How long before Irish reunification?

Runaways

10-15 years

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not trying to achieve anything, just having a conversation.

You have taken two unnecessary swipes at me against the form charter But I will allow it. A different flavour of comedy other than DCs it’s well cool

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Runaways wrote:

You have taken two unnecessary swipes at me against the form charter But I will allow it. A different flavour of comedy other than DCs it’s well cool

And you called a guy a troll.

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

Yeah_Right wrote:

Pointing out that you are wrong, is acting like a child?? Are you a Sinn Fein supporter?

No trying to find issues that are not relevant to the conversation is childish.
And no I'm certainly not a SF supporter. Obviously you don't read the thread or you'd have seen that I don't want a UI.

Runaways

10-15 years

eagle eye wrote: »

And you

called a guy a troll.

You are not a moderator Or his mummy I hope not anyway

His is a parody account according to him anyway I treat it as such mind your own business if you don’t like it there’s an ignore function
Use it

Hamsterchops

'Two Tribes' as Frankie would say, one fervently British & Unionist, the other staunchly Irish & Nationalist, not forgetting Loyalists & Republicans at the extremes (how could we)

Then more recently we may have a new breed neither fish nor fowl, I give you the "Northern Irish" breed, who may not be British or Irish, but somewhere in the middle.

A new & emerging strain of islander ?

Frankie also said Relax

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

We are closer to each other than you think.
I am not saying have orange parades and have no IL
You are saying have ILA but have no cultural act.
I am actually saying (and so are unionist parties) it’s both or neither. ie have Cultural Act which include both parading and IL. surely that is fair

I am a little confused with this post. Are you saying that the Irish Language and the 12th currently have the same status in NI? I am pretty sure the 12th is a recognised official holiday whilst Irish is not recognised in any official form. If the price of getting rid of 12th/OO was no recognition for Irish, most would take it I think.

FrancieBrady

Downcow now wants to segregate culture into 'themuns and us'.

An ILA is for everyone, not just for themuns. The Irish language is part of everyone born on this islands heritage...just as the planter castle etc is part of my heritage.

munsterlegend

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I can give you a heads up, having experienced both emergency and non-emergency surgery in both the North and in Dublin.

For my non-emergency treatment in Dublin, I paid for a GP visit, and was referred to a hospital for surgery. The process was MUCH faster than my non-emergency treatment in the North, where I was on a waiting list for a long time for another non-emergency surgery about twelve years back. My health insurance then sent me back the money I spent for the GP visit, and my health insurance details were taken at the hospital, and they were paid directly by my insurer. I spent around €12 on the prescription afterwards, as this isn't covered by my health insurance. All in all, I would consider the €12 extra expense worth it for the increased speed I received my treatment. I receive my health insurance through work, along with a salary in significant excess of what I would in the North. All in all, my non-emergency healthcare was not negatively impacted by not having the NHS.

As for my emergency care, in the North, during my younger years, after an accident, I was taken by ambulance to my local hospital, examined and stabilised before being put into another ambulance and brought straight to the Altnagelvin, where I received absolutely fantastic treatment, indeed the staff there are the reason I still have the lower half of my right leg. At the time, there was a bed shortage in the Altnagelvin, so I stayed in a large geriatric ward for the weeks I was recovering.

In Dublin, I presented to A&E with an emergency, was immediately triaged through, examined and admitted at Connolly Hospital, a few minutes later, I was being brought across to Beaumont, arrived to an ENT doctor waiting for me, straight in to surgery, out to a private room, where I spent around a week. Around two days after my surgery, I was asked if I had health insurance or a medical card, I told them I had health insurance, they took my details and were paid directly by my insurers. I wasn't out of pocket at all during this time.

Health insurance is an almost universal perk to any professional level employment down here, so it isn't very likely I'll ever be in a position where I don't have the type of treatment I outlined above, however there are also protections in place for those who aren't fortunate enough to earn much, in the form of a medical card. The only difference in treatment I would've received with a medical card versus my health insurance is that I would have been on a ward rather than a private room in the hospital.

Neither the HSE nor the NHS are perfect, but apart from my private room and giving someone my health insurance details, not much of a difference.

The NHS v HSE debate is something I would be avoiding if I were a Unionist. This pandemic has shown how completely underfunded the NHS were and neglected by its govt.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I can give you a heads up, having experienced both emergency and non-emergency surgery in both the North and in Dublin.

For my non-emergency treatment in Dublin, I paid for a GP visit, and was referred to a hospital for surgery. The process was MUCH faster than my non-emergency treatment in the North, where I was on a waiting list for a long time for another non-emergency surgery about twelve years back. My health insurance then sent me back the money I spent for the GP visit, and my health insurance details were taken at the hospital, and they were paid directly by my insurer. I spent around €12 on the prescription afterwards, as this isn't covered by my health insurance. All in all, I would consider the €12 extra expense worth it for the increased speed I received my treatment. I receive my health insurance through work, along with a salary in significant excess of what I would in the North. All in all, my non-emergency healthcare was not negatively impacted by not having the NHS.

As for my emergency care, in the North, during my younger years, after an accident, I was taken by ambulance to my local hospital, examined and stabilised before being put into another ambulance and brought straight to the Altnagelvin, where I received absolutely fantastic treatment, indeed the staff there are the reason I still have the lower half of my right leg. At the time, there was a bed shortage in the Altnagelvin, so I stayed in a large geriatric ward for the weeks I was recovering.

In Dublin, I presented to A&E with an emergency, was immediately triaged through, examined and admitted at Connolly Hospital, a few minutes later, I was being brought across to Beaumont, arrived to an ENT doctor waiting for me, straight in to surgery, out to a private room, where I spent around a week. Around two days after my surgery, I was asked if I had health insurance or a medical card, I told them I had health insurance, they took my details and were paid directly by my insurers. I wasn't out of pocket at all during this time.

Health insurance is an almost universal perk to any professional level employment down here, so it isn't very likely I'll ever be in a position where I don't have the type of treatment I outlined above, however there are also protections in place for those who aren't fortunate enough to earn much, in the form of a medical card. The only difference in treatment I would've received with a medical card versus my health insurance is that I would have been on a ward rather than a private room in the hospital.

Neither the HSE nor the NHS are perfect, but apart from my private room and giving someone my health insurance details, not much of a difference.

That is helpful. Thanks.
What is the story if you visit your GP eg (to my embarrassment) with a fungal toenail infection?

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I am a little confused with this post. Are you saying that the Irish Language and the 12th currently have the same status in NI? I am pretty sure the 12th is a recognised official holiday whilst Irish is not recognised in any official form. If the price of getting rid of 12th/OO was no recognition for Irish, most would take it I think.

Well I think you are wrong there, only my opinion but I do not think most would take it.
You have a very skewed opinion of the 12th.
The vast majority of people who go to the 12th, go because it is an opportunity to meet up with the people they were reared with. Communities come back to their roots. Many people who grew up along with me, the only time I see them is the 12th.
I know you are infatuated with the Battle of the Boyne and 1690, but for almost everyone attending the 12, it is a family event, ice cream and bouncy castles. Growing up I remember we always got new clothes for going to the 12th. For most kids in Northern Ireland who attend the 12th, they will rate it and the 11th night as number one with Christmas a close number two.
I don't know anyone who heads out to the 12th to upset anyone or with any sense of triumphalism, it's just a great time of family reunion.

I know the picture you are interested in painting, but it really is far from reality. the 12 July and the whole marching season, apart from tiny exceptions, is funded out of the pockets of those taking part. It has not required money thrown at to ensure it remains valuable to our community. It is just a special time that we all enjoy, and will continue to attend.
Irish language on the other hand receives masses of funding to try and keep it relevant to the tiny minority of people who take it seriously.
I actually believe that genuine culture requires no funding. Once funding is applied to culture, then those that hold the purse strings are directing it, and deciding what they would like people to follow. If a culture is worth maintaining it certainly does not need money. If a community decided that they will not maintain a culture without money, then it is best that community decides what they are interested in and moves on.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

The NHS v HSE debate is something I would be avoiding if I were a Unionist. This pandemic has shown how completely underfunded the NHS were and neglected by its govt.

I don't know where you're getting your news, but everyone in Northern Ireland is highly impressed with the fact that our NHS was never even close to being at capacity. I don't know if you were aware that we have cut eg our liver transplant waiting list by 1/3 because we had so much overcapacity during Covid.

This is the nonsense that I get frustrated listening to on here

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting your news, but everyone in Northern Ireland is highly impressed with the fact that our NHS was never even close to being at capacity. I don't know if you were aware that we have cut eg our liver transplant waiting list by 1/3 because we had so much overcapacity during Covid.

This is the nonsense that I get frustrated listening to on here

Oh right one country when it suits. Some union. I’m glad I was in Ireland for this and not somewhere like England which has been a jokeshop.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Oh right one country when it suits. Some union. I’m glad I was in Ireland for this and not somewhere like England which has been a jokeshop.

I don't know what you're talking about, I have always regarded Northern Ireland as a country but within the bigger union of the UK.
I do not think anywhere in the UK was overwhelmed either, much as it would have suited your agenda had it been

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I don't know what you're talking about, I have always regarded Northern Ireland as a country but within the bigger union of the UK.
I do not think anywhere in the UK was overwhelmed either, much as it would have suited your agenda had it been

You call it a country. Most dont’t. It’s not an agenda. We always hear about the nhs in every debate about north and south and when it really mattered it was left under prepared by an incompetent pm. The north is not a hub of travel unlike London or Dublin and has numbers the same as here when adjusted for population. Your economy is also no where near the multinational one we have.

It was you who raised health service in this thread so it is you that has the agenda. Of course the answer didn’t fit your narrative.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

You call it a country. Most dont’t. It’s not an agenda. We always hear about the nhs in every debate about north and south and when it really mattered it was left under prepared by an incompetent pm. The north is not a hub of travel unlike London or Dublin and has numbers the same as here when adjusted for population. Your economy is also no where near the multinational one we have.

It was you who raised health service in this thread so it is you that has the agenda. Of course the answer didn’t fit your narrative.

Lol. Yous went on for weeks here about how the north would be devastated compared to roi with covid. I said let’s just wait and see as I didn’t think so.

Last time I looked London had a better r figure than Dublin. I had also said you were rushing to conclusions and we’d need a few years to see how it panned out.
Think I am being proved right

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Well I think you are wrong there, only my opinion but I do not think most would take it.
You have a very skewed opinion of the 12th.
The vast majority of people who go to the 12th, go because it is an opportunity to meet up with the people they were reared with. Communities come back to their roots. Many people who grew up along with me, the only time I see them is the 12th.
I know you are infatuated with the Battle of the Boyne and 1690, but for almost everyone attending the 12, it is a family event, ice cream and bouncy castles. Growing up I remember we always got new clothes for going to the 12th. For most kids in Northern Ireland who attend the 12th, they will rate it and the 11th night as number one with Christmas a close number two.
I don't know anyone who heads out to the 12th to upset anyone or with any sense of triumphalism, it's just a great time of family reunion.

I know the picture you are interested in painting, but it really is far from reality. the 12 July and the whole marching season, apart from tiny exceptions, is funded out of the pockets of those taking part. It has not required money thrown at to ensure it remains valuable to our community. It is just a special time that we all enjoy, and will continue to attend.
Irish language on the other hand receives masses of funding to try and keep it relevant to the tiny minority of people who take it seriously.
I actually believe that genuine culture requires no funding. Once funding is applied to culture, then those that hold the purse strings are directing it, and deciding what they would like people to follow. If a culture is worth maintaining it certainly does not need money. If a community decided that they will not maintain a culture without money, then it is best that community decides what they are interested in and moves on.

Well, firstly I am not painting any picture to do with finances. You claimed before that you think the 12th July and Irish Language should be treated equally. As the 12th is an officially recognised holiday in NI, then logically Irish would need to be also recognised officially to be equal, yet that is what Unionists are opposed to.

You can protray the 12th as a happy, clappy family event all you want, but there is a subtext or undertone that is inherently Sectarian. Of cousre you would think what you think, but if you went and explained the full history/subtext of the 12th/OO to any average person not familiar with the 12th, they would label it as sectarian straight away. As I have asked before, can you or anyone name any other organisation/event similar to the 12th/OO around the world. If Unionists had switched to celebrating something like the Act of Union or Creation of NI, it may not have appeased the Republicans, but it would have been a lot less sinister than the 12th/OO.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Lol. Yous went on for weeks here about how the north would be devastated compared to roi with covid. I said let’s just wait and see as I didn’t think so.

Last time I looked London had a better r figure than Dublin. I had also said you were rushing to conclusions and we’d need a few years to see how it panned out.
Think I am being proved right

Good lord...lies with gloating.

addaword

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

You can potray the 12th as a happy, clappy family event all you want, but there is a subtext or undertone that is inherently Sectarian.

Our own church has been a bit sectarian itself Father. It is not compulsory for anyone to watch a parade on the 12th.

Fr D Maugire

addaword wrote: »

Our own church has been a bit sectarian itself Father. It is not compulsory for anyone to watch a parade on the 12th.

I don't belong to any church thank you very much. Personally, religion is just nonsense to me and it makes me sad to see how much conflict it has caused and continues to cause. I respect people if they want to believe in a religion, but believe it should be a personal matter and not relevant to public affairs and that includes Catholics in Ireland. All religions tried to persecute other religions during the 16-19th Centuries. I find the 12th troublesome, because it celebrates a Battle from that period of religious intolerance and whilst religious intolerance has mostly been left behind, it is still the basis of the OO/12th July Celebrations. Those kind of events/groups belong in the past, regardless of religion.

My issue with Unionists is not that they are Protestant or British, but that they rebuffed ever single attempt to share power with Catholic's, even when it involved staying in the Union. Democracy, equality, liberty are all ideals that are valued around the World, but Unionists have been perpetually opposed to those ideas right throughout their history.

addaword

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

My issue with Unionists is not that they are Protestant or British, but that they rebuffed ever single attempt to share power with Catholic's,.

What absolute brainwashed rubbish you come out with. Do they not share power with Sinn Fein? That is more than some politicians here are willing to do.

Fr D Maugire

addaword wrote: »

What absolute brainwashed rubbish you come out with. Do they not share power with Sinn Fein? That is more than some politicians here are willing to do.

I meant in a historical context. They are power sharing now after how many years of pushing and coercion and violence, yet it is a very fragile structure which we have seen, will it last? who knows Despite what you might think, I am not coming at this from a Catholic, Republican or Nationalist viewpoint. I do not belong to any of those groups. I look at this from a secular historical viewpoint. It is just clear that Unionists have been reluctant to move past any idea of a Protestant domination over the people they shared this Island and now state with.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

You can protray the 12th as a happy, clappy family event all you want, but there is a subtext or undertone that is inherently Sectarian. Of cousre you would think what you think, but if you went and explained the full history/subtext of the 12th/OO to any average person not familiar with the 12th, they would label it as sectarian straight away. As I have asked before, can you or anyone name any other organisation/event similar to the 12th/OO around the world. If Unionists had switched to celebrating something like the Act of Union or Creation of NI, it may not have appeased the Republicans, but it would have been a lot less sinister than the 12th/OO.

Bastille day, 4th July, etc. Even Greek celebrations of battles 2,500 years ago.
I am also not sure what you see as sectarian about the battle of the Boyne. My history is not great but I understood it was the victory of democracy over absolute monarchy. Something I would think most sane people would celebrate as very positive.

The problem with the purpose of the 12th is all in your head. I don’t know anyone who goes to the 12th with your mentality or thinking. They go for the craic, the spectacle, and to meet up with friends. I would guess it’s the same in 4th July I can’t imagine many Americans are celebrating their hate for the British.

There are/were certainly issues around less than half a dozen of the many hundreds of parades that take place that day. We could argue about why less than 1% of the parades are an issue but that’s a different issue.

And to tell a community what YOU think they should celebrate is a laugh :-)

Runaways

10-15 years

We would put protection and preservation orders on beautiful old buildings even if they aren’t historic and often spend millions doing them up and restoring them so language is even more important than that

That shouldn’t be too hard for you to grasp DC

A perfectly timed and very informative thread we should all have a look at

https://twitter.com/dreamdearg/status/1261239179536748544?s=21

eagle eye

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

The Irish language is heritage only. It'll never be the spoken language again.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bastille day, 4th July, etc. Even Greek celebrations of battles 2,500 years ago.
I am also not sure what you see as sectarian about the battle of the Boyne. My history is not great but I understood it was the victory of democracy over absolute monarchy. Something I would think most sane people would celebrate as very positive.

The problem with the purpose of the 12th is all in your head. I don’t know anyone who goes to the 12th with your mentality or thinking. They go for the craic, the spectacle, and to meet up with friends. I would guess it’s the same in 4th July I can’t imagine many Americans are celebrating their hate for the British.

There are/were certainly issues around less than half a dozen of the many hundreds of parades that take place that day. We could argue about why less than 1% of the parades are an issue but that’s a different issue.

And to tell a community what YOU think they should celebrate is a laugh :-)

The reason there is no problem with parades is that they take place in areas were they can be avoided by the other community. That is the bottom line here.
That took work and commitment from the Commission the Orange Order still bitterly refuses to recognise.
An Order that still wants to parade (and tried sneakily to use it as a bargaining chip) where it isn't wanted.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The reason there is no problem with parades is that they take place in areas were they can be avoided by the other community. That is the bottom line here.
That took work and commitment from the Commission the Orange Order still bitterly refuses to recognise.
An Order that still wants to parade (and tried sneakily to use it as a bargaining chip) where it isn't wanted.

It took until the Garvaghy road and 3 little children dying for the govt to finally stop these marches in areas not wanted unless agreement reached. There was nothing fun or family like about the OO trying to show their power back then. Thankfully those days are gone never to return.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Bastille day, 4th July, etc. Even Greek celebrations of battles 2,500 years ago.
I am also not sure what you see as sectarian about the battle of the Boyne. My history is not great but I understood it was the victory of democracy over absolute monarchy. Something I would think most sane people would celebrate as very positive.

The problem with the purpose of the 12th is all in your head. I don’t know anyone who goes to the 12th with your mentality or thinking. They go for the craic, the spectacle, and to meet up with friends. I would guess it’s the same in 4th July I can’t imagine many Americans are celebrating their hate for the British.

There are/were certainly issues around less than half a dozen of the many hundreds of parades that take place that day. We could argue about why less than 1% of the parades are an issue but that’s a different issue.

And to tell a community what YOU think they should celebrate is a laugh :-)

Yeah, nobody is going to buy that Unionists do not know the significance of the 12th or why they are celebrating it. The 12th is the opposite of Bastille Day/4th July. Bastille celebrates the overthrow of the Monarchy, establishment of the Republic on the ideals of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. 4th of July celebrates the 13 colonies breaking away from Britain to get away from British mismanagement and establish their own Country on the ideals of The fabled Constitution, religious freedom, democracry etc. How well that was implemented is debatable.

The 12th does not celebrate democracry over Royal power, that was Cromwell and the English Civil War, but that was clouded in religious intolerance as learned by Irish Catholics. King James was the rightful heir to the British crown, but was Catholic and thus gave concessions to Catholics who had been persecuted. The Protestant Parliament didn't like that and asked King William to unseat James and take the crown. Long story short, William defeated James at the Boyne who then fled, but thst was not the decisive Battle which was at Aughrim. This is the one that the bonfires were lit for, as still continued in 12th celebrations, but because of a change in calendar and the fact that William was not at Aughrim, the OO chose to celebrate the Boyne. The final Battle was the Siege of Limerick, which ended in a truce(Treaty of Limerick) in which William's commander agreed to allow the Catholic soldiers to leave Ireland, provided freedom of religious practice and for Catholics to keep their lands. The Protestant Parliament of Ireland, then proceeded to completely ignore the Treaty and instead introduced the Penal Laws persecuting Catholics and other smaller religions like Presbyterians, the reason so many left for North America was to escape religious persecution in Ireland. The Protestant Parliament wanted to ensure the dominance of the minority Religion(Protestants) over the majority(Catholics) and that is what the12th/OO celebrates.

Imagine the whites in South Africa celebrating Apartheid and you are closer to what the 12th/OO commemorates. The ideals of Bastille Day and Independence day are what inspired the leaders of the 1798 Rebellion as it occurred not so long after those events, and most of the rebellions in the 19th century were along the same lines. A wish for an end to inequality, religious intolerance and a move toward equality and a shared peaceful society whether as an Independent nation or as part of the UK. But like I said, the minority Protestants were totally oppossed to those ideals and revelled in their continued dominance over Catholics, thus the OO/12th July.

You may dispute these facts of course, but the reality is that the 12th has been enveloped in conflict from the start and was even banned for a period because of its sectarianism. As a Unionist, you are are either playing dumb or totally ignorant of your own heritage. I asked you before for a Unionist history viewpoint, so go right aheac if you so wish.

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

It took until the Garvaghy road and 3 little children dying for the govt to finally stop these marches in areas not wanted unless agreement reached. There was nothing fun or family like about the OO trying to show their power back then. Thankfully those days are gone never to return.

Well the OO showed that they are still hankering to get back to the old days during the DUP's little dalliance with power. So sadly the Parades Commission still has to exist.

Runaways

10-15 years

eagle eye wrote: »

The Irish language is heritage only. It'll never be the spoken language again.

Stonehenge will never be used as the pagan gathering place to celebrate the solstice ever again

Let’s knock it down its pointless

PS Irish Is older by far Than Stonehenge

Also new Grange predates that but a few thousand years

jm08

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Bastille day, 4th July, etc. Even Greek celebrations of battles 2,500 years ago.
I am also not sure what you see as sectarian about the battle of the Boyne. My history is not great but I understood it was the victory of democracy over absolute monarchy. Something I would think most sane people would celebrate as very positive.

The problem with the purpose of the 12th is all in your head. I don’t know anyone who goes to the 12th with your mentality or thinking. They go for the craic, the spectacle, and to meet up with friends. I would guess it’s the same in 4th July I can’t imagine many Americans are celebrating their hate for the British.

There are/were certainly issues around less than half a dozen of the many hundreds of parades that take place that day. We could argue about why less than 1% of the parades are an issue but that’s a different issue.

And to tell a community what YOU think they should celebrate is a laugh :-)

The Battle of the Boyne as far as Ireland is concerned was a European power struggle fought in Ireland.



The Catholics supported James II because he promised religious freedom to everyone and a right to Irish self-determination.



William was supported by Protestants because he would maintain protestant rule in Ireland. Strangely enough, Rome supported William because they were nervous of James' ally Louis XIV of France who was challenging the Papacy.


Now, can you explain to me what the connection is to democracy as all countries involved were monarchies.


John Creedon has made some great documentaries journeying around Ireland. One of them was in Northern Ireland around the time of the 12th. He met with the Orange Order and was a guest of theirs at a parade - all very pleasant and civil.



Having watched the parade and well taken care of by the OO, after he just said that he felt uneasy and intimidated by it. The journalist Naomi O'Leary (now at the Irish Times) who on her podcast The Irish Passport, said something similar when they did a podcast on the 12th July celebrations.