How long before Irish reunification?

Fr D Maugire

Runaways wrote: »

Stonehenge will never be used as the pagan gathering place to celebrate the solstice ever again

Let’s knock it down its pointless

PS Irish Is older by far Than Stonehenge

Also new Grange predates that but a few thousand years

I don't think the Irish Language is older than Stonehenge, I mean the earliest recorded evidence for Irish is the 5th/6th Century Ogham Stones so to place it thousands of years earlier seems a stretch. I think it fair to claim Irish is older than many modern Languages including English.

Runaways

10-15 years

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I don't think the Irish Language is older than Stonehenge, I mean the earliest recorded evidence for Irish is the 5th/6th Century Ogham Stones so to place it thousands of years earlier seems a stretch. I think it fair to claim Irish is older than many modern Languages including English.

It would’ve had the same roots though

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Yeah, nobody is going to buy that Unionists do not know the significance of the 12th or why they are celebrating it. The 12th is the opposite of Bastille Day/4th July. Bastille celebrates the overthrow of the Monarchy, establishment of the Republic on the ideals of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. 4th of July celebrates the 13 colonies breaking away from Britain to get away from British mismanagement and establish their own Country on the ideals of The fabled Constitution, religious freedom, democracry etc. How well that was implemented is debatable.

The 12th does not celebrate democracry over Royal power, that was Cromwell and the English Civil War, but that was clouded in religious intolerance as learned by Irish Catholics. King James was the rightful heir to the British crown, but was Catholic and thus gave concessions to Catholics who had been persecuted. The Protestant Parliament didn't like that and asked King William to unseat James and take the crown. Long story short, William defeated James at the Boyne who then fled, but thst was not the decisive Battle which was at Aughrim. This is the one that the bonfires were lit for, as still continued in 12th celebrations, but because of a change in calendar and the fact that William was not at Aughrim, the OO chose to celebrate the Boyne. The final Battle was the Siege of Limerick, which ended in a truce(Treaty of Limerick) in which William's commander agreed to allow the Catholic soldiers to leave Ireland, provided freedom of religious practice and for Catholics to keep their lands. The Protestant Parliament of Ireland, then proceeded to completely ignore the Treaty and instead introduced the Penal Laws persecuting Catholics and other smaller religions like Presbyterians, the reason so many left for North America was to escape religious persecution in Ireland. The Protestant Parliament wanted to ensure the dominance of the minority Religion(Protestants) over the majority(Catholics) and that is what the12th/OO celebrates.

Imagine the whites in South Africa celebrating Apartheid and you are closer to what the 12th/OO commemorates. The ideals of Bastille Day and Independence day are what inspired the leaders of the 1798 Rebellion as it occurred not so long after those events, and most of the rebellions in the 19th century were along the same lines. A wish for an end to inequality, religious intolerance and a move toward equality and a shared peaceful society whether as an Independent nation or as part of the UK. But like I said, the minority Protestants were totally oppossed to those ideals and revelled in their continued dominance over Catholics, thus the OO/12th July.

You may dispute these facts of course, but the reality is that the 12th has been enveloped in conflict from the start and was even banned for a period because of its sectarianism. As a Unionist, you are are either playing dumb or totally ignorant of your own heritage. I asked you before for a Unionist history viewpoint, so go right aheac if you so wish.

Your facts are more that a little fiction. The glorious revolution should be celebrated by any right thinking democrat. Even the pope of the time celebrated with us
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/british-history/glorious-revolution

MadraGlas

20-30 years

Maybe Ireland and the UK could share the north... We take it for 6 months of the year and the UK have it for the other 6! Would make the nationalists happier then they are now and the unionists a little less happy but it will mean they are all almost as happy as each other and that's all that matters. That they are all happy together and not blowing each other up over little petty differences such as who loves the queen or who speaks Gaeilge!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Your facts are more that a little fiction. The glorious revolution should be celebrated by any right thinking democrat. Even the pope of the time celebrated with us
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/british-history/glorious-revolution

Right thinking democrats that ran a bigoted sectarian state that eventually went up in flames? Those kind of democrats?

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Your facts are more that a little fiction. The glorious revolution should be celebrated by any right thinking democrat. Even the pope of the time celebrated with us
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/british-history/glorious-revolution

You realise you linked me an article that does not mention the Battle of the Boyne or it's impact on Ireland once. Most of my facts are included in that article, well those related to the Crown are, as there is no mention of Ireland. All the article really says is that it helped Britain move from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy which was hardly grounbreaking. The American and French revolutions were the events that shook the world and set the template for democracy. Note how the US and France do not have monarchs, but Britain still does. Even in the article it notes how Catholics were not allowed to be the Monarch, hardly the groundbreaking democracy you imagine it to be.

Though you think this to be major, it had little real impact in Ireland, an Anti-Catholic Monarch or Anti-Catholic Parliament in Britain made little difference. It was the Irish Parliament that ruled Ireland. You can be sure that is not why the Protestants supported William either, they just didnt want to see a Catholic King who might grant more freedom to Catholics. As I pointed out, the Irish Parliament simply ignored the Peace Treaty and started to persecute Catholics more than ever. But yes, they were fighting for democracy at the Battle of the Boyne...

Keep dreaming Downcow.

RobMc59

10-15 years

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I don't belong to any church thank you very much. Personally, religion is just nonsense to me and it makes me sad to see how much conflict it has caused and continues to cause. I respect people if they want to believe in a religion, but believe it should be a personal matter and not relevant to public affairs and that includes Catholics in Ireland. All religions tried to persecute other religions during the 16-19th Centuries. I find the 12th troublesome, because it celebrates a Battle from that period of religious intolerance and whilst religious intolerance has mostly been left behind, it is still the basis of the OO/12th July Celebrations. Those kind of events/groups belong in the past, regardless of religion.

My issue with Unionists is not that they are Protestant or British, but that they rebuffed ever single attempt to share power with Catholic's, even when it involved staying in the Union. Democracy, equality, liberty are all ideals that are valued around the World, but Unionists have been perpetually opposed to those ideas right throughout their history.

I have`nt got any problems with the Catholic Church but it has pillaged and subjugated many countries throughout history and is probably the worst religious faction to do this.

Runaways

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have`nt got any problems with the Catholic Church but it has pillaged and subjugated many countries throughout history and is probably the worst religious faction to do this.

Siri show the poster in question the history of the British Empire

Fr D Maugire

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have`nt got any problems with the Catholic Church but it has pillaged and subjugated many countries throughout history and is probably the worst religious faction to do this.

Well that might be relevant if we were talking about the rest of the world, but we are talking about Ireland. It is included in my post that I do not care for any religion, but lets keep this in conext here.

Oh and most of what you mention, to which I assume primarily refers to the Americas occurred in the 16th century before any other christian religions had formed so technically that would include all christians.

Is it not strange, that rather than trying to mount some sort of defence of OO/12th, you are creating strawmen by bringing in Catholic atrocities from around the World.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Though you think this to be major, it had little real impact in Ireland,
.

Lol. You go on about how awful it is to celebrate something that was so terrible for Ireland and then you say this above

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Lol. You go on about how awful it is to celebrate something that was so terrible for Ireland and then you say this above

I was referring to the change from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy, not the Battle of the Boyne or subsequent events. A Protestant King or Parliament was a variation of the same theme for Catholics, it didnt make much difference which had more power. On the other hand a Catholic King might have granted religious freedom, thus why that period is significant in Irish history.

addaword

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

On the other hand a Catholic King might have granted religious freedom, thus why that period is significant in Irish history.

Catholic Kings were worse for granting religious freedom, look at the Spanish inquisition for example which persecuted hundreds of thousands, including some who were tortured under worst torture imaginable and killed.

BonnieSituation

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I was not born in Britain, nor do I live in Britain. I was born and live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
I am just not sure which bit of this you do not understand. Anyone born in the United Kingdom is British. If you are born in the Northern Irish bit then the ROI government have kindly guaranteed, that if you request it, they will provide you with an Irish passport.

We can be either nationality, but our default position is British.

That's funny...

Brendan Bendar

kneemos wrote: »

A Scottish/NI union back in the EU is more likely.

Ireland doesn't want the North anyway.

Correct, who wants ‘marches’ and ‘commemorations’ every second day.

Sorry folks, need to grow up first.

Redgirl82

eagle eye wrote: »

The Irish language is heritage only. It'll never be the spoken language again.

Really? Irish schools have never been more popular. Our local one can’t keep up with demand. They have increased to two classes per year and call to extend school to allow 3, this is replicated all over Ireland.

Redgirl82

Irish people don’t want the North. It’s a disaster and we couldn’t afford it. Between Sinn Fein and DUP the place is a mess, they are kept afloat by the UK government pumping money into it. 30% of population work in public sector, Bombardier is the biggest company and it sold up recently. Leave it, it’s just a wasps nest and leave someone sort it out because the Northern Parties never will

Brendan Bendar

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Irish people don’t want the North. It’s a disaster and we couldn’t afford it. Between Sinn Fein and DUP the place is a mess, they are kept afloat by the UK government pumping money into it. 30% of population work in public sector, Bombardier is the biggest company and it sold up recently. Leave it, it’s just a wasps nest and leave someone sort it out because the Northern Parties never will

100% correct.

blinding

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Irish people don’t want the North. It’s a disaster and we couldn’t afford it. Between Sinn Fein and DUP the place is a mess, they are kept afloat by the UK government pumping money into it. 30% of population work in public sector, Bombardier is the biggest company and it sold up recently. Leave it, it’s just a wasps nest and leave someone sort it out because the Northern Parties never will

The North is Irish People.

Redgirl82

blinding wrote: »

The North is Irish People.

Not according to the people who live in Northern Ireland

The question of national identity[2] was asked in the 2011 census with the three most common identities given being British, Northern Irish and Irish.

Personally I would always call them Northern Irish. Calling them Irish is not correct, do you not think so?

RobMc59

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Not according to the people who live in Northern Ireland

The question of national identity[2] was asked in the 2011 census with the three most common identities given being British, Northern Irish and Irish.

Personally I would always call them Northern Irish. Calling them Irish is not correct, do you not think so?

You shouldn't say things like that,the inhabitants of 'la la land ' will spit their soothers out! :-)

Redgirl82

RobMc59 wrote: »

You shouldn't say things like that,the inhabitants of 'la la land ' will spit their soothers out! :-)

They carried out a census, hard to argue with that but I suppose some people will.....

Redgirl82

Deleted User wrote: »

There irish,if they wish so,as per the gfa and recent court cases


But sure,why let facts get in way of ill-informed flaming

Do you understand what a census is?

Redgirl82

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes?

Do you understand significance of a peace treaty lodged at the UN....which is of a higher value legally?

Grasping at straws as usual. They carried out a census in 2011 and asked the people of Northern Ireland as per my quote above

They are not “Irish”. The people have spoke. Your going to argue and tell someone they have to call themselves irish because you want them to be?

Redgirl82

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes?

Do you understand significance of a peace treaty lodged at the UN....which is of a higher value legally?


Your free to call people there northern irish all yous want,indeed head up about cappagh and let me know how that geos for you btw

Its just NI isnt a country,nor deos it issue passports.....its just quiet poor flaming by you (as usual) and a 2 year old can see through it

Ninja edit by you. You are arguing against a census. Not me, but the people of Northern Ireland and your telling them your right and they are wrong? How does that work?

Redgirl82

15-20 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Ninja edit by you. You are arguing against a census. Not me, but the people of Northern Ireland and your telling them your right and they are wrong? How does that work?

As ive said....go about NI and tell them,they arent irish?

Like legally a NI citizenship,deosnt exist....you get this right?

Hamsterchops

The people of Northern Ireland (UK) are British or Irish, they can be Irish or British, Irish (in a British context), Northern Irish and not just Irish, or just Irish, full stop. British & proud, European or not, they are whatever they say they are. Two passports handed out in NI, British by default, or Irish if you want, or both should you desire

Still debating Northern Nationality & citizenship after all these pages, oh no they're not (British) oh yes they are, no they're not (Irish) oh yes they are, oh no they're not, oh yes they are . . . .

Can we really tell them what they are!

I'm off for a coffee, hope I don't miss anything

Redgirl82

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmm...except im.not....like your free to claim.the gfa is insignificant...but your near alone in that view



Legally they are irish (or british),quiet why your trying to argue otherwise is beyond me,you havnt a leg to stand on here

So your saying they are not Irish? They can be british or irish. Like I said

So you just confirmed what I said was right and they are not Irish. Legally

You a little confused this morning?

Fr D Maugire

addaword wrote: »

Catholic Kings were worse for granting religious freedom, look at the Spanish inquisition for example which persecuted hundreds of thousands, including some who were tortured under worst torture imaginable and killed.

I can only assume you are deliberately ignoring things I write, because the following is in a previous post of mine that you then quoted from....

"I don't belong to any church thank you very much. Personally, religion is just nonsense to me and it makes me sad to see how much conflict it has caused and continues to cause. I respect people if they want to believe in a religion, but believe it should be a personal matter and not relevant to public affairs and that includes Catholics in Ireland. All religions tried to persecute other religions during the 16-19th Centuries. I find the 12th troublesome, because it celebrates a Battle from that period of religious intolerance and whilst religious intolerance has mostly been left behind, it is still the basis of the OO/12th July Celebrations. Those kind of events/groups belong in the past, regardless of religion"

My issue is not that it happened, but why it is still celebrated in a modern society. I have asked before and never received an answer, is there any other Event in the World that has religious intolerance at it's core and is celebrated as a "cultural event". Yes, Downcow and other Unionists will claim it is a family and community day out, that it doesn't mean offence to anyone, but that is kind of hollow when King William is displayed everywhere and the bonfires are going. The fact the OO(No Catholics allowed) are the main organisers also reinforces the intolerance part.

Redgirl82

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The people of Northern Ireland (UK) are British or Irish, they can be Irish or British, Irish (in a British context), Northern Irish and not just Irish, it just Irish, full stop! British & proud, European or not, they are whatever they say they are. Two passports handed out in NI, British by default, or Irish if you want, of both should you desire

Still debating Northern Nationality & citizenship after all these pages, oh no they're not (British) oh yes they are, no they're not (Irish) oh yes they are, oh no they're not, oh yes they are . . . .

Can we really tell them what they are!

I'm off for a coffee, hope I don't miss anything

Exactly, as they said in the census.

Redgirl82

Deleted User wrote: »

I didnt say this in the post
(Like seriously its there for all to see)




Only one confused here is you it seems

Read my post again

Not according to the people who live in Northern Ireland

The question of national identity[2] was asked in the 2011 census with the three most common identities given being British, Northern Irish and Irish.

Personally I would always call them Northern Irish. Calling them Irish is not correct, do you not think so?

You just said legally they can be British or Irish. That was your last post which confirms what I posted and what the people of norther Ireland put in the census. They also included northern irish as option

So please please tell me how you think that people in Northern Ireland are “Irish” because they are not, they are Irish, Northern Irish and British.