How long before Irish reunification?

jm08

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Why is this important? Well in the context of trying to woo the Unionist folk of Northern Ireland away from the United Kingdom one must first identify who they are, and they say they are British..

According to wiki on NI national identity.

- Early 20th century, most Ulster Protestants and Catholics saw themselves as Irish with a strong sense of British identity (rather like Anglo-Irish in rest of country).

- This started to change with the onset of home rule, protestants Irish identity was abandoned. Before the troubles started, 39% described themselves as British, 20% as Irish and 32% chose an Ulster identity.

By 1978, 67% were calling themselves British and 8% Irish.

In 1998 in a survey of students, one of the main reasons for saying 'Northern Irish' was to overcome sectarian division and appear neutral. It also says that now being 'Northern Irish' has a different meaning to catholics and protestants. Some surveys show that those who choose 'Northern Irish' to identify regard their identity as less important than choosing British and Irish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland

Be careful Downcow that you don't 'weaponise' the Northern Irish identity!

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So if we have a UI...what are people born in the northern Ireland going to be called?

Irish I presume.

If Northern Ireland has left the United Kingdom, then the people will be Irish and they will all carry Irish passports. If that's what they vote for...

Border poll and all that jazz.

Downcow might expand on this?

Redgirl82

How many posts on this today and now someone post the census which I made reference to at whatever time this morning

So what’s the confusion? They asked the people in North they gave an answer yet your all still bickering about it...seems kinda strange to me

How many of your actually live in the North? Apart from Downcow of course

blinding

10-15 years

Ye are so Irish, ye love arguing just as much as any Irish !

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Irish I presume.

If Northern Ireland has left the United Kingdom, then the people will be Irish and they will all carry Irish passports. If that's what they vote for...

Border poll and all that jazz.

Downcow might expand on this?

They can all carry Irish passports as it is. They meet the international requirements for holding the passports of any country - they were born there.
There is a clue there for you.

jm08

20-30 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

How many posts on this today and now someone post the census which I made reference to at whatever time this morning

So what’s the confusion? They asked the people in North they gave an answer yet your all still bickering about it...seems kinda strange to me

How many of your actually live in the North? Apart from Downcow of course

If you look at what gets thrown up in the census, nationality seems to be fairly fluid in Northern Ireland.

RobMc59

10-15 years

jm08 wrote: »

If you look at what gets thrown up in the census, nationality seems to be fairly fluid in Northern Ireland.

Looking from the outside,I`d say the people of NI have the best of both worlds.I`d bet there`s not many places you have a choice of nationalities/passports etc.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They can all carry Irish passports as it is. They meet the international requirements for holding the passports of any country - they were born there.
There is a clue there for you.

A clue?

You mean like because the they're all born in Northern Ireland they're all Irish anyway, and not British at all ?

Downcow will love this

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

A clue?

You mean like because the they're all born in Northern Ireland they're all Irish anyway, and not British at all ?

Downcow will love this

They are Irish and identify as British and will still be able to do that in a UI.

Do you think the British would abandon them if they thought they were British?
The British are off the opinion, 'It is for the people of Ireland to decide their fate, without outside impediment'.
They very much see themselves (British) as outsiders. No squaring that circle.

Hamsterchops

"They are Irish" but identify as British

So the baseline is that they are Irish.

Does Arlene Foster know about this?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

"They are Irish" but identify as British

So the baseline is that they are Irish.

Does Arlene Foster know about this?

I'm sure Arlene has the same common sense as Paisley and Trimble before her on this issue.

Hamsterchops

So all this fuss about them being British with their Union flags and singing God Save the Queen is all a big misunderstanding, or a lie?

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are Irish and identify as British and will still be able to do that in a UI.

Do you think the British would abandon them if they thought they were British?
The British are off the opinion, 'It is for the people of Ireland to decide their fate, without outside impediment'.
They very much see themselves (British) as outsiders. No squaring that circle.

That`s the way it should be but will you acknowledge Ireland has stated it has no claim on the territory known as NI and recognises NI is part of the UK?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are Irish and identify as British and will still be able to do that in a UI.

Do you think the British would abandon them if they thought they were British?
The British are off the opinion, 'It is for the people of Ireland to decide their fate, without outside impediment'.
They very much see themselves (British) as outsiders. No squaring that circle.

I think under British law everyone born in the north is British by default. In the DeSouza case an exception was made for her partner.

I doubt many SF MLA's have renounced their nationality so they are all technically British who identify as Irish.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

That`s the way it should be but will you acknowledge Ireland has stated it has no claim on the territory known as NI and recognises NI is part of the UK?

Ireland aspires to unify the territory that was partitioned and accepts that at the moment the majority wish NI to remain a part of the UK.

That's what I agreed to in the GFA.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Irish people don’t want the North.

Polls have consistently shown a majority in favour of ending partition. Plenty of people in the north are Irish too. The fact that you try to deny the Irish nationality of people in the north displays that you have a poor understanding of what it means to be Irish.

Also, you'll note that terms Irish/Ireland, the flag, the anthem, the culture, the language, the 1916 proclamation, the anti-colonial resistance all predate partition.

If you don't want to end partition then go stand with the Unionists and stop appropriating the artefacts and trappings of the Irish nation.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I think under British law everyone born in the north is British by default. In the DeSouza case an exception was made for her partner.

I doubt many SF MLA's have renounced their nationality so they are all technically British who identify as Irish.

I have long since accepted this.

The anomaly of partition and the GFA is that the Irish people born in NI have to choose an identity to acquire legal citizenship and a passport. They can choose to identify as Irish or as British.

Because downcow is one of these unique Irish people he can apply for both a British or an Irish passport and qualify for it, because the place of his birth (Ireland) qualifies him automatically for one...nobody in the passport office cares(or rather, is allowed to care) what he 'identifies as'.

Redgirl82

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Polls have consistently shown a majority in favour of ending partition. Plenty of people in the north are Irish too. The fact that you try to deny the Irish nationality of people in the north displays that you have a poor understanding of what it means to be Irish.

Also, you'll note that terms Irish/Ireland, the flag, the anthem, the culture, the language, the 1916 proclamation, the anti-colonial resistance all predate partition.

If you don't want to end partition then go stand with the Unionists and stop appropriating the artefacts and trappings of the Irish nation.

Did you read my posts? When did I try to deny the Irish nationality?

As per my second post, I referred to the census and said people in north say they are British, Irish and Northern Irish. This was in response to a post that said they are just irish. I am not denying them anything. I am just pointing out what the people of Northern Ireland said

Do you understand?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have long since accepted this.

The anomaly of partition and the GFA is that the Irish people born in NI have to choose an identity to acquire legal citizenship and a passport. They can choose to identify as Irish or as British.

Because downcow is one of these unique Irish people he can apply for both a British or an Irish passport and qualify for it, because the place of his birth (Ireland) qualifies him automatically for one...nobody in the passport office cares(or rather, is allowed to care) what he 'identifies as'.

While basing nationality on geographical terms might offer comfort for SF supporters given they became part of the partitionist NI system, in practical terms legal definitions are more important as highlighted by the DeSouza case

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

While basing nationality on geographical terms might offer comfort for SF supporters given they became part of the partitionist NI system, in practical terms legal definitions are more important as highlighted by the DeSouza case

I think you'll find that many republicans...SF included accepted the right of the majority to choose. They didn't accept the legitimacy of the British presence and that can be seen in the continued working towards a UI.

Personally I am glad a peace deal was found. I think some preferred the conflict or think it nobler in some way.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you'll find that many republicans...SF included accepted the right of the majority to choose. They didn't accept the legitimacy of the British presence and that can be seen in the continued working towards a UI.

Personally I am glad a peace deal was found. I think some preferred the conflict or think it nobler in some way.

What's your opinion on Dissidents? They are after all former "comrades " lauded by the exact same people prior to the GFA.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

What's your opinion on Dissidents? They are after all former "comrades " lauded by the exact same people prior to the GFA.

Dissidents need to accept the GFA and trust that it will progress.

FrancieBrady

15-20 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dissidents need to accept the GFA and trust that it will progress.

It wont....the brits wont ever agree to hold a border poll peacefully


To my mind,the criteria to hold one has been met,but none forthcoming.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dissidents need to accept the GFA and trust that it will progress.

But morally speaking , what makes a bomb planted by the same man a few years apart less acceptable to you?

jh79

15-20 years

jh79 wrote: »

But morally speaking , what makes a bomb planted by the same man a few years apart less acceptable to you?

Or by old ira,or fenians before them...its grade A hyprocrisy across irish politics


(But being said,personally think violence wont work now,but becomes impossible to condemn longer it geos on,with no border poll)

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

But morally speaking , what makes a bomb planted by the same man a few years apart less acceptable to you?

Planting bombs was never acceptable to me.
The conflict/war is over.

Hamsterchops

Deleted User wrote: »

Or by old ira,or fenians before them...its grade A hyprocrisy across irish politics

(But being said, personally think violence wont work now, but becomes impossible to condemn longer it geos on, with no border poll)

Yeah, humm, not sure what's going on here :cool:

A bit worrying if it suggests that bombs were ok, but not anymore? Bombing was never alright.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Planting bombs was never acceptable to me.
The conflict/war is over.

I'll frame it another way so. Have the Real IRA the same right to wage a war as the IRA and if not why not?

jh79

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or by old ira,or fenians before them...its grade A hyprocrisy across irish politics


(But being said,personally think violence wont work now,but becomes impossible to condemn longer it geos on,with no border poll)

At least your honest about it.

Hamsterchops

15-20 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Yeah, humm, not sure what's going on here :cool:

A bit worrying if it suggests that bombs were ok, but not anymore? Bombing was never alright.

Indeed...i await your.condemnation of bombing nazis or iraq,or isis by the brits

Be interesting to see your level of hyprocrisy