by Jim Larkin.

The Belfast Dock strike or Belfast lockout took place in Belfast, Ireland from 26 April to 28 August 1907. The strike was called by Liverpool-born trade union leader James Larkin who had successfully organised the dock workers to join the National Union of Dock Labourers (NUDL). The dockers, both Protestant and Catholic, had gone on strike after their demand for union recognition was refused. They were soon joined by carters, shipyard workers, sailors, firemen, boilermakers, coal heavers, transport workers, and women from the city's largest tobacco factory. Most of the dock labourers were employed by powerful tobacco magnate Thomas Gallaher, chairman of the Belfast Steamship Company and owner of Gallaher's Tobacco Factory.

The Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) later mutinied when ordered to escort the blackleg drivers of traction engines used to replace the striking carters. Order was eventually restored when British Army troops were deployed. Although largely unsuccessful, the dock strike led to the establishment of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907_Belfast_Dock_strike

Edit: DC, I'm sure you will find this interesting.

That July [1007] Belfast experienced the most unusual Twelfth ever witnessed before or since. Instead of the traditional rioting and sectarian clashes which typically accompanied the Orange Order parades, the strike leaders gave public speeches defending the workers' interests against all forms of sectarianism.

On the Shankill Road, a Protestant area of the city and a regular scene of sectarian clashes, on 26 July 100,000 workers marched in support of the strike in a parade that featured flute bands from both Unionist and Nationalist traditions, a very rare occurrence. The parade ended at a mass rally held outside City Hall, where 200,000 demonstrators had gathered.

You can see how uneasy the establishment would get to see working class protestants and catholics uniting together!

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

It didn't start with partititon. It started with Home Rule being denied despite a majority in favour of it. The wealthy business and professional people didn't support home rule because they didn't want to be lumped with a poor country!

Seems the whole basis of your stance is based on some special Devine need an island has to be one country.
Seems you wanted the people of one wee part of the uk to be allowed to break away 100 years ago just because a majority of it wanted to? Yet you scoff at the idea of a wee part of a hypothetical UI being allowed to break away if there is a majority? What is the difference except one is geographical area? Would you apply this same rule to insist Canada and USA unite?

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Seems the whole basis of your stance is based on some special Devine need an island has to be one country.
Seems you wanted the people of one wee part of the uk to be allowed to break away 100 years ago just because a majority of it wanted to? Yet you scoff at the idea of a wee part of a hypothetical UI being allowed to break away if there is a majority? What is the difference except one is geographical area? Would you apply this same rule to insist Canada and USA unite?

This virus has shown theres no sense in having 2 jurisiticions

Try and justify the existance all you want,NI has been an utter failure to point it devolved into a 30 year civil war,nearly 25 years later and still vast swades of popultion are treated like dirt and p1ssed all over...

Unionists couldnt even compromise nor recognise nationlists wishes to bring an irish language act.....they've had 100 years at this stage to try make it work,and it simply hasnt

I see little point in pretending its gonna work into the future

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This virus has shown theres no sense in having 2 jurisiticions

Try and justify the existance all you want,NI has been an utter failure to point it devolved into a 30 year civil war,nearly 25 years later and still vast swades of popultion are treated like dirt and p1ssed all over...

Unionists couldnt even compromise nor recognise nationlists wishes to bring an irish language act.....they've had 100 years at this stage to try make it work,and it simply hasnt

I see little point in pretending its gonna work into the future

So you say we have a country that has historically suffered with discrimination, in which the minority discriminated population’s numbers have thrived. Your answer - is to unite it with a country that has historically suffered with discrimination, in which the minority discriminated population’s numbers have all but been wiped out.
You are a genius What a wonderfully logical solution

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

So you say we have a country that has historically suffered with discrimination, in which the minority discriminated population’s numbers have thrived. Your answer - is to unite it with a country that has historically suffered with discrimination, in which the minority discriminated population’s numbers have all but been wiped out.
You are a genius What a wonderfully logical solution

What discrimination is in the free state,in last 5 years....even the sf mayor of cashel shook had with the queen as he recognised the importance of her to a minority on the island and nationlists are treated like dirt,sneered at by unionists for wanting an language act


Your supposed wee country has complelty and utterly failed....why pretend the next 100 years will be any different

Runaways

10-15 years

Protestants aren’t discriminated against here though and never were.

Im worried about the huge trauma your community is going to go through when the border poll is called

Even if it doesn’t pass(un likely) you’ll finally have to come to terms with the reality the Brits want rid of N I

Dunno if you’re up to date with Brexit but you mmmight wanna check In as it relates to the north of Ireland:)

Runaways

10-15 years

Thought for the day


Boris Johnson began this crisis as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

He'll leave it as First Minister for England.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

What discrimination is in the free state,in last 5 years....even the sf mayor of cashel shook had with the queen as he recognised the importance of her to a minority on the island and nationlists are treated like dirt,sneered at by unionists for wanting an language act


Your supposed wee country has complelty and utterly failed....why pretend the next 100 years will be any different

The crucial failure for NI was it's failure to the UK. The AIA was the begining of that, Britain had enough at that point, they ended the Unionist veto and stood up to them finally in that. And Unionist leaders knew it. Read their reactions to that agreement to see it. The GFA was was further indication, it is the British withdrawing in spirit, so to speak. Belligerent Unionism still hasn't admitted that to itself.
You can see the rest of Unionism accepting the reality of it slowly as reactions to the normalising of society calmed down incrementally in the years since it was signed.
The Jamie Bryson's try their best but they are fighting a losing battle, moderate Unionism knows making a new accommodation is coming down the tracks.

downcow

Runaways wrote: »

Protestants aren’t discriminated against here though and never were.

all can say is, wise up
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/revealed-why-40000-protestants-fled-ireland-four-years-1126728

My own father was a family of 11 siblings living in two bedroom cottage in Donegal. While his heart always remained in beautiful Donegal, all 11 siblings moved to the safety and opportunity of Northern Ireland to live. He told many stories of the discrimination. A lot of this resulted from their treatment at school as one of only two protestant families attending and being forced to learn Irish etc. He also told of great catholic neighbours and how him and them would have done anything for eachother

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

What discrimination is in the free state,in last 5 years....even the sf mayor of cashel shook had with the queen as he recognised the importance of her to a minority on the island and nationlists are treated like dirt,sneered at by unionists for wanting an language act


Your supposed wee country has complelty and utterly failed....why pretend the next 100 years will be any different

Blaaz. I am not sure what you define as discrimination and also what discrimination you identify going on in NI in last 5 years - maybe you could give us a few examples??

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

This virus has shown theres no sense in having 2 jurisiticions

Tell the SNP that and see what reply you get lol

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

all can say is, wise up
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/revealed-why-40000-protestants-fled-ireland-four-years-1126728

My own father was a family of 11 siblings living in two bedroom cottage in Donegal. While his heart always remained in beautiful Donegal, all 11 siblings moved to the safety and opportunity of Northern Ireland to live. He told many stories of the discrimination. A lot of this resulted from their treatment at school as one of only two protestant families attending and being forced to learn Irish etc. He also told of great catholic neighbours and how him and them would have done anything for eachother

Everyone attending school in ireland learns irish?

They werent being discriminated againest,infact the absolute opposite,they were being treated the same as everyone else?

downcow

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

Tell the SNP that and see what reply you get lol

What has this got to do with irish unity?

The mainland uk isnt going to come out with less than 60K deaths...this mess they have made will be spoke about for generations