How long before Irish reunification?

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

All I am saying is that call everyone in Northern Ireland "Irish" is incorrect. As per the census they say they are Irish, Northern Irish and British.

No it's not incorrect to call people in the north Irish. Nationality isn't a political terms. Everyone born in Ireland, north or south, is Irish, whether they accept it or not. Nationhood is not determined on political boundaries. Just as someone in Scotland is Scottish.

In terms of citizenship people in Scotland are British. In the north, either Irish or British.

People may self-identify a "Northern Irish" but it is not a nationality, as there is no nation called Northern Ireland. Infact, it's the antithesis to what a nation is.

As for the census, it's based on self identification. You can put down Jedi ffs. If I self identify as Italian, does it make it so?

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No it's not incorrect to call people in the north Irish. Nationality isn't a political terms. Everyone born in Ireland, north or south, is Irish, whether they accept it or not. Nationhood is not determined on political boundaries. Just as someone in Scotland is Scottish.

In terms of citizenship people in Scotland are British. In the north, either Irish or British.

People may self-identify a "Northern Irish" but it is not a nationality, as there is no nation called Northern Ireland. Infact, it's the antithesis to what a nation is.

As for the census, it's based on self identification. You can put down Jedi ffs. If I self identify as Italian, does it make it so?

I said this before, you have to choose your identity...whether it be Irish, British or Martian.
You have to tell people what that is if it disagrees with what you look and sound like.

I.E. If a person from northern Ireland goes to England they will be assumed to be 'Irish', quite naturally.
They will have to tell that English person that they identify as British.
Same goes, quite naturally for a person from England coming to Ireland, they will be assumed to be English/British until they say they identify as Irish...some famous examples of this.

addaword

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Everyone born in Ireland, north or south, is Irish, whether they accept it or not.

Would you say, because the British Isles is the correct geographical term for these islands, that everyone born on these islands is British?

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

addaword wrote: »

Would you say, because the British Isles is the correct geographical term for these islands, that everyone born on these islands is British?

No. Is the British Isles a nation

FrancieBrady

addaword wrote: »

Would you say, because the British Isles is the correct geographical term for these islands, that everyone born on these islands is British?

Insisting on calling it the 'British Isles' in these post colonial times is as big an indicator of your political fealities as the flag you wave is. It's an outdated term no longer used politically or by anyone trying to be accurate.

For this reason, the name British Isles is avoided by some, as such usage could be construed to imply continued territorial claims or political overlordship of the Republic of Ireland by the United Kingdom.[3][4][5][6][7]

More neutral proposed alternatives for the British Isles include "Britain and Ireland",[3][8][9] "Atlantic Archipelago",[10] "Anglo-Celtic Isles",[11][12] the "British-Irish Isles"[13] and the Islands of the North Atlantic.[14] In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands".[15]

Hamsterchops

addaword wrote: »

Would you say, because the British Isles is the correct geographical term for these islands, that everyone born on these islands is British?

Only ever in the strictest geographical terms.

Weather related yes, people related No.

Ones National identity has nothing to do with the geographical location of this archipelago.

intellectual dosser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said this before, you have to choose your identity...whether it be Irish, British or Martian.
You have to tell people what that is if it disagrees with what you look and sound like.

I.E. If a person from northern Ireland goes to England they will be assumed to be 'Irish', quite naturally.
They will have to tell that English person that they identify as British.
Same goes, quite naturally for a person from England coming to Ireland, they will be assumed to be English/British until they say they identify as Irish...some famous examples of this.

The people of Northern Ireland can identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both.

The reality is that when they meet an Englishman on the street they don't have to tell him anything.

jm08

20-30 years

addaword wrote: »

So what...a Protestant cannot join the Catholic church or Opus Dei or the Knights.

They can if they want to! For example, Tony Blair!


The Orange Order is not a church by the way.

jm08

20-30 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Seemingly not, a census result is not enough evidence either.... :-)

By its very nature, census are just a snapshot on a particular date. Thats why they have them every couple of years. Bearing in mind what has happened over the last 9 years, a lot probably will have changed.

blinding

10-15 years

intellectual dosser wrote: »

The people of Northern Ireland can identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both.

The reality is that when they meet an Englishman on the street they don't have to tell him anything.

He already knows they are a Paddy or Biddy !;)

FrancieBrady

intellectual dosser wrote: »

The people of Northern Ireland can identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both.

Absolutely, nobody has an issue with what they identify as.

The reality is that when they meet an Englishman on the street they don't have to tell him anything.

Of course you don't have to...in which case you can be anything you want. It doesn't fecking matter if it is a private thing. :rolleyes:

jm08

20-30 years

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

As for Catholic Church insisting children be brought up Catholic, I dont doubt it existed but in my lifetime at least, was not too seriously implemented. I lived in a pretty mixed area growing up and in general children in mixed marriages were brought up whatever way the parents determined, sometimes Catholic only, sometimes Protestant only and sometimes the religion would match the gender of the parent. I think it depended more on how stongly each parent felt about their religion.

Two of my friends are in mixed marriages and the kids were brought up as protestant, mainly to have access to protestant schools because they had smaller classes!

intellectual dosser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Absolutely, nobody has an issue with what they identify as.



Of course you don't have to...in which case you can be anything you want. It doesn't fecking matter if it is a private thing. :rolleyes:

You stated that people must choose and tell people of their choice, but the GFA implies that they don't have to at all. They can be citizens of Northern Ireland and just get on with their lives.

downcow

addaword wrote: »

Rubbish. You are still denigrating the other side. Would you not say Irish rugby matches are"Irish in nature" Yet they go to those do they not?



So what...a Protestant cannot join the Catholic church or Opus Dei or the Knights. So what? There are two sides in it. And when the 2 sides meet and want to get married, remember in the 20th century it was the Catholic church which forced the offspring of such marriages to be brought up Catholic. It was the Catholic church which was the most bitter and uncompromising.
Time you realised our own side was as bad if not worse than "them uns".

Yip. We have organisations and institutions on both sides which have a bit to travel.
Am I correct that I cannot take communion as a Protestant in a Catholic Church. Yet if you attend communion in a Protestant church you will be invited to join in in communion and the decision to partake is entirely your personal decision

FrancieBrady

intellectual dosser wrote: »

You stated that people must choose and tell people of their choice, but the GFA implies that they don't have to at all. They can be citizens of Northern Ireland and just get on with their lives.

You have to make a choice at some point...if people ask you.
If nobody 'asks' you there is no issue.

What I am saying, you will be assumed to be Irish (because you are born on the landmass known as Ireland) until you make your identity known. That may be Irish, British or N. Irish.
Same of those born in England who identify as Irish.

Fr D Maugire

jm08 wrote: »

They can if they want to! For example, Tony Blair!


The Orange Order is not a church by the way.

There is a lot of whataboutery going on at this stage.

Thing is you don't need to belong to one side or other to make a call on these things.

I don't need to be an Arab or a Jew to say think the Arabs got screwed on the promise of an pan-Arab nation in the Middle East after WWI.

I don't need to be American White or Black to think the Ku Klux Klan were racist or a deplorable organisation.

Pick me anywhere in the world, tell me how a minority population lorded it over the majority and refused any attempts at democracy, and I will have the same impression of unfairness.

downcow

blinding wrote: »

Didn’t the Scots have the chance to Vote themselves to be an Independent Country and they turned it down. They can hardly claim to be an Independent Country. They should Re-Name the Place North-England ! !:eek::eek:

So are you telling us now that the your rules don’t apply to the English? So they do exist? Even though the can’t issue passports etc?

So just explain why English exist and Scots and northern Irish don’t? What about the welsh, do you allow them to exist?

downcow

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No it's not incorrect to call people in the north Irish. Nationality isn't a political terms. Everyone born in Ireland, north or south, is Irish, whether they accept it or not. Nationhood is not determined on political boundaries. Just as someone in Scotland is Scottish.

In terms of citizenship people in Scotland are British. In the north, either Irish or British.

People may self-identify a "Northern Irish" but it is not a nationality, as there is no nation called Northern Ireland. Infact, it's the antithesis to what a nation is.

As for the census, it's based on self identification. You can put down Jedi ffs. If I self identify as Italian, does it make it so?

So you are telling me I am Irish even though I was born in the uk, always lived in uk and have a british passport? You really couldn’t make it up. Serious insecurity expressed there by you

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

So you are telling me I am Irish even though I was born in the uk, always lived in uk and have a british passport? You really couldn’t make it up. Serious insecurity expressed there by you

What part of the UK?

Insecurity? I couldn't care less what you identify as really

blinding

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

So are you telling us now that the your rules don’t apply to the English? So they do exist? Even though the can’t issue passports etc?

So just explain why English exist and Scots and northern Irish don’t? What about the welsh, do you allow them to exist?

After the Scots failed to Vote to become an Independent Country. England should have been expanded so that all of Scotland became North England.

I mean if you fail to Vote yourself to become an Independent Country when given the Chance you can hardly call yourself a Country ! Come on :eek::eek:

blinding

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

So you are telling me I am Irish even though I was born in the uk, always lived in uk and have a british passport? You really couldn’t make it up. Serious insecurity expressed there by you

You are Irish British or British Irish if you insist !

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So you are telling me I am Irish even though I was born in the uk, always lived in uk and have a british passport? You really couldn’t make it up. Serious insecurity expressed there by you

You were born on the island of Ireland. Whether that is owned by the UK or The McDonald corporation the island is still Ireland. Even the British recognised that when they first colonised. They called it; The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

Which recognises that it was a different island. The citizens of GB still see it that way.

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

So you are telling me I am Irish even though I was born in the uk, always lived in uk and have a british passport? You really couldn’t make it up. Serious insecurity expressed there by you

If Scotland had hypothetically been partitioned into a northern and southern Scotland after the referendum, with southern Scotland remaining in the UK, would that mean Scottish in the south were all of a sudden no longer Scottish?

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If Scotland had hypothetically been partitioned into a northern and southern Scotland after the referendum, with southern Scotland remaining in the UK, would that mean Scottish in the south were all of a sudden no longer Scottish?

blinding

10-15 years

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If Scotland had hypothetically been partitioned into a northern and southern Scotland after the referendum, with southern Scotland remaining in the UK, would that mean Scottish in the south were all of a sudden no longer Scottish?

Game, Set, Match !:D

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Even the British recognised that when they first colonised. They called it; The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

Which recognises that it was a different island. The citizens of GB still see it that way.

...and we still and always will be the neighbouring island to Great Britain, with just twelve miles seperating the two, there's much more connecting us as group of islands than seperating us....

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...and it still and always will be the neighbouring island to Great Britain, with just twelve miles seperating the two, there's much more connecting us as group of islands than seperating us....

Again...who disagrees with this simple reality HC?

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again...who disagrees with this simple reality HC?

What I'm saying is that we're all connected on this little group of islands, and that whether one is British or Irish, there is so much overlap within these islands as to make black & white statements like "You're Irish" and we're Britis as good as useless. People identify within these islands as to their own feelings of Irishness or Britishness.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What I'm saying is that we're all connected on this little group of islands, and that whether one is British or Irish, there is so much overlap within these islands as to make black & white statements like "You're Irish" and we're Britis as good as useless. People identify within these islands as to their own feelings of Irishness or Britishness.

Again...who disagrees with this simple reality HC?

You choose to identify as you wish. Nobody here has an issue with that.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again...who disagrees with this simple reality HC?

You choose to identify as you wish. Nobody here has an issue with that.

He just like stating the same point incessantly.