How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

The increase in the SF vote was down to disallusionment with the major parties. .

Is that generally why parties do well in an election? Support shifts. Are you hankering for the days of 'my daddy voted FF or FG so must I'?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

No. Hatred of the historic native language should not be pandered to.

Anyway, Unionists are the slowest of slow learners when it comes to this stuff, every time ye try to suppress the language you inspire more people to take it up, so in the future you'll have no choice but to deal with it.

Keep up the good work.

Well on your calculations we must not be doing very much suppressing then. What's the last count of Irish speakers who have been inspired by our intransigence.
"According to the 2011 UK Census, in Northern Ireland 184,898 (10.65%) claim to have some knowledge of Irish, of whom 104,943 (6.05%) can speak the language to varying degrees - but it is the home language of just 0.2% of people."

If a tiny percentage like that were involved in an aspect of my culture, I would not be so arrogant as to expect an act or financial support. The Irish speakers currently have massive financial support.

If your strategy to get people involved in the Irish language, is to rely on the unionist community being opposed to it, it's not really working currently for you.

What about working with the good people who love Irish language and encouraging them to talk about this beautiful part of their culture, instead of being so antagonistic and forceful

And before you blame the Brits, it seems it is on the decrease in your beloved ROI.
"The figures from Ireland’s Census 2016 show 73,803 people, of the total population of 4.75 million, speak Irish daily. This equates to 1.7 percent of the population.
This is a slight decrease from the last Census, in 2011, when the Central Statistics Office reported that, “there were 77,185 persons speaking Irish on a daily basis outside of the education system in April 2011.”

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

Grand so. So you've proven its not that ubiquitous nor is it a threat to you. So what's wrong with a language act to support and nurture it if that's what people want?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Grand so. So you've proven its not that ubiquitous nor is it a threat to you. So what's wrong with a language act to support and nurture it if that's what people want?

downcow doing the 'earnest, 'tis not us', routine again.

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Well on your calculations we must not be doing very much suppressing then. What's the last count of Irish speakers who have been inspired by our intransigence.
"According to the 2011 UK Census, in Northern Ireland 184,898 (10.65%) claim to have some knowledge of Irish, of whom 104,943 (6.05%) can speak the language to varying degrees - but it is the home language of just 0.2% of people."

There are only 57,602 Gaelic speakers in Scotland and they have a Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 which established a body to develop the language. Interesting the act was supported unaminously by their Parliament.

If a tiny percentage like that were involved in an aspect of my culture, I would not be so arrogant as to expect an act or financial support. The Irish speakers currently have massive financial support.

If your strategy to get people involved in the Irish language, is to rely on the unionist community being opposed to it, it's not really working currently for you.

What about working with the good people who love Irish language and encouraging them to talk about this beautiful part of their culture, instead of being so antagonistic and forceful

Chicken and Egg DC, if you don't support the language, no one will speak it.

And before you blame the Brits, it seems it is on the decrease in your beloved ROI.
"The figures from Ireland’s Census 2016 show 73,803 people, of the total population of 4.75 million, speak Irish daily. This equates to 1.7 percent of the population.
This is a slight decrease from the last Census, in 2011, when the Central Statistics Office reported that, “there were 77,185 persons speaking Irish on a daily basis outside of the education system in April 2011.”

Actually, I was listening to an interview with the Collison Brothers (young entrepreneurs of the payment system Stripe and who are worth about $3 bn each) who went to a Gaelscoil in Nenagh who say that in meetings that they use Irish to communicate with each other when they don't want the others to understand what they are saying. So maybe the decline of the use of the Irish language is due to a lot of Irish speakers doing well for themselves in the Boardrooms of Silicon Valley!

munsterlegend

jm08 wrote: »

There are only 57,602 Gaelic speakers in Scotland and they have a Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 which established a body to develop the language. Interesting the act was supported unaminously by their Parliament.





Chicken and Egg DC, if you don't support the language, no one will speak it.





Actually, I was listening to an interview with the Collison Brothers (young entrepreneurs of the payment system Stripe and who are worth about $3 bn each) who went to a Gaelscoil in Nenagh who say that in meetings that they use Irish to communicate with each other when they don't want the others to understand what they are saying. So maybe the decline of the use of the Irish language is due to a lot of Irish speakers doing well for themselves in the Boardrooms of Silicon Valley!

I don’t think there is an Irishperson who hasn’t used Irish in a lift abroad to have some fun.

Runaways

10-15 years

Refusing actual natives the right to speak to native language And have it protected in law is some next level postcolonial bull**** but hey Unionists so easily threatened by a language

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

According to the 2011 UK Census

Give it time DC. You Unionists are utterly woeful at playing the long game.

2011 was before Gregory Campbell mocked the language, the hateful arsehole. 2011 was before Paul Girvan cut a paltry fund for disadvantaged kids to go improve their Irish speaking skills, the spiteful moron. 2011 was before Unionists united in their hatred and bitterness to block and ILA.

These rights/norms are not Unionists' to dole out as they see fit. These issues aren't going away and your Unionist dominance is in decline.

Keep up the good work.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Give it time DC. You Unionists are utterly woeful at playing the long game.

2011 was before Gregory Campbell mocked the language, the hateful arsehole. 2011 was before Paul Girvan cut a paltry fund for disadvantaged kids to go improve their Irish speaking skills, the spiteful moron. 2011 was before Unionists united in their hatred and bitterness to block and ILA.

These rights/norms are not Unionists' to dole out as they see fit. These issues aren't going away and your Unionist dominance is in decline.

Keep up the good work.

I have lost count of the amount of times Unionism has shot itself in the foot.
Completely and utterly unable to come out of the bubble and see how they are viewed.

What worse is they lose all of the hills they climb up onto and still it continues.

Fr D Maugire

Yon know what, it is amazing to see someone say that an ancient native language is being used to mark territory and threaten, without a hint of irony. If true, wtf is the OO and 12th of July about if not marking territory and threatning people? Why is one ok, but the other not?

I mean on one hand you have a language that pre-dates any religious divide in this country, that some people would like to preserve.

And on the other is an organisation that formed on the killing of Catholics, does not permit Catholics, celebrates a battle from a period of religious intolerance of which the aftermath was the introduction of penal laws persecuting mainly Catholics for over a 100 years. And is still celebrated 300 years later

But a language folks, that is the BIG, BIG threat.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

Is that generally why parties do well in an election? Support shifts. Are you hankering for the days of 'my daddy voted FF or FG so must I'?

I have never been a supporter of any party. There would have been SF and Fine Gael voters in my family, my father is from right beside the border in Monaghan and I'm sure you can guess which way they voted.
I see lots of idiots that have supported one party their whole lives. Now though after the banking crisis and horrendous display by Varadkar, Harris et al there are a lot of people who don't know what way to vote. Couple that with the fact this election was the first I can remember on a weekend and it all played into SF's hands with students who are normally very socialist in outlook getting the chance to vote.
SF showed how stupid they were by not putting enough candidates forward to capatalise fully.
I always find it funny how those with little money are always for the lefties and those who have a few quid always for the more right sided parties. It's not like it makes any difference who you vote into power in this country because most of them are clueless and renege on their promises.

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

I have never been a supporter of any party. There would have been SF and Fine Gael voters in my family, my father is from right beside the border in Monaghan and I'm sure you can guess which way they voted.
I see lots of idiots that have supported one party their whole lives. Now though after the banking crisis and horrendous display by Varadkar, Harris et al there are a lot of people who don't know what way to vote. Couple that with the fact this election was the first I can remember on a weekend and it all played into SF's hands with students who are normally very socialist in outlook getting the chance to vote.
SF showed how stupid they were by not putting enough candidates forward to capatalise fully.
I always find it funny how those with little money are always for the lefties and those who have a few quid always for the more right sided parties. It's not like it makes any difference who you vote into power in this country because most of them are clueless and renege on their promises.

Power generally shifts when people are disillusioned with the incumbents.

Too easy and lazy to call it a protest vote. It is as if you want to say there is something false about it.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Grand so. So you've proven its not that ubiquitous nor is it a threat to you. So what's wrong with a language act to support and nurture it if that's what people want?

.....because we have zero idea what you are asking for. See post about court cases etc

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Yon know what, it is amazing to see someone say that an ancient native language is being used to mark territory and threaten, without a hint of irony. If true, wtf is the OO and 12th of July about if not marking territory and threatning people? Why is one ok, but the other not?
at.

I actually agree with you. They are both used to mark territory. They both are a chill factor to one or other community.
You won’t find me defending one and condemning the other.
Both should get exactly the same treatment. As they are treasured by one community and at best disregarded by the other community.
I said on here a very long time age to give equal support to loyalist parading and Irish language.

I agree completely with you.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

I actually agree with you. They are both used to mark territory. They both are a chill factor to one or other community.
You won’t find me defending one and condemning the other.
Both should get exactly the same treatment. As they are treasured by one community and at best disregarded by the other community.
I said on here a very long time age to give equal support to loyalist parading and Irish language.

I agree completely with you.

If that is the case, why is the whole of Unionism against the Irish Language Act as you stated earlier?

Also equating the Irish language with OO/12th July is silly. Most cultures around the world have language as an intrinsic part of their identity. How many have something akin to OO/12th July as their main form of identity?

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

FrancieBrady wrote:

Power generally shifts when people are disillusioned with the incumbents.

I said there is disillusionment with the two main parties and then add all the students voting for maybe the first time ever and there's your result.

FrancieBrady wrote:

Too easy and lazy to call it a protest vote. It is as if you want to say there is something false about it.

There isn't an attractive option. SF were considered by a good portion as a better option to two proven failures.

FrancieBrady

eagle eye wrote: »

I said there is disillusionment with the two main parties and then add all the students voting for maybe the first time ever and there's your result.


There isn't an attractive option. SF were considered by a good portion as a better option to two proven failures.

A students vote is a vote, worth exactly the same as anyone else's. Do you want to take it off them just because they use it in a way you don't want them too?

We could do that with any demographic that don't vote how we want.

It was a vote to change the current government of FG and independents. Simple as.

Hamsterchops

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Most cultures around the world have language as an intrinsic part of their identity.

For me here in the South, the 12th is not something I've ever witnessed, although I gather it's big in Ulster and parts of Scotland & the North of England. It's a regional thing, a blast from the past, an ancient tradition & a marking out of turf from ye olden days of Orange Vs Green, it's s funny old thing I'd like to see some day, big drums & funny walks, flags & bowler hats

Regarding the Irish language act up North, well the problem with that is that the language was hijacked & weaponised by the Republican side a long time ago (during the latter stages of the Troubles), the Tricolour was also hijacked by them and God knows it took a long time to get it back.

For many years the Tricolour was seen as an "IRA flag" and the same then happened with the Irish language, whereby it has been used as a tool to eat away at the "non indigenous" Anglo culture, which is a shame really, because Irish has a place in the modern world, even if bugger all people need it for business & commerce. The Irish language (like the 12th) is being used as a way to mark out ones turf, lifting the hind leg and getting "one over" on (against) the other side.

That's what I perceive from it....

Talking about Irish generally. They/we need to chill a little on the old language front, no need for such a mandatory enforcement of Irish in schools, as not only does it scare the Nordies, but it has does untold damage to the heritage of the language, with generation after generation rebelling against mandatory Irish since it was artificially reintroduced in the early 1930s into ROI schools.

But that's for another thread on another day

Runaways

10-15 years

Well look at that. An east west border between N I & G B

I’m sure I heard boris say this definitely wouldn’t happen

He wouldn’t have lied about it would he?
Surely not

https://twitter.com/morpheusni/status/1260824075758256128?s=21

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

If that is the case, why is the whole of Unionism against the Irish Language Act as you stated earlier?

Also equating the Irish language with OO/12th July is silly. Most cultures around the world have language as an intrinsic part of their identity. How many have something akin to OO/12th July as their main form of identity?

I am up for serious discussion and learning but then we can’t just avoid the hard questions.
The key reasons we are against an ILA is (1) that there is no clarity around what it is or what the parameters are. I guess it’s a fear (maybe not the correct word) that it will be used and abused by a small group to get more and more (no doubt what was in Arleen’s mind when she used the feeding crocodiles). (2) The other problem is, as another poster just said on here ‘lauding it over us’. (3) marking territory and majority decide where it happens.
If you could genuinely put these concerns to bed for me it would be helpful. I am not at all against the IL, it’s the ILA I am concerned about in a very devided society

We listen to IL supporters with huge demands eg court cases held in Irish whilst every single person in the courtroom including defendant is more proficient in English.
Statements that IL signs must go up on the Shankill road whether locals want them or not.

Help me with the 3 points

munsterlegend

Runaways wrote: »

Well look at that. An east west border between N I & G B

I’m sure I heard boris say this definitely wouldn’t happen

He wouldn’t have lied about it would he?
Surely not

https://twitter.com/morpheusni/status/1260824075758256128?s=21

Good time to get it done by Boris. Post Covid the north won’t be on his agenda.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

downcow wrote: »

I am up for serious discussion and learning but then we can’t just avoid the hard questions.
The key reasons we are against an ILA is (1) that there is no clarity around what it is or what the parameters are. I guess it’s a fear (maybe not the correct word) that it will be used and abused by a small group to get more and more (no doubt what was in Arleen’s mind when she used the feeding crocodiles). (2) The other problem is, as another poster just said on here ‘lauding it over us’. (3) marking territory and majority decide where it happens.
If you could genuinely put these concerns to bed for me it would be helpful. I am not at all against the IL, it’s the ILA I am concerned about in a very devided society

We listen to IL supporters with huge demands eg court cases held in Irish whilst every single person in the courtroom including defendant is more proficient in English.
Statements that IL signs must go up on the Shankill road whether locals want them or not.

Help me with the 3 points

I'd suggest that many of your concerns would be at least somewhat alleviated if you had read the proposed ILA legislation, and looked to Scotland and Wales for an idea of the implementation of such legislation.

I always thing a good degree of outrage on both sides is a pretty good sign that a reasonable compromise has been struck. The leaked ILA legislation that was proposed had a very large number of people in the middle who were either happy with it or not bothered by it, and a small group of the perpetually outraged from either side, moaning that it went too far on the Loyalist side, and not far enough from the Republican side.

I suspect that many of the concerns raised are just a trojan horse to block any support for anything, 'themmuns' though. No matter how reasonable the request, some hypothetical and highly unlikely scenario will be wheeled out with a load of faux concern to explain why certain people, 'have no problem with the Irish language, but couldn't possibly support this legislation'

munsterlegend

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd suggest that many of your concerns would be at least somewhat alleviated if you had read the proposed ILA legislation, and looked to Scotland and Wales for an idea of the implementation of such legislation.

I always thing a good degree of outrage on both sides is a pretty good sign that a reasonable compromise has been struck. The leaked ILA legislation that was proposed had a very large number of people in the middle who were either happy with it or not bothered by it, and a small group of the perpetually outraged from either side, moaning that it went too far on the Loyalist side, and not far enough from the Republican side.

I suspect that many of the concerns raised are just a trojan horse to block any support for anything, 'themmuns' though. No matter how reasonable the request, some hypothetical and highly unlikely scenario will be wheeled out with a load of faux concern to explain why certain people, 'have no problem with the Irish language, but couldn't possibly support this legislation'

Sure Jim Allister whose hatred of anything Irish has no limits except the battle of the boyne was saying that loads of people will lie on their census forms claiming to be able to speak Irish. As you say hypothetical faux outrage.

FrancieBrady

Runaways wrote: »

Well look at that. An east west border between N I & G B

I’m sure I heard boris say this definitely wouldn’t happen

He wouldn’t have lied about it would he?
Surely not

https://twitter.com/morpheusni/status/1260824075758256128?s=21

Jamie Bryson adamant that 'No Unionist can accept this'. Apparently he feels that the PM finally concedeing the point has been 'Provonised' by SF. Whatever that means.

I wonder what downcow thinks, can he accept it?

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jamie Bryson adamant that 'No Unionist can accept this'. Apparently he feels that the PM finally concedeing the point has been 'Provonised' by SF. Whatever that means.

I wonder what downcow thinks, can he accept it?

At least social distancing will make Jamie’s protest march look bigger.

Hamsterchops

munsterlegend wrote: »

Sure Jim Allister whose hatred of anything Irish has no limits except the battle of the boyne was saying that loads of people will lie on their census forms claiming to be able to speak Irish. As you say hypothetical faux outrage.

Well certainly here in the south people are always economical with the truth as to whether or not they can speak Irish, and seeing as the census form doesn't specify what speaking Irish actually means, even people with the most rudimentary cupla focal tick the YES Box✓

I can speak Irish, well yes I can, but I couldn't hold a two-way conversation in Irish without help.

Suggest any future census forms are printed exclusively in Irish and sent to those households that ticked the Yes box in the last cansus. That would seperate the wheat from the chaff....

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

focal tick the YES Box✓

That would be 'bosca Tá or Sea.'

Seriously are you proposing an exam on this? If somebody is answering yes, they are doing it because they think the language and it's survival is important.
A far more interesting question would be 'why does a language threaten you so much, why are you so insecure that it would bother you?'

munsterlegend

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well certainly here in the south people are always economical with the truth as to whether or not they can speak Irish, and seeing as the census form doesn't specify what speaking Irish actually means, even people with the most rudimentary cupla focal tick the YES Box✓

I can speak Irish, well yes I can, but I couldn't hold a two-way conversation in Irish without help.

Suggest any future census forms are printed exclusively in Irish and sent to those households that ticked the Yes box in the last cansus. That would seperate the wheat from the chaff....

Well given the growth of Gaelscoils hopefully that won’t be an issue into the future. Language teaching in this state was horrendous in all languages up to 20/30 years ago. Now we have the internet and other tools to help together with modern fun teaching methods rather that the draconian methods of the past.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That would be 'bosca Tá or Sea.'

Seriously are you proposing an exam on this? If somebody is answering yes, they are doing it because they think the language and it's survival is important.
A far more interesting question would be 'why does a language threaten you so much, why are you so insecure that it would bother you?'

I remember well after the last census this very discussion on the radio with Pat Kenny, who tore the whole (I can speak Irish) argument to pieces in that anybody who wanted Irish to survive ticked the Yes box.

I want Irish to continue, but if ticked the Yes box I would be telling an untruth, although that's what many people do anyway.

I am for retaining the Irish language, but not under artificial means.

Runaways

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jamie Bryson adamant that 'No Unionist can accept this'. Apparently he feels that the PM finally concedeing the point has been 'Provonised' by SF. Whatever that means.

I wonder what downcow thinks, can he accept it?

All over northern Irish Twitter this morning the usual Unionist mouthpiece hpieces are somehow blaming this east west border on Sinn Fein and it was a goal of nationalism apparently

None of them have mentioned it was aarlenne And her stubbornness and incompetence and lack of vision actually brought this about somehow it’s a big nationalist plot nothing to do with Boris Johnson